Fandom A Song of Ice and Fire RP (Game of Thrones)

[Archon]

Wait, am I supposed to do that?


I mean, I'll end up writing a thesis what with the hundreds of Frey's in existence.


Anyway, I fail to see what your trying to put across to me here. This is Riverlands vs Westerlands, not Westerlands vs The Crossing. Do you realize how log it would take to completely dismantle to huge ass castles using basic siege equipment like catapults and trebuchets? You'd starve them out before leveling a quarter of the Twins.


And again, I didn't mention the Northern armies, I mentioned the terrain just North of the Twins, if Tiber wants to go directly to the twins pat the Crossroad Inn roadway he HAS to take 10,000 men though several miles of marshland, unless he travels far enough North to re-enter the Kingsroad, but that wastes a lot of time and would earn a response from the North most likely.


This fairy tale talk of Martyn and Roland catting swathed through men is also a little ridiculous, they aren't superhumans. They don't have limitless endurance, and a lucky hit is all it takes for any Lionsguard to bite the dust and weaken their defense. Even the most skilled fighters can die to the most unskilled just through bad luck, and why would Martyn and roland doing well in battle affect Frey morale? Nobody would care, since every able bodied person would be fighting for their life, not watching a spectacle of their friends die to two "superhuman" individuals.


This is Tiber vs the Riverlands, I say again. Not Tiber vs the Freys. It doesn't end at Riverrun, every other vassal would rally against his force, moreso that for all the rivalry between the Brackens and Blackwood they aren't disloyal; Tiber can't just click his figers, and have half of Walder's vassals in his pocket.


I think you're vastly underestimating how powerful the Riverlands actually are if they have the home field advantage. Tywin was raiding the villages in the books and TV series, but there was no mention of him winning some large battle. Which Tiber would be forced into if he tried to Zerg Riverrun or the Twins.

 

[Leusis]

If you want to kill a man in platemail from farther away than 30 yards you're going to need a well made crossbow or a blackpowder weapon.

 

[Hypnos]

Wait, am I supposed to do that?
I mean, I'll end up writing a thesis what with the hundreds of Frey's in existence.


Anyway, I fail to see what your trying to put across to me here. This is Riverlands vs Westerlands, not Westerlands vs The Crossing. Do you realize how log it would take to completely dismantle to huge ass castles using basic siege equipment like catapults and trebuchets? You'd starve them out before leveling a quarter of the Twins.


And again, I didn't mention the Northern armies, I mentioned the terrain just North of the Twins, if Tiber wants to go directly to the twins pat the Crossroad Inn roadway he HAS to take 10,000 men though several miles of marshland, unless he travels far enough North to re-enter the Kingsroad, but that wastes a lot of time and would earn a response from the North most likely.


This fairy tale talk of Martyn and Roland catting swathed through men is also a little ridiculous, they aren't superhumans. They don't have limitless endurance, and a lucky hit is all it takes for any Lionsguard to bite the dust and weaken their defense. Even the most skilled fighters can die to the most unskilled just through bad luck, and why would Martyn and roland doing well in battle affect Frey morale? Nobody would care, since every able bodied person would be fighting for their life, not watching a spectacle of their friends die to two "superhuman" individuals.


This is Tiber vs the Riverlands, I say again. Not Tiber vs the Freys. It doesn't end at Riverrun, every other vassal would rally against his force, moreso that for all the rivalry between the Brackens and Blackwood they aren't disloyal; Tiber can't just click his figers, and have half of Walder's vassals in his pocket.


I think you're vastly underestimating how powerful the Riverlands actually are if they have the home field advantage. Tywin was raiding the villages in the books and TV series, but there was no mention of him winning some large battle. Which Tiber would be forced into if he tried to Zerg Riverrun or the Twins.

I'm sorry man but you're on your own here. If you're too good to participate in my wars then I'm just going to let Tiber Lannister have your head.

 

[Akio]

Well they better have a bodkin arrow nocked and be within 20-30 yards of the man they're shooting, because thats what it'll take to punch through platemail and even then the average puncture is only about an inch deep (generally not deadly).

What if they had a crossbow or Goldenheart bow or Dragonbone bow? Goldenheart or Dragonbone or maybe even a recurve bow fired from a bit closer, probably have the same power as a crossbow

 

[Archon]

I'm sorry man but you're on your own here. If you're too good to participate in my wars then I'm just going to let Tiber Lannister have your head.

Well, Okay...


Hypothetically speaking, The Twins get rolled over in a day by 40,000 Lannisters who go home happy, and well-fed with maybe a few menial thousand losses.


Now, In-Character speaking; Walder can go suck an apple, and the Vale can have the Riverlands. Now you totally don't get Frey support.

 

[Leusis]

@Archon


We didn't once say that Martyn or Roland are superhuman and we aren't saying they can't die. I'm just stating the facts that Martyn and Roland would be much more difficult to kill than pretty much everybody else in the battle other than the actual leaders like Tiber and Lord Frey. I stated they could kill roughly 50 men each, I also stated that this is if the battle lasts long enough for them to do so and they don't get injured or have to retreat. You seem to be getting upset over absolutely nothing when I've stated several times that its definitely possible for either of them to get unlucky and be killed. Also the whole thing of Martyn and Roland not being able to cause morale damage is completely incorrect. It has been proven in history many times that men that are considered great warriors or leaders do cause morale damage to their enemies. If you're fighting a battle and see some man cut down to or three men in front of you down like they're nothing then there is a good chance you don't want to fight him. That fear is what causes men to route during a battle. If what you say is true then every single battle in history has been fought until one side was completely killed off.

 

[SirDerpingtonIV]

If you want to kill a man in platemail from farther away than 30 yards you're going to need a well made crossbow or a blackpowder weapon.

Agincourt

 

[Leusis]

@Akio Both of those bows probably have around the same power as a crossbow, but theres also the fact likely nobody or maybe a few people in Westeros own either types of those bows

 

[Akio]

@Akio Both of those bows probably have around the same power as a crossbow, but theres also the fact likely nobody or maybe a few people in Westeros own either types of those bows

Fair enough. I think house hunter has at least one Dragonbone bow and if my guys ever go to Drone they will have one but i cant think of anyone else

 

[Hypnos]

Well, Okay...
Hypothetically speaking, The Twins get rolled over in a day by 40,000 Lannisters who go home happy, and well-fed with maybe a few menial thousand losses.


Now, In-Character speaking; Walder can go suck an apple, and the Vale can have the Riverlands. Now you totally don't get Frey support.

Really it depends on whether Egyll is actually offering any men to Walder's cause, if he's not then nothing is lost anyway and the Twins being taken would be irrelevant to a Vale victory , if he is then he would probably help him out of the situation. Ignoring Walders call to arms and "Just waiting it out" is treason and if you don't offer men and Breadon wins then you've lost your head, (Honestly Breadon is the best choice for ruler right now since most of the other candidates are unknown so Frey should side with him anyway)


I don't get where all of these talks of the Tullys and Freys being at odd come from anyway, I've said at length in the past why Walder was justified in the Red Wedding and hating the Tullys but non of that hold any truth in this RP and I'd imagine Walder (Tully) would be quite friendly with Lord Frey especially considering him and his son are named after Walder Frey (Who since the great Lord Walder doesn't exist in this RP I'm going to pretend was the man who built the Twins) Walder only names his family members after those he considers personal heroes and famous Riverlands (Except Adele who just happens to be really awkward)

 

[Archon]

That's because your treating these two top tier fighters like superhumans, as I said - they don't have unlimited endurance, it's insane how fatiguing sword-fighting really is, and 50 men even after a long amount of time seems ridiculous. You also missed my point on the morale, the Freys are not going to care here because as the saying goes "Never surround an enemy, or they'll fight with nothing to lose." In a pitched battle, I'm sure they'd route. But this is for all terms of the word, a Last stand. The Frey army has nowhere to run, and is completely surrounded on both forts. So they aren't going to be deterred by two enemy soldiers doing marginally well.


