Futuristic UEEF Marines - OOC Thread

[Purr]

With the technology involved and the way I understand protoculture works...I am sure in an attack one could designate a number of missles per target and launch several missles at once to attack their designated targets. For example: Onni could target three invid with four missles, he designates one of the invid to fire two missles at and the other two get one missle each . I would roll one Strike roll for all three targets and they would respond accordingly.

That is my thought. If it is too much I understand.

True, along with cthuluneedsahug once his character is done. Purr , what are your thoughts on this?

Eonivar Psychie Sherwood

Hey there! *yawn* *stretch* O.K.. I've been "awake" for about 10 minutes. =) Let me take a crack at this.

Short answer: I am not in favor of this at all. Sorry! =)

Spoiler: Long answer.

Here's why along with some upbeat music to talk shop to: Lavender by Two Door Cinema Club. =)

1. Yes, the technology is there depending on who's running the game. One fact I think some players (in general) miss is Robotech/Macross came out over 40 years ago (7 July 1984) for the Macross movie that started it all. Technology has changed immensely since then. This very Internet did not exist for the public at that time.

1a. Some GMs take their games based on the tech that was known then. Others take the tech on what we've got now. Yet others, in-between. (This goes for all kinds of sci-fi, not just Robotech). It's a detail I keep in mind because it can improve games or mess them up.

2. If the mechanic were available to fire multiple missile volleys (even if it used up all of one's Actions for a Round), sure it would look awesome! Just badass! (Anyone else remember the Death Blossom from The Last Starfighter?) However, I believe it would eventually trivialize our gameplay. Just for a moment, think in terms of missile capabilities. Sure, we mