Fandom A Song of Ice and Fire RP (Game of Thrones)

[WanderingJester]

Also I though Nagito was said to be tier 5 and that Aemond is on a completely different level (tier 6) so when did he suddenly boost up to that level because even you said he doesn't compare to somebody like Aemond, Jester.
So in all honesty while Nagito would be able to beat pretty much anyone 1v1 I think Roland and Trevir, the two most skill based PCs would be more than a match for him as hes being attacked by 2 people not just 1.

I was thinking of closer to top of Tier 5, and as I've mentioned approaching the line between Tier 5-6 (again the tier system's really subjective depending on who's using it, even if we all look at the same one). The conversation I worked off of with Archon (at least from my pov) was the idea that if we go with what hesaid about if Nagito could arguably beat Arthur Dayne (which I stated earlier is unlikely, as I put Arthur Dayne with the level of Aemon). In regard to Nagito vs Roland and Trevir, I would say he can still beat them, but would take serious injuries that would make him much much easier to kill by the next guy that comes along.

You're purposefully neglecting the different wars and hostilities between protestants and catholics later down the line in Europe, and the fierce compeition to destroy one another. And that's from a very minor shift in religion compared to the Crusades which called Kings and peasants over, Hell. The Children's Crusade was even a thing (that ended horribly,). If there's one thing the post-Christian West has shown, it's that religious tolerance is very thin ice. With cracks in it.
Sure, they have essentially longswords that double as spears, and spears. But heavy infantry makes use of pikes, as similar weapon. And there's still the warriors pride and honor, but the code of honor is another over stated falsehood. The Japanese have shown to be brutal and uncaring in past offenses, be it on Korean or Chinese soil, or to each other. They have lost and fled, broken from battles too. Only the very best really had this honor on exceptional levels, the peasants are the same no matter where you go. They have some honor, sure, but that's not the reason they're fighting. It's because they owe it to their feudal lords.

No really neglecting different wars on purpose. The Middle Ages changed rapidly since it began and when it ended, and I went with the high era of Medieval Wars. If I went with the armies of Japan at 16th century against the armies of Europe at the same time period, the tech level of the European would have far exceeded that of Japan. I understand the few shift in religion could cause mad fanaticism, but that's specific even if you want to talk about the Germanic civil war that came with the Reformation. They had to specifically fight an enemy that's of a different doctrine than them (which would be the case here but), I think the Eastern army holds the same standard for all enemies they encountered.


They also have the kanabo, a massive bludgeon that can work just as well as any mace from the West. I'm not discounting the brutality of the Japanese or that they're immune from acts of cowardice, just that in my opinion the Eastern Armies have a bit more fear resistance throughout their ranks on the battlefield than high era of Medieval armies, even if the main motivation to fight was to obey their feudal lords and not be killed for treason or something. Honestly, it's more of a personal preference in regard to perspectives than anything really. *shrug*

And interesting weapon for him to learn if it exist in game of thrones is a Japanese Naginata if there is a Yi Ti version. It would probably work better for him then just a straight spear

Probably is one, that's interesting that it would work better for him than a straight spear. Guessing the Yari isn't his cup of tea then?

 

[WanderingJester]

Also I thought Nagito was said to be tier 5 and that Aemond is on a completely different level (tier 6) so when did he suddenly boost up to that level because even you said he doesn't compare to somebody like Aemond, Jester.
So in all honesty while Nagito would be able to beat pretty much anyone 1v1 I think Roland and Trevir, the two most skill based PCs in westeros would be more than a match for him as hes being attacked by 2 people not just 1.

Actually I take back what I said in the last post. Nagito can kill Martyn with two sword strokes (1 if he's seen Martyn fight before). Against Roland and Trevir, unless they're really in sync with each other, one of them would be dead very quickly into the fight, and the other to follow after, especially against the Yi Tish's V-Steel katana and wakizashi.

 

[Leusis]

I was thinking of closer to top of Tier 5, and as I've mentioned approaching the line between Tier 5-6 (again the tier system's really subjective depending on who's using it, even if we all look at the same one). The conversation I worked off of with Archon (at least from my pov) was the idea that if we go with what hesaid about if Nagito could arguably beat Arthur Dayne (which I stated earlier is unlikely, as I put Arthur Dayne with the level of Aemon). In regard to Nagito vs Roland and Trevir, I would say he can still beat them, but would take serious injuries that would make him much much easier to kill by the next guy that comes along.

I might give it to him due to the fact he has two V-steel swords. However if he didn't have them for whatever reason I'd give it to Roland and Trevir because a katana is essentially useless against both of their armor.