Hell, I know GRRM said it, but Jaime taking down 20 men before being captured is so incredibly ridiculous. The greatest historical warrior ever, would probably be lucky to get out of a four on one fight against peasant levies alive.

Really it depends on whether Egyll is actually offering any men to Walder's cause, if he's not then nothing is lost anyway and the Twins being taken would be irrelevant to a Vale victory , if he is then he would probably help him out of the situation. Ignoring Walders call to arms and "Just waiting it out" is treason and if you don't offer men and Breadon wins then you've lost your head, (Honestly Breadon is the best choice for ruler right now since most of the other candidates are unknown so Frey should side with him anyway)
I don't get where all of these talks of the Tullys and Freys being at odd come from anyway, I've said at length in the past why Walder was justified in the Red Wedding and hating the Tullys but non of that hold any truth in this RP and I'd imagine Walder (Tully) would be quite friendly with Lord Frey especially considering him and his son are named after Walder Frey (Who since the great Lord Walder doesn't exist in this RP I'm going to pretend was the man who built the Twins) Walder only names his family members after those he considers personal heroes and famous Riverlands (Except Adele who just happens to be really awkward)

Oh, uh. I've never been serious about Egyll actually ignoring a Call to Arms; that was all good ol' Frey pranking. All I've ever eluded to is that Egyll will do what s best for Egyll, and with the North,Stormlands, and Riverlands - his liege lord - pitted against only The Vale and Crownlands, he'll be all for donating his armies to Walder. I was only skeptical about it if the Lannisters joined the Loyalists, since the Riverlands would be caught between the Vale and the Westerlands, and back then we had no Northern support.

 

[WanderingJester]

Its actually not hard to make a group like that. Its just hard to find enough skilled archers. Though probably the most dangerous for front line great fighters is an archer who does not mind going into the battle to shoot from high range with the skill to do so in battle to snipe leaders. An expert

Right, but it would still be hard to get that kind of skill plus talent. Disregarding the hypothetical scenario at the moment, there's only one person I know that has even the potential to make a shot like that in the RP and I'm not sure if he's even in Westeros currently. To gather 100 even 50 people and get them into an organized group would take a lot of time and effort, something very difficult even before the training of individuals to get that much skill (honestly, if I had that much skill with a bow, I'll rather work as a sellsword commander commanding my own unit of less talented archers and get paid more rather than work with other people of my caliber, take orders from someone and possibly get paid less out of the entire group you know?)

Wait, am I supposed to do that?
I mean, I'll end up writing a thesis what with the hundreds of Frey's in existence.


Anyway, I fail to see what your trying to put across to me here. This is Riverlands vs Westerlands, not Westerlands vs The Crossing. Do you realize how log it would take to completely dismantle to huge ass castles using basic siege equipment like catapults and trebuchets? You'd starve them out before leveling a quarter of the Twins.


And again, I didn't mention the Northern armies, I mentioned the terrain just North of the Twins, if Tiber wants to go directly to the twins pat the Crossroad Inn roadway he HAS to take 10,000 men though several miles of marshland, unless he travels far enough North to re-enter the Kingsroad, but that wastes a lot of time and would earn a response from the North most likely.


This fairy tale talk of Martyn and Roland catting swathed through men is also a little ridiculous, they aren't superhumans. They don't have limitless endurance, and a lucky hit is all it takes for any Lionsguard to bite the dust and weaken their defense. Even the most skilled fighters can die to the most unskilled just through bad luck, and why would Martyn and roland doing well in battle affect Frey morale? Nobody would care, since every able bodied person would be fighting for their life, not watching a spectacle of their friends die to two "superhuman" individuals.


This is Tiber vs the Riverlands, I say again. Not Tiber vs the Freys. It doesn't end at Riverrun, every other vassal would rally against his force, moreso that for all the rivalry between the Brackens and Blackwood they aren't disloyal; Tiber can't just click his figers, and have half of Walder's vassals in his pocket.


