Fandom A Song of Ice and Fire RP (Game of Thrones)

[Akio]

A veteran army could probably take the twins without massive difficulty if they had numbers and were taking it by storm even from only one side. The only problem anyone important would just walk out the other side and it would take time especially since if your taking one twin they could have the other twin shoot at you

 

[Leusis]

The bridge between the two castles is actually pretty damn long so I doubt they'd be able to shoot from one to another.

 

[Akio]

The bridge between the two castles is actually pretty damn long so I doubt they'd be able to shoot from one to another.

I dont know, heights pretty nice and they could probably hold the bridge from one twin for quite awhile by just blocking the bridge and blind firing arrows at it

 

[WanderingJester]

I honestly wonder how strong that bridge's infrastructure is. I mean there's a chance that during a battle it could get hit with a few shots from the siege weapons and if it goes out like that then it'll just be two castles being besieged at the same time on opposite side of the river. Also, how much cover would be on the bridge? If there isn't there's also the chance that people running back and forth on it could get hit by an arrow or something from the attackers just taking pot shots on the bridge or something.

 

[Leusis]

fill a ship with wildfire, send it down river, blow it up when its close enough to the bridge. GG Lannisters too OP.

 

[Hypnos]

I honestly wonder how strong that bridge's infrastructure is. I mean there's a chance that during a battle it could get hit with a few shots from the siege weapons and if it goes out like that then it'll just be two castles being besieged at the same time on opposite side of the river. Also, how much cover would be on the bridge? If there isn't there's also the chance that people running back and forth on it could get hit by an arrow or something from the attackers just taking pot shots on the bridge or something.

I'd say that it would be a lot stronger than that, this bridge has held out for six hundred years and has been reinforced by every generation of Frey, it is their entire lively hood and they're not letting it go down. Besides hitting it would be hard enough what with the angle of it.

 

[WanderingJester]

I'd say that it would be a lot stronger than that, this bridge has held out for six hundred years and has been reinforced by every generation of Frey, it is their entire lively hood and they're not letting it go down. Besides hitting it would be hard enough what with the angle of it.

I'm just looking at it from a visual type of deal really.


Here's the version from the TV series

And here's the one from books (?)

Neither looks difficult to hit from the side with a few volleys from the catapults, even if the book version look stronger. Yes the castle would be the main target because it's bigger and easier to hit, but I mean none of the bridges I picture in my mind have the strength of a fortress to withstand more than a few lucky shots from siege weapons missing. I mean, realistically you can only reinforce a bridge so much before it just becomes a dam or something, so I mean does it physically have the structural integrity of some of the larger dams, like the Hoover?

 

[Akio]

I agree with Hypnos on that, though its not likely to have cover for those on the bridge itself

 

[Archon]

I think everyone's putting words in my mouth here. I never claimed that the Frey's would win this in any scenario, in fact I quite happily ceded much earlier that the Lannister force would win handily.


What I've been debating however, is the fact the Twins are more defensible than given credit for. You see, Robb could have took them by force for whatever reason, but as I've pointed out, an assault is an assault, and his loss ratio would be so incredible by the time he'd won the battle, the war with Tywin would be pretty much sealed. And let's face it, claiming Tiber would only lose 20,000 against the Riverlands is being very generous, trying to march a whole army through the Neck to the Twins would be devastating enough to any one unfamiliar with the terrain.


I've also stated multiple timed that the Twins are not mighty due to incredible walls, or architecture but merely because the positioning is great. Siege weapons hardly seal a battle, Riverrun is probably slightly more defensible than the Twins, but catapults can't win a war alone. A frontal assault is just that, thousands of men throwing themselves at hails of arrows until they finally breach the gate or reach the walls, veterans or no, they'd drop like flies.


And if Martyn and Roland where at the forefront of a fort assault the chances of them getting riddled with bolts are horrendously high, especially if the defenders know who they are. I mean, fighting on the frontlines is just plain stupidity. Since no amount of skill can stop a mace cleaving your skull in from behind, or a crossbow bolt piercing an eye.


And if we do go with my 6,000-7,000 number I'm quite sure that a sally of men like that would pretty much annihilate most of Tiber's army, hell, he probably has less than 10,000 on the northern front due to the terrain nightmare of the marshes.