 

[Akio]

I was thinking of closer to top of Tier 5, and as I've mentioned approaching the line between Tier 5-6 (again the tier system's really subjective depending on who's using it, even if we all look at the same one). The conversation I worked off of with Archon (at least from my pov) was the idea that if we go with what hesaid about if Nagito could arguably beat Arthur Dayne (which I stated earlier is unlikely, as I put Arthur Dayne with the level of Aemon). In regard to Nagito vs Roland and Trevir, I would say he can still beat them, but would take serious injuries that would make him much much easier to kill by the next guy that comes along.
No really neglecting different wars on purpose. The Middle Ages changed rapidly since it began and when it ended, and I went with the high era of Medieval Wars. If I went with the armies of Japan at 16th century against the armies of Europe at the same time period, the tech level of the European would have far exceeded that of Japan. I understand the few shift in religion could cause mad fanaticism, but that's specific even if you want to talk about the Germanic civil war that came with the Reformation. They had to specifically fight an enemy that's of a different doctrine than them (which would be the case here but), I think the Eastern army holds the same standard for all enemies they encountered.


They also have the kanabo, a massive bludgeon that can work just as well as any mace from the West. I'm not discounting the brutality of the Japanese or that they're immune from acts of cowardice, just that in my opinion the Eastern Armies have a bit more fear resistance throughout their ranks on the battlefield than high era of Medieval armies, even if the main motivation to fight was to obey their feudal lords and not be killed for treason or something. Honestly, it's more of a personal preference in regard to perspectives than anything really. *shrug*


Probably is one, that's interesting that it would work better for him than a straight spear. Guessing the Yari isn't his cup of tea then?

Ethier or is better then a regular spear since the Yari can use the guard to catch or even break blades and work in good tangent with his knives but it would suffer slightly outside of single combat or fighting in a line. The Naginta has more weight but also hits harder and can cut easier then a spear being a cutting weapon which makes it easier to fight multiple opponents. Not to mention hes trained in spear fighting so its not to much of a stretch between them in terms of skill of use and probably be more useful then his current spear is against an armed knight

 

[Leusis]

@WanderingJester


Its also not very fair to compare Roland and Martyn as Roland has a much higher skill level than Martyn. The only thing that puts the two on par is the pure physical edge Martyn holds over Roland. Same goes for Trevir really.

 

[WanderingJester]

@WanderingJester
Its also not very fair to compare Roland and Martyn as Roland has a much higher skill level than Martyn. The only thing that puts the two on par is the pure physical edge Martyn holds over Roland. Same goes for Trevir really.

Yes, but I'm using the overall combat level of Martyn to compare them together. I recall that essentially Martyn and Roland would kill each other in fight if they ever went head to head, so I assumed they were of the same combat capacity in regards to overall standings. Martyn might have more strength to balance himself to Roland's skill and experience, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's less of a warrior than Roland. He's still very skilled and talented like the others, and I know for sure even if he stood side by side with Roland, he'll probably get killed in two sword strokes from Nagito, and Roland would indeed follow suit (perhaps not as quickly) once Nagito focuses his attention on him fully. To say that Roland and Trevir would have a better chance to go against Nagito simply due to skill (even though Fezzes said that Trevir would have less of and edge in a melee against Martyn) is unfair to me.

I might give it to him due to the fact he has two V-steel swords. However if he didn't have them for whatever reason I'd give it to Roland and Trevir because a katana is essentially useless against both of their armor.

He's still nearly inhumanly fast and accurate. A steel katana can still go through a visor, or through the thinner materials on the wrists of a set of plate armor.

Ethier or is better then a regular spear since the Yari can use the guard to catch or even break blades and work in good tangent with his knives but it would suffer slightly outside of single combat or fighting in a line. The Naginta has more weight but also hits harder and can cut easier then a spear being a cutting weapon which makes it easier to fight multiple opponents. Not to mention hes trained in spear fighting so its not to much of a stretch between them in terms of skill of use and probably be more useful then his current spear is against an armed knight

Fair enough, just wondering the choice of Naginata over the Yari for myself.

 

[Leusis]

I also feel as though you are seriously misunderstanding Roland's level of skill with a blade. The man is a completely average knight physically but is still able to fight on par with physical beasts like Martyn while Martyn is still a highly skilled swordsman. Roland was meant to be similar to that of Barristan in his prime (though obviously not quite as good) and I'd put him very close to the edge of tier 4 going into tier 5. (tiers being completely subjective). I'm not sure about Trevir but he seems to essentially just be a younger version of Roland just with quicker feet, similar to how Loras is compared to a younger Jaime. I'm pretty sure the two of them would give Nagito one hell of a fight and it seems like you're basing Nagito's superiority over other characters completely on this fantasy that samurai are just better warriors than knights.