I think you're vastly underestimating how powerful the Riverlands actually are if they have the home field advantage. Tywin was raiding the villages in the books and TV series, but there was no mention of him winning some large battle. Which Tiber would be forced into if he tried to Zerg Riverrun or the Twins.

You're extremely overestimating the strength of walls at the Twins. This is House Frey, not House Arryn. It would take years for a force to level enough fortifications to reach the Eyrie. With Tiber's army and lack of giant ass mountains, they can probably level the Twins within a month of shelling, maybe two. If I can demolish a section of a citadel within an hour in Medieval 2: Total War with four trebuchets, Tiber's forces leveling the Twins with his army in two months is completely acceptable.


Two things about your arguments with terrain. One: The terrain as bad as you make it. If the Greyjoys can take Moat Cailin with enough of their men, the Lannisters using the Kingsroad and Riverroad would have no problem arriving at the other side of the Twins ready to go with inconsequential losses along the way. Second: why on earth would the 10000 men march north, go around the river there, and come back down? By the way they're headed, they would've already split their forces south and crossed there, where there's an established road that's very safe to travel, namely the Riverroad. From there it's crossing to the Kingsroad, also very safe, head back up north and then perhaps some off roading west to the Twins.


It's not like Martyn or Roland will be fighting none stop for 6 hours on the field. They'll be on and off, taking breaks when needed and retreating back to secured lines behind the front and come back on if the battle's long enough to warrant that. People care about dying, a lot. Seeing someone in front of them just take down three guys at once (or what appears to be at once) is more than enough to drive fear into hearts of troops. Morale is very very important when we're not using robot armies on the field, and considering that all humans react to fear differently, and most negatively. There's a big difference between me standing with five guys next to me facing off what is the best fighter I've ever seen in my life with his five very impressive looking guards around versus me standing with 20 guys next to me facing off one guy who's pretty good at fighting in front of me. People will give a shit, and probably take a big shit in their trousers.


You're right in that Tiber can't click his fingers and magically take out half the Riverlands, but even @Hypnos admitted that the Riverlands is the most fragmented kingdom in Westeros. The Freys don't have the commanding respect like the Starks do in the North, nor are they lord of the Riverlands, so they can't just order people to come and help them. Going with the scenario if even a quarter of the lords either sit out the conflict or defect, and Riverrun's fallen, you really think any of the others would come to the Frey's aid outside of their own vassals?


Not going to address who might happen if Tiber goes for Riverrun or what not, as that would be beside the point. Just trying to focus on the scenario at hand which we've been discussion at the moment.

@Archon
We didn't once say that Martyn or Roland are superhuman and we aren't saying they can't die. I'm just stating the facts that Martyn and Roland would be much more difficult to kill than pretty much everybody else in the battle other than the actual leaders like Tiber and Lord Frey. I stated they could kill roughly 50 men each, I also stated that this is if the battle lasts long enough for them to do so and they don't get injured or have to retreat. You seem to be getting upset over absolutely nothing when I've stated several times that its definitely possible for either of them to get unlucky and be killed. Also the whole thing of Martyn and Roland not being able to cause morale damage is completely incorrect. It has been proven in history many times that men that are considered great warriors or leaders do cause morale damage to their enemies. If you're fighting a battle and see some man cut down to or three men in front of you down like they're nothing then there is a good chance you don't want to fight him. That fear is what causes men to route during a battle. If what you say is true then every single battle in history has been fought until one side was completely killed off.

Yup.

That's because your treating these two top tier fighters like superhumans, as I said - they don't have unlimited endurance, it's insane how fatiguing sword-fighting really is, and 50 men even after a long amount of time seems ridiculous. You also missed my point on the morale, the Freys are not going to care here because as the saying goes "Never surround an enemy, or they'll fight with nothing to lose." In a pitched battle, I'm sure they'd route. But this is for all terms of the word, a Last stand. The Frey army has nowhere to run, and is completely surrounded on both forts. So they aren't going to be deterred by two enemy soldiers doing marginally well.
Hell, I know GRRM said it, but Jaime taking down 20 men before being captured is so incredibly ridiculous. The greatest historical warrior ever, would probably be lucky to get out of a four on one fight against peasant levies alive.