Basically, conclusion: Tiber wins 8/10 times. Tiber loses a ridiculous number of men. Martyn and Roland probably die if they try and play hero.


The bridge is also quite enormous, I imagine it's incredibly sturdy provided it took generations to build and it's too long to take potshots at. War doesn't work like that anyway.

 

[Hypnos]

I'm just looking at it from a visual type of deal really.
Here's the version from the TV series

And here's the one from books (?)

Neither looks difficult to hit from the side with a few volleys from the catapults, even if the book version look stronger. Yes the castle would be the main target because it's bigger and easier to hit, but I mean none of the bridges I picture in my mind have the strength of a fortress to withstand more than a few lucky shots from siege weapons missing. I mean, realistically you can only reinforce a bridge so much before it just becomes a dam or something, so I mean does it physically have the structural integrity of some of the larger dams, like the Hoover?

The Twins consist of two identical stone castles standing on a margin of the Green Fork of the Trident. They have high curtain walls, deep moats and a barbican and portcullis in each. A stone bridge arches between them, with the bridge footings rising from within the inner keeps. This bridge is wide enough for two wagons to cross abreast, and is guarded by a tower in the middle known as the Water Tower.

I imagine the Twins castle differently to those two pictures and more as described in the books. Each Twin is not a tower but rather a massive fucking castle, big enough to rival other defensible castles, each with its own walls and defenses meaning they are a lot wider than a mere tower making it much harder for you to get a catapult that can even see the bridge let alone hit it and knock the thing down.

 

[Leusis]

And if Martyn and Roland where at the forefront of a fort assault the chances of them getting riddled with bolts are horrendously high, especially if the defenders know who they are. I mean, fighting on the frontlines is just plain stupidity. Since no amount of skill can stop a mac cleaving your skull in from behind, or a crossbow bolt piercing an eye.

We weren't speaking of Martyn and Roland taking part in a frontal assault of the castle. We were speaking of a hypothetical of if the Freys sallied out to fight the Lannisters. And in a pitch battle when the front lines clash its impossible to be struck by an arrow unless one side decides "lets loose some arrows to kill just as many of our men as theirs". And somebody attacking them from behind is also unlikely as they both have highly skilled knights that follow them into battle. Essentially you have to hope that some peasant with a particularly crappy spear can hit Roland or Martyn but also punch through their armor and do enough damage to kill them, all of which is unlikely.

 

[Akio]

We weren't speaking of Martyn and Roland taking part in a frontal assault of the castle. We were speaking of a hypothetical of if the Freys sallied out to fight the Lannisters. And in a pitch battle when the front lines clash its impossible to be struck by an arrow unless one side decides "lets loose some arrows to kill just as many of our men as theirs". And somebody attacking them from behind is also unlikely as they both have highly skilled knights that follow them into battle. Essentially you have to hope that some peasant with a particularly crappy spear can hit Roland or Martyn but also punch through their armor and do enough damage to kill them, all of which is unlikely.

Unless a skilled archer is specifically aiming at someone like that to unless their really lucky the chance of landing a killing blow. And if nots a killing blow they will ethier keep fighting or just be removed from the field

 

[Hypnos]

@Archon have you fleshed out the Frey family yet?

 

[Leusis]

Fighting in the front lines as a leader/hero of an army wasn't as dangerous as people think. Unless that person is randomly struck by some ridiculously random arrow and dies or his personal guard is completely overwhelmed he'll likely be completely fine. Don't forget they likely have the best arms and armor available during the time period and are possibly (depends on the person) one of the best fighters in that particular army.

 

[WanderingJester]

I imagine the Twins castle differently to those two pictures and more as described in the books. Each Twin is not a tower but rather a massive fucking castle, big enough to rival other defensible castles, each with its own walls and defenses meaning they are a lot wider than a mere tower making it much harder for you to get a catapult that can even see the bridge let alone hit it and knock the thing down.

Fair enough. I suppose any attackers would just have to focus on the walls of the two individual castles rather than the bridge itself then. Just wondered out of curiosity the infrastructure of the main feature of this castle that gives it the advantage.