 

[Akio]

Yes, but I'm using the overall combat level of Martyn to compare them together. I recall that essentially Martyn and Roland would kill each other in fight if they ever went head to head, so I assumed they were of the same combat capacity in regards to overall standings. Martyn might have more strength to balance himself to Roland's skill and experience, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's less of a warrior than Roland. He's still very skilled and talented like the others, and I know for sure even if he stood side by side with Roland, he'll probably get killed in two sword strokes from Nagito, and Roland would indeed follow suit (perhaps not as quickly) once Nagito focuses his attention on him fully. To say that Roland and Trevir would have a better chance to go against Nagito simply due to skill (even though Fezzes said that Trevir would have less of and edge in a melee against Martyn) is unfair to me.
He's still nearly inhumanly fast and accurate. A steel katana can still go through a visor, or through the thinner materials on the wrists of a set of plate armor.


Fair enough, just wondering the choice of Naginata over the Yari for myself.

Besides I had a character before use the Naginata, seems like as good as weapon as any that Cayden could get in Westeros if he uses a spear type weapon. What do you prefer?

 

[Leusis]

also you're forgetting the fact a man who is far superior to one man could struggle against two of those kinds of men due to the simple fact as we've both stated "blocking two swords is a lot harder than one".

 

[Akio]

also you're forgetting the fact a man who is far superior to one man could struggle against two of those kinds of men due to the simple fact as we've both stated "blocking two swords is a lot harder than one".

Thats why how fast he kills one is essential, if he kills of them in one or two sword blows then the battle is easily his. If not it will take longer

 

[WanderingJester]

I also feel as though you are seriously misunderstanding Roland's level of skill with a blade. The man is a completely average knight physically but is still able to fight on par with physical beasts like Martyn while Martyn is still a highly skilled swordsman. Roland was meant to be similar to that of Barristan in his prime (though obviously not quite as good) and I'd put him very close to the edge of tier 4 going into tier 5. (tiers being completely subjective). I'm not sure about Trevir but he seems to essentially just be a younger version of Roland just with quicker feet, similar to how Loras is compared to a younger Jaime. I'm pretty sure the two of them would give Nagito one hell of a fight and it seems like you're basing Nagito's superiority over other characters completely on this fantasy that samurai are just better warriors than knights.

I always took Roland as a younger Barristan, but not necessarily Selmy at his prime. If that's true then Roland should be dead center in the middle of Tier 5, since that's where all (I think) the gm's agree where Prime Barristan is, which isn't the case with Roland. Trevir's a jouster, Fezze admitted himself. He's a hell of warrior on foot or mounted combat, capable of beating many many different people on the field, but again he would probably lose an edge on foot against Roland or Martyn. This isn't like random knight vs random samurai fight. This is Jaime Lannister vs Miyamoto Musashi, the best (in regards to intelligence, skill, physical conditioning, etc.) samurai to have ever lived, combined with the exaggeration that's common in ASoIaF. The man carved a wooden katana out of a spare oar and beat his rival, one of the most skilled and feared warrior of the time, to death with it in real life. I'm based Nagito's skills combined with elements of ASoIaF on him.

Besides I had a character before use the Naginata, seems like as good as weapon as any that Cayden could get in Westeros if he uses a spear type weapon. What do you prefer?

Fair enough, really depends on how Cayden attacks. Yari's better for thrusts and using the blunt end as a bludgeon, where as the Naginata is great for slicing and I think is slightly longer.

also you're forgetting the fact a man who is far superior to one man could struggle against two of those kinds of men due to the simple fact as we've both stated "blocking two swords is a lot harder than one".

Yes, I agree, though I would also say that moving out of the way of two swords (talking about a step back out of range, not dodging) is much simpler than trying to block with your own weapon, which is what Nagito would do in that situation.

 

[Leusis]

Roland was meant to be similar to that of Barristan in his prime (though obviously not quite as good)

I said Roland is similar to Barristan in his prime but not quite as good and thus the bordering of tier 5 instead of being in the middle of the tier 5 pack.

Yes, I agree, though I would also say that moving out of the way of two swords (talking about a step back out of range, not dodging) is much simpler than trying to block with your own weapon, which is what Nagito would do in that situation.