Oh, uh. I've never been serious about Egyll actually ignoring a Call to Arms; that was all good ol' Frey pranking. All I've ever eluded to is that Egyll will do what s best for Egyll, and with the North,Stormlands, and Riverlands - his liege lord - pitted against only The Vale and Crownlands, he'll be all for donating his armies to Walder. I was only skeptical about it if the Lannisters joined the Loyalists, since the Riverlands would be caught between the Vale and the Westerlands, and back then we had no Northern support.

No, I disagree about the 4:1 peasant thing. There's a mental aspect to it when it comes to fighting, and the peasant would hesitate long enough at the prospect of killing someone to let the warrior cut all of them down.

 

[Hypnos]

That's because your treating these two top tier fighters like superhumans, as I said - they don't have unlimited endurance, it's insane how fatiguing sword-fighting really is, and 50 men even after a long amount of time seems ridiculous. You also missed my point on the morale, the Freys are not going to care here because as the saying goes "Never surround an enemy, or they'll fight with nothing to lose." In a pitched battle, I'm sure they'd route. But this is for all terms of the word, a Last stand. The Frey army has nowhere to run, and is completely surrounded on both forts. So they aren't going to be deterred by two enemy soldiers doing marginally well.
Hell, I know GRRM said it, but Jaime taking down 20 men before being captured is so incredibly ridiculous. The greatest historical warrior ever, would probably be lucky to get out of a four on one fight against peasant levies alive.


Oh, uh. I've never been serious about Egyll actually ignoring a Call to Arms; that was all good ol' Frey pranking. All I've ever eluded to is that Egyll will do what s best for Egyll, and with the North,Stormlands, and Riverlands - his liege lord - pitted against only The Vale and Crownlands, he'll be all for donating his armies to Walder. I was only skeptical about it if the Lannisters joined the Loyalists, since the Riverlands would be caught between the Vale and the Westerlands, and back then we had no Northern support.

Is Egyll going to be at the Lannister wedding? We're going to need to talk.

 

[Leusis]

Miyamoto Musashi was said to have killed 10 men by himself in a fight. He also wasn't wearing armor, had no shield (not saying samurai used shields but still). Only his katana and wakazahi. Trust me there were warriors in history that would put plenty of warrior in ASOIAF to shame.

 

[Leusis]

@Archon


If you were under the impression that Roland and Martyn would be on the field fighting for the entire battle just cutting men down you're wrong. Not even grunts fought endlessly during war. Its been written many times that the front lines of both forces would literally step back sometimes for a couple of minutes and the nchrage each other again. Roland and Martyn do not have endless stamina and neither me or Jester stated that once. You just seem to be getting really hitted over nothing because as Jester said they would likely fight for a while and then retreat behind the lines and rest and rejoin the battle later. I'm sure killing 50 men over the course of a 4-6 hour battle is perfectly reasonable as thats only one man ever 5 or so minutes.

 

[Archon]

Right, but it would still be hard to get that kind of skill plus talent. Disregarding the hypothetical scenario at the moment, there's only one person I know that has even the potential to make a shot like that in the RP and I'm not sure if he's even in Westeros currently. To gather 100 even 50 people and get them into an organized group would take a lot of time and effort, something very difficult even before the training of individuals to get that much skill (honestly, if I had that much skill with a bow, I'll rather work as a sellsword commander commanding my own unit of less talented archers and get paid more rather than work with other people of my caliber, take orders from someone and possibly get paid less out of the entire group you know?)
You're extremely overestimating the strength of walls at the Twins. This is House Frey, not House Arryn. It would take years for a force to level enough fortifications to reach the Eyrie. With Tiber's army and lack of giant ass mountains, they can probably level the Twins within a month of shelling, maybe two. If I can demolish a section of a citadel within an hour in Medieval 2: Total War with four trebuchets, Tiber's forces leveling the Twins with his army in two months is completely acceptable.