I think everyone's putting words in my mouth here. I never claimed that the Frey's would win this in any scenario, in fact I quite happily ceded much earlier that the Lannister force would win handily.
What I've been debating however, is the fact the Twins are more defensible than given credit for. You see, Robb could have took them by force for whatever reason, but as I've pointed out, an assault is an assault, and his loss ratio would be so incredible by the time he'd won the battle, the war with Tywin would be pretty much sealed. And let's face it, claiming Tiber would only lose 20,000 against the Riverlands is being very generous, trying to march a whole army through the Neck to the Twins would be devastating enough to any one unfamiliar with the terrain.


I've also stated multiple timed that the Twins are not mighty due to incredible walls, or architecture but merely because the positioning is great. Siege weapons hardly seal a battle, Riverrun is probably slightly more defensible than the Twins, but catapults can't win a war alone. A frontal assault is just that, thousands of men throwing themselves at hails of arrows until they finally breach the gate or reach the walls, veterans or no, they'd drop like flies.


And if Martyn and Roland where at the forefront of a fort assault the chances of them getting riddled with bolts are horrendously high, especially if the defenders know who they are. I mean, fighting on the frontlines is just plain stupidity. Since no amount of skill can stop a mace cleaving your skull in from behind, or a crossbow bolt piercing an eye.


And if we do go with my 6,000-7,000 number I'm quite sure that a sally of men like that would pretty much annihilate most of Tiber's army, hell, he probably has less than 10,000 on the northern front due to the terrain nightmare of the marshes.


Basically, conclusion: Tiber wins 8/10 times. Tiber loses a ridiculous number of men. Martyn and Roland probably die if they try and play hero.


The bridge is also quite enormous, I imagine it's incredibly sturdy provided it took generations to build and it's too long to take potshots at. War doesn't work like that anyway.

A lot of what you just said is really subjective, and depends on how the Riverlords react to the attack. Would they fragment at the sight of the Westermen or unite in the face of a common enemy? How would House Bracken or Blackwood react if Tiber offers them something they want in exchange for defecting, especially the domain of their long rivals? Too much variable to count there so I won't try and tackle. I will say that I'll just agree to disagree about the 20000 men loss. I feel that it would be acceptable, even a little generous to Riverrun for that, but you know, differing opinions.


Hit something enough times and it'll come down. The Eyrie's no different, Casterly Rock's no different. If the objective was the conquest of the Twins, then you would be absolutely correct, there would need to be an assault at some stage of the siege to take the castles on either side of the river. However, if the point was just to level the fortifications into the ground and kill everyone inside, then just having catapults and trebuchets launch volleys after volleys would be more than enough to take out the Twins (which is something I can see Tiber do. He'll just build his own bridge after clearing out the rubble and corpses). There wouldn't be an assault because no one would try and rush the walls of the Twins while boulders are being launched repeatedly at it, non stop once the siege starts.


You're still focused on the Northern Front, which doesn't exists in this scenario. Again, I'm just going by a Frey/Riverlands vs Lannister/Westerlands war here. The North, for whatever reason, is not involved with this conflict nor are they intended to be involved in the future. So any casualties about marching through marsh or fighting the Northern armies would be out. The marsh doesn't extend past the Twins from the North, and it's perfectly traversable ground south of it, which is where the extra 10000 men will march through as they move around. The Neck doesn't factor in at all here.


As before, there would be no assault, hence Martyn and Roland wouldn't be hit by arrows since they'll be out of range even for the ballistas. If you want to say that the Freys would leave certain amount of men behind to fire from their walls, then it'll just a luck shot because hitting a stationary target's hard enough by a person with a bow or crossbow from ground level to ground level, now we're talking about hitting a target that's bobbing and weaving in the middle of a clusterfuck melee while standing on a platform firing at an angle down. Unless they don't mind sending a volley into the fray which would probably kill just as many Freys as Lannisters, that option would be more of a King Richard I scenario (one arrow to the neck by luck takes down a great warrior). Then again, that's a sally forth scenario.