Based on this post Nagito has just been forced backwards by their attacks and thus is classified as on the defense. Sure he can try to counter but the problem with that is if Trevir can manage to block the first strike or even just two from Nagito that gives Roland plenty of time to attack Nagito while hes focused on Trevir.

This is Jaime Lannister vs Miyamoto Musashi, the best (in regards to intelligence, skill, physical conditioning, etc.) samurai to have ever lived, combined with the exaggeration that's common in ASoIaF. The man carved a wooden katana out of a spare oar and beat his rival, one of the most skilled and feared warrior of the time, to death with it. I'm based Nagito's skills combined with elements of ASoIaF on him.

Miyamoto Musashi was a truly ridiculous historical figure and I know this because I've studied his life and even read his book (The Book of Five Rings). Its true that he was extremely skilled but he was a duelest more than anything else, capable of beating essentially anybody in Japan at the time 1v1. The only instance that we know of where he fought multiple men by himself was his 1v10. But that was fought against students at a sword school who hadn't completed their training and were filled with rage due to the fact Miyamoto had just killed their master a few days ago in a duel. Miyamoto even stated that they were foolishly charging him in a straight line instead of trying to surround him and attack in unison and thats what got them all killed. I'm even agreeing that Nagito would win due to his V-steel weapons, I'm just saying that he would have an incredibly hard time with this fight and would likely be injured severely and possibly die if he wasn't treated by anybody.

 

[Akio]

Fair enough, really depends on how Cayden attacks. Yari's better for thrusts and using the blunt end as a bludgeon, where as the Naginata is great for slicing and I think is slightly longer.

Unfortunately especially in live combat thrusts again place armor find themselves not only a lot less useful but easier to have the spear cut apart in close range. With a thrust Cayden as to thrust and pull back the blow. A Naginata Carey's enough weight to strike plate without denting and enough force to possible even cut through or break bones in joints and weaker parts of armor like arm guards. With a Naginata not only would he have an easier time blocking multiple blows in different directions but he could be constantly moving with a slicing motion making the best use of his speed and skill

 

[WanderingJester]

I said Roland is similar to Barristan in his prime but not quite as good and thus the bordering of tier 5 instead of being in the middle of the tier 5 pack.
Based on this post Nagito has just been forced backwards by their attacks and thus is classified as on the defense. Sure he can try to counter but the problem with that is if Trevir can manage to block the first strike or even just two from Nagito that gives Roland plenty of time to attack Nagito while hes focused on Trevir.


Miyamoto Musashi was a truly ridiculous historical figure and I know this because I've studied his life and even read his book (The Book of Five Rings). Its true that he was extremely skilled but he was a duelest more than anything else, capable of beating essentially anybody in Japan at the time 1v1. The only instance that we know of where he fought multiple men by himself was his 1v10. But that was fought against students at a sword school who hadn't completed their training and were filled with rage due to the fact Miyamoto had just killed their master a few days ago in a duel. Miyamoto even stated that they were foolishly charging him in a straight line instead of trying to surround him and attack in unison and thats what got them all killed. I'm even agreeing that Nagito would win due to his V-steel weapons, I'm just saying that he would have an incredibly hard time with this fight and would likely be injured severely and possibly die if he wasn't treated by anybody.

I really don't think he's that high, because if Roland's that high on the Tier 4 then so would Martyn and Trevir, with Tiberious somewhere slightly behind them. Then again, the tier system as you've said is subjective so I suppose it all a matter of opinion after all, and it's really more of an agree to disagree point here.


Then Trevir's follow through to one of his attacks creates an opening and Nagito steps to the side where the Arryn's between him and Roland and the V-Steel katana, which was at ready the whole time since it wasn't even defecting the blows, takes his head clean off (or at the very least slices his throat open). Hypothetical fights are really kind of hard to really speculate on (especially with disagreeing views), and I rather not go down that road honestly.


Yes, but Nagito is exaggerated Miyamoto Musashi (ASoIaF style). I've also read about him and I can agree with what you're saying. I just don't agree that while Martyn gets killed by this man so easily, even if he was to be teamed up with Roland or Trevir, they wouldn't have the same amount of trouble when it comes to fighting the Yi Tish. Nagito fights damn near perfectly, and Roland, Martyn and Trevir (pretty much everyone else) doesn't. So one mistake anywhere would cost Roland and Trevir, whether a finger or a leg, and this could be the katana cutting the tendons of less protected areas. Even with the 2v1 advantage, Nagito could, say, stick his katana into Trevir's leg (something he might not be guarding since he's used to the added protection there against usual steel weapons, not V-Steel), disable him, contend with Roland 1v1 essentially, then finish off Trevir since he'll either be hopping around on one leg or immobilized at that point. Though, again, could happen completely differently, since hypothetical fights aren't really my thing.