Two things about your arguments with terrain. One: The terrain as bad as you make it. If the Greyjoys can take Moat Cailin with enough of their men, the Lannisters using the Kingsroad and Riverroad would have no problem arriving at the other side of the Twins ready to go with inconsequential losses along the way. Second: why on earth would the 10000 men march north, go around the river there, and come back down? By the way they're headed, they would've already split their forces south and crossed there, where there's an established road that's very safe to travel, namely the Riverroad. From there it's crossing to the Kingsroad, also very safe, head back up north and then perhaps some off roading west to the Twins.


It's not like Martyn or Roland will be fighting none stop for 6 hours on the field. They'll be on and off, taking breaks when needed and retreating back to secured lines behind the front and come back on if the battle's long enough to warrant that. People care about dying, a lot. Seeing someone in front of them just take down three guys at once (or what appears to be at once) is more than enough to drive fear into hearts of troops. Morale is very very important when we're not using robot armies on the field, and considering that all humans react to fear differently, and most negatively. There's a big difference between me standing with five guys next to me facing off what is the best fighter I've ever seen in my life with his five very impressive looking guards around versus me standing with 20 guys next to me facing off one guy who's pretty good at fighting in front of me. People will give a shit, and probably take a big shit in their trousers.


You're right in that Tiber can't click his fingers and magically take out half the Riverlands, but even @Hypnos admitted that the Riverlands is the most fragmented kingdom in Westeros. The Freys don't have the commanding respect like the Starks do in the North, nor are they lord of the Riverlands, so they can't just order people to come and help them. Going with the scenario if even a quarter of the lords either sit out the conflict or defect, and Riverrun's fallen, you really think any of the others would come to the Frey's aid outside of their own vassals?


Not going to address who might happen if Tiber goes for Riverrun or what not, as that would be beside the point. Just trying to focus on the scenario at hand which we've been discussion at the moment.


Yup.


No, I disagree about the 4:1 peasant thing. There's a mental aspect to it when it comes to fighting, and the peasant would hesitate long enough at the prospect of killing someone to let the warrior cut all of them down.

I'm just going to call it a loss on my part, and say you win - which I already said earlier - this debate is doing nothing but hurt my head, because hypothetically, it isn't going to happen; and most of what you said has no basis. The Twins are still two huge ass fortresses, and trebuchets can't level buildings, or hit with great accuracy - not to mention must be resupplied over and over - I'd say two months is completely wrong.


Why on earth any Riverlords would sit the war out I do not know, They are all loyal and united would probably give Tiber a run for his money, if not outright win. Everyone overestimates the Westerlands military strength, they are the second most powerful without a doubt, but in an invasion they can't commit 100% of their force, whereas Walder and the Riverlands likely can. Homefield advantage and all.


And your 4:1 peasant disagreement is basically down to every single individual. Unless all four of those levies timid cowards, they'll likely just rush the lone lord/knight or whatever. They still have weapons, shields, and probably cheap armor. Fighting four men in a sword fight is probably impossible in the real world. Chances are the peasants would take the lord/knight off his feet and just bludgeon him to death.

 

[Archon]

Miyamoto Musashi was said to have killed 10 men by himself in a fight. He also wasn't wearing armor, had no shield (not saying samurai used shields but still). Only his katana and wakazahi. Trust me there were warriors in history that would put plenty of warrior in ASOIAF to shame.

Do you know how much I don't believe that on a scale of 1 to 10? 100,


Keep in mind, most history as we know it is most likely in-accurate, and many Great historical figures are probably victims of their own legend. Unless that man was fighting unarmed opponents, or had superspeed I fail to see how that's physically possible.