We weren't speaking of Martyn and Roland taking part in a frontal assault of the castle. We were speaking of a hypothetical of if the Freys sallied out to fight the Lannisters. And in a pitch battle when the front lines clash its impossible to be struck by an arrow unless one side decides "lets loose some arrows to kill just as many of our men as theirs". And somebody attacking them from behind is also unlikely as they both have highly skilled knights that follow them into battle. Essentially you have to hope that some peasant with a particularly crappy spear can hit Roland or Martyn but also punch through their armor and do enough damage to kill them, all of which is unlikely.

Boom.

Unless a skilled archer is specifically aiming at someone like that to unless their really lucky the chance of landing a killing blow. And if nots a killing blow they will ethier keep fighting or just be removed from the field

See my arrow/bolt post in reply to Archon.

 

[Akio]

Fighting in the front lines as a leader/hero of an army wasn't as dangerous as people think. Unless that person is randomly struck by some ridiculously random arrow and dies or his personal guard is completely overwhelmed he'll likely be completely fine. Don't forget they likely have the best arms and armor available during the time period and are possibly (depends on the person) one of the best fighters in that particular army.

Now there were some groups who specifically hunted down Warleaders in that fashion. Brandon Rivers Raven Teeth were like 100 expert archers who targed officers in certain armies and ended the first blackfyre rebellion by putting several arrows in him

 

[Akio]

Fair enough. I suppose any attackers would just have to focus on the walls of the two individual castles rather than the bridge itself then. Just wondered out of curiosity the infrastructure of the main feature of this castle that gives it the advantage.
A lot of what you just said is really subjective, and depends on how the Riverlords react to the attack. Would they fragment at the sight of the Westermen or unite in the face of a common enemy? How would House Bracken or Blackwood react if Tiber offers them something they want in exchange for defecting, especially the domain of their long rivals? Too much variable to count there so I won't try and tackle. I will say that I'll just agree to disagree about the 20000 men loss. I feel that it would be acceptable, even a little generous to Riverrun for that, but you know, differing opinions.


Hit something enough times and it'll come down. The Eyrie's no different, Casterly Rock's no different. If the objective was the conquest of the Twins, then you would be absolutely correct, there would need to be an assault at some stage of the siege to take the castles on either side of the river. However, if the point was just to level the fortifications into the ground and kill everyone inside, then just having catapults and trebuchets launch volleys after volleys would be more than enough to take out the Twins (which is something I can see Tiber do. He'll just build his own bridge after clearing out the rubble and corpses). There wouldn't be an assault because no one would try and rush the walls of the Twins while boulders are being launched repeatedly at it, non stop once the siege starts.


You're still focused on the Northern Front, which doesn't exists in this scenario. Again, I'm just going by a Frey/Riverlands vs Lannister/Westerlands war here. The North, for whatever reason, is not involved with this conflict nor are they intended to be involved in the future. So any casualties about marching through marsh or fighting the Northern armies would be out. The marsh doesn't extend past the Twins from the North, and it's perfectly traversable ground south of it, which is where the extra 10000 men will march through as they move around. The Neck doesn't factor in at all here.


As before, there would be no assault, hence Martyn and Roland wouldn't be hit by arrows since they'll be out of range even for the ballistas. If you want to say that the Freys would leave certain amount of men behind to fire from their walls, then it'll just a luck shot because hitting a stationary target's hard enough by a person with a bow or crossbow from ground level to ground level, now we're talking about hitting a target that's bobbing and weaving in the middle of a clusterfuck melee while standing on a platform firing at an angle down. Unless they don't mind sending a volley into the fray which would probably kill just as many Freys as Lannisters, that option would be more of a King Richard I scenario (one arrow to the neck by luck takes down a great warrior). Then again, that's a sally forth scenario.


Boom.


See my arrow/bolt post in reply to Archon.

Where is that post?

 

[SirDerpingtonIV]

Yeah, some random peasant is just struggling to defend himself against the greater numbers when hes sees a man whos 6'6 and likely weighs as much as a pile of bricks hacking through men with brute strength hes likely never seen as well as a considerable amount of skill. And only a few feet away from that guy covering his back is a man with swordsmanship and footwork a lot of men have likely never seen cutting down men-at-arms like children. That does sound like quite the scary sight actually.

Until my repeating crossbows mow them the fuck down.