Unfortunately especially in live combat thrusts again place armor find themselves not only a lot less useful but easier to have the spear cut apart in close range. With a thrust Cayden as to thrust and pull back the blow. A Naginata Carey's enough weight to strike plate without denting and enough force to possible even cut through or break bones in joints and weaker parts of armor like arm guards. With a Naginata not only would he have an easier time blocking multiple blows in different directions but he could be constantly moving with a slicing motion making the best use of his speed and skill

Fair enough. All fair points I think.

 

[Leusis]

In all honesty I think you underestimate Martyn as your own character for whatever reason. You've described him as a man with the strength of Sandor but the speed/agility of Jaime. The only thing he really seems to lack is experience and technique. So in other words he lacks the two things that are Roland's strongest assets, thus why Roland can compete with him.


But as you've already described him he seems to be a character that borders on tier 5 if you acknowledge it or not.


I think it's mostly the fact you seem to think Nagito would escape this 2v1 without a drop of sweat let alone an injury that bothers me. These would be 2 of the best warriors Westeros has to offer and Nagito would treat them like children? Either you need to lower your standards for a high level tier 5 or you need to acknowledge he is in fact on par with the likes of Aemond.

 

[WanderingJester]

In all honesty I think you underestimate Martyn as your own character for whatever reason. You've described him as a man with the strength of Sandor but the speed/agility of Jaime. The only thing he really seems to lack is experience and technique. So in other words he lacks the two things that are Roland's strongest assets, thus why Roland can compete with him.
But as you've already described him he seems to be a character that borders on tier 5 if you acknowledge it or not.


I think it's mostly the fact you seem to think Nagito would escape this 2v1 without a drop of sweat let alone an injury that bothers me. These would be 2 of the best warriors Westeros has to offer and Nagito would treat them like children? Either you need to lower your standards for a high level tier 5 or you need to acknowledge he is in fact on par with the likes of Aemond.

Fair enough, I do think you've got a point there in regards to where I place Martyn, and I can see that your placement of him on the (still pretty much hypothetical really) tier system is correct. The only thing I'll point out with what you said is that Martyn's slightly stronger than Sandor (an example from before about how much is if he and sandor both went to a modern gym and lifted weights, Martyn would be able to bench/curl/lift 5-10 lbs heavier).


I wouldn't go so far as to say Nagito won't sweat in terms of the 2v1 since it will be much more difficult of a fight than he's had (probably ever). I still think that he'll be injury free, though he might be moving much more than if he fought the 2v1 with Martyn in it instead of one of the duo. The fight would be longer against Roland and Trevir as well. This was a good wake up call since I ID'd Nagito with the tier system I had referenced while keeping his actual ability in what I had him in my mind, which is literally a living legend well on his way to becoming like Aemon or Arthur Dayne. So I apologize for that, since I subconsciously typed one thing while thinking of another. Though the others (especially GMs) might not agree, he's really up there with the historical figures the way I've thought about him as I made the CS.

 

[Leusis]

I'm glad we could come to some type of agreement during this discussion. I'm not sure anybody else will agree with us but that's a matter for another time.

 

[WanderingJester]

I'm glad we could come to some type of agreement during this discussion. I'm not sure anybody else will agree with us but that's a matter for another time.

Me too. It's so easy on the internet to just dismiss the other person as "wrong" for their opinion that sometimes it's difficult to hold civil and intelligent conversations. I'm glad we've both held out our points and listened to the other side and replied in turn, with respect. Many a times conversations like this turn into heated arguments that ends up either with insults or covering of eyes and ears and going "blah blah blah." Very good example of constructive forum going on we just had.

 

[Leusis]

And now that I've had a constructive conversation I'm gonna go to bed.

 

[Mion]

All this talk of hypothetical fights makes me hungry... I think I'll take a chicken.

 

[Archon]

All this talk of hypothetical fights makes me hungry... I think I'll take a chicken.

Make that two chickens.

 

[Mion]

Make that two chickens.

If I hear any more words pouring out of your (word rp nation has censors for no reason) mouth, I'm going to need to eat every fucking chicken.

 

[Mion]

Should I make a Harlaw post soon or?


Don't want to leave stuff too long.

 

[Hypnos]

@HuorSpinks Any updates on the funeral mate? We're kind of waiting on you.

 

[Akio]

You know kind of wonder who leads Highgarden now