 

[Archon]

@Archon
If you were under the impression that Roland and Martyn would be on the field fighting for the entire battle just cutting men down you're wrong. Not even grunts fought endlessly during war. Its been written many times that the front lines of both forces would literally step back sometimes for a couple of minutes and the nchrage each other again. Roland and Martyn do not have endless stamina and neither me or Jester stated that once. You just seem to be getting really hitted over nothing because as Jester said they would likely fight for a while and then retreat behind the lines and rest and rejoin the battle later. I'm sure killing 50 men over the course of a 4-6 hour battle is perfectly reasonable as thats only one man ever 5 or so minutes.

Yes, that is perfectly reasonable. I'm not disputing that, it was never stated they would be leaving the battle for regular breaks - so I didn't take it as such. I'm not exactly heated over this, but is starting to irritate me because I've already said that Tiber would win - yet the debate continues, I mean, it seems like I'm trying to argue for the sake of not making the Twins look like a joke by getting rolled over.

 

[Archon]

Is Egyll going to be at the Lannister wedding? We're going to need to talk.

Is he invited to the Lannster wedding? If not, we could just talk by letter. If that's what you meant of course?

 

[Akio]

Right, but it would still be hard to get that kind of skill plus talent. Disregarding the hypothetical scenario at the moment, there's only one person I know that has even the potential to make a shot like that in the RP and I'm not sure if he's even in Westeros currently. To gather 100 even 50 people and get them into an organized group would take a lot of time and effort, something very difficult even before the training of individuals to get that much skill (honestly, if I had that much skill with a bow, I'll rather work as a sellsword commander commanding my own unit of less talented archers and get paid more rather than work with other people of my caliber, take orders from someone and possibly get paid less out of the entire group you know?)
No, I disagree about the 4:1 peasant thing. There's a mental aspect to it when it comes to fighting, and the peasant would hesitate long enough at the prospect of killing someone to let the warrior cut all of them down.

Fair enough, who is that archer by the way?


And i think people underestimate what a skilled warrior can do. I've watched people fight with blunted weapons and if someone has room to move even if their fighting multiple people for them to take down 20 warriors is not impossible. Maybe if the person they were facing were utterly fearless then maybe not but if you seem the man cut down next to you in a blinding fast blow you immediately hesitate because you think you might be next.

 

[Leusis]

Fighting superior numbers is all about positioning. It has nothing to do with super speed or his enemies not being armed. The man is literally known as the greatest samurai to have ever lived. To be known as the greatest samurai is insane considering samurai were essentially the spartans of Japan and dedicated their entire lives to the art of war. This is a man who went undefeated in 64 duels in his lifetime, even defeating a man who was considered to be a demon wwith a fucking oar carved to the shape of a sword.

 

[Archon]

I'm unworthy of glorious nippon steel, so I stay far from Japanese Samurai topics.


For all intents and purposes those dudes were superhuman physically.


They'd still get chewed up by Western European Knights in fullplate though.


But are you telling me that not even for a second you don't think that's not even slightly exaggerated? We're talking about twenty people here. Armed, and maybe armored; with only one person as their goal. Positioning and footwork can't feasibly outsmart twenty people.

 

[WanderingJester]

I'm just going to call it a loss on my part, and say you win - which I already said earlier - this debate is doing nothing but hurt my head, because hypothetically, it isn't going to happen; and most of what you said has no basis. The Twins are still two huge ass fortresses, and trebuchets can't level buildings, or hit with great accuracy - not to mention must be resupplied over and over - I'd say two months is completely wrong.
Why on earth any Riverlords would sit the war out I do not know, They are all loyal and united would probably give Tiber a run for his money, if not outright win. Everyone overestimates the Westerlands military strength, they are the second most powerful without a doubt, but in an invasion they can't commit 100% of their force, whereas Walder and the Riverlands likely can. Homefield advantage and all.


And your 4:1 peasant disagreement is basically down to every single individual. Unless all four of those levies timid cowards, they'll likely just rush the lone lord/knight or whatever. They still have weapons, shields, and probably cheap armor. Fighting four men in a sword fight is probably impossible in the real world. Chances are the peasants would take the lord/knight off his feet and just bludgeon him to death.