 

[WanderingJester]

Now there were some groups who specifically hunted down Warleaders in that fashion. Brandon Rivers Raven Teeth were like 100 expert archers who targed officers in certain armies and ended the first blackfyre rebellion by putting several arrows in him

Yes, but unless the Freys suddenly just hired a group like them, I'll go with the lack of such a specialized force in our hypothetical scenario. I'm not doubting the existence, just that they would be a factor in what we're discussing. If anything they would be hired by the Lannisters with their "hired all the mercs possible" campaign going on here.

Where is that post?

As before, there would be no assault, hence Martyn and Roland wouldn't be hit by arrows since they'll be out of range even for the ballistas. If you want to say that the Freys would leave certain amount of men behind to fire from their walls, then it'll just a luck shot because hitting a stationary target's hard enough by a person with a bow or crossbow from ground level to ground level, now we're talking about hitting a target that's bobbing and weaving in the middle of a clusterfuck melee while standing on a platform firing at an angle down. Unless they don't mind sending a volley into the fray which would probably kill just as many Freys as Lannisters, that option would be more of a King Richard I scenario (one arrow to the neck by luck takes down a great warrior).

here.

Until my repeating crossbows mow them the fuck down.

And considering the fact that I've repeatedly supported Haelga in OOC and the fact that she's honestly the most sensible/likely choice for Tiber to back for the Iron Throne, those crossbows would be mowing down Freys if anything, but I'm just going to stick with the whole Westerlands vs Riverlands thing at the moment.


... Haelga for new Queen of the Iron Islands! Woot!

 

[SirDerpingtonIV]

We weren't speaking of Martyn and Roland taking part in a frontal assault of the castle. We were speaking of a hypothetical of if the Freys sallied out to fight the Lannisters. And in a pitch battle when the front lines clash its impossible to be struck by an arrow unless one side decides "lets loose some arrows to kill just as many of our men as theirs". And somebody attacking them from behind is also unlikely as they both have highly skilled knights that follow them into battle. Essentially you have to hope that some peasant with a particularly crappy spear can hit Roland or Martyn but also punch through their armor and do enough damage to kill them, all of which is unlikely.

Arm your peasants with maces.

 

[Leusis]

I'm not saying there is no danger in leading from the front in a battle. I'm just saying that the people with the best chance of survival in the front lines are more than likely a leader/hero.

 

[Leusis]

@SirDerpingtonIV


Maces are more expensive than spears, won't happen.

 

[SirDerpingtonIV]

True, but who can ever t?rust a Lannister

Yes, but unless the Freys suddenly just hired a group like them, I'll go with the lack of such a specialized force in our hypothetical scenario. I'm not doubting the existence, just that they would be a factor in what we're discussing. If anything they would be hired by the Lannisters with their "hired all the mercs possible" campaign going on here.
here.


And considering the fact that I've repeatedly supported Haelga in OOC and the fact that she's honestly the most sensible/likely choice for Tiber to back for the Iron Throne, those crossbows would be mowing down Freys if anything, but I'm just going to stick with the whole Westerlands vs Riverlands thing at the moment.


... Haelga for new Queen of the Iron Islands! Woot!

 

[Akio]

Yes, but unless the Freys suddenly just hired a group like them, I'll go with the lack of such a specialized force in our hypothetical scenario. I'm not doubting the existence, just that they would be a factor in what we're discussing. If anything they would be hired by the Lannisters with their "hired all the mercs possible" campaign going on here.
here.


And considering the fact that I've repeatedly supported Haelga in OOC and the fact that she's honestly the most sensible/likely choice for Tiber to back for the Iron Throne, those crossbows would be mowing down Freys if anything, but I'm just going to stick with the whole Westerlands vs Riverlands thing at the moment.


... Haelga for new Queen of the Iron Islands! Woot!

Its actually not hard to make a group like that. Its just hard to find enough skilled archers to aim at that range needed. Though probably the most dangerous for front line great fighters is an archer who does not mind going into the battle to shoot from high range with the skill to do so in battle to snipe leaders. An expert

 

[Leusis]

Well they better have a bodkin arrow nocked and be within 20-30 yards of the man they're shooting, because thats what it'll take to punch through platemail and even then the average puncture is only about an inch deep (generally not deadly).