Just saying my points have no basis doesn't make it true. As you've read others have agreed with me and if anything, pointing out how my assumptions have no basis just weakens your point even more. I've never denied that the Twins are two large fortresses, but if you think trebuchets can't level buildings then you're wrong, but I won't try and make you believe that. They're inaccurate as far as any other large siege machines go, but then again that's the point of firing them in unified volleys. We'll just have to agree to disagree I suppose.


Idk, but the thing about the Riverlords are how they're never really united, no? Unless someone's full intention was to kill every last man in the Riverlands, I don't see them all uniting to the point where they'll throw everything on the line for House Tully even, especially if Tiber promises to not touch many of the seats so long as they ignore the call to war and even offer to give them land from their hated rivals. It's not out of the question for some to just chill at their seat while the war happens.


It may be impossible if they all strike at the same time, but any good fighter knows to take on one guy very quickly, kill them, and move on to the other. Great fighters can do this within seconds of their reaction time. I agree though that four very determined individuals can kill a fighter much better trained and armed than them, but as you've said it really depends on the individuals involve. I will say to have every single person in any army (or even a good majority) with that much determination and will is not only unrealistic, but impossible.

Yes, that is perfectly reasonable. I'm not disputing that, it was never stated they would be leaving the battle for regular breaks - so I didn't take it as such. I'm not exactly heated over this, but is starting to irritate me because I've already said that Tiber would win - yet the debate continues, I mean, it seems like I'm trying to argue for the sake of not making the Twins look like a joke by getting rolled over.

No one said the Twins is a joke to be run over. It's still a very formidable fortress(es) for most enemies. We're just talking about the strength of one of the major houses being marshaled against it, and against a force that strong any non-major house would have trouble defending really (with the possible exception of the Vale Houses).

Is he invited to the Lannster wedding? If not, we could just talk by letter. If that's what you meant of course?

I'm... not sure honestly. I've always joked that they weren't invited to the wedding but never gave it serious thought. Perhaps they can go if they accompany the Tullys if the Tullys choose to have them in the entourage?

Fair enough, who is that archer by the way?
And i think people underestimate what a skilled warrior can do. I've watched people fight with blunted weapons and if someone has room to move even if their fighting multiple people for them to take down 20 warriors is not impossible. Maybe if the person they were facing were utterly fearless then maybe not but if you seem the man cut down next to you in a blinding fast blow you immediately hesitate because you think you might be next.

Some Yi Ti guy use by @Leusis, his name escapes me at the moment. He has a green hat and is the CS page. And yes about the skill warrior part.

 

[Leusis]

Roland or Martyn, I agree would likely die if 4 men decided to fearlessly charge them all at once and just tackle them to the ground. The problem with that is, just charging like that is extremely reckless and goes against the basic instinct of survival. Its not common for a man to be so fearless and thats why men are capable of fighting several oppoenents, because its a sword fight, not a brawl on the ground with men who don't care if they die. The men try to use their weapons to achieve victory so that they don't die or get injured. Because if all fighting with just a fearless charge why would weapons and armor be a thing in the first place. After all, these things were created to give people a greater chance of survival in a fight, to have some kind of advantage to keep themselves alive.

 

[Akio]

For drafted peasents its even worse, after all they aren't facing down the man in front of them but their fighting the living legend, someone stories and legends they might have sung about when drinking would be in front of them trying to kill them. They would defeat themselves in their own minds even before they entered battle. "How can i cut down someone like that?" For every man who dies it gets worse. You hesitate and feel fear. And not to mention these expert fighters usually have a honor guard of elites. An elite squadron cutting down many times their numbers of peasents wouldn't even be difficult. The Spartans fought numbers thousands of times there and inflicted 100000 casualties with good ground. 300 spartens and about 700 Athens and 1000 thesoliens. A couple hundred Samurai put down dozens of peasents rebellions killing thousands without much effort. You underestimate what an experienced warrior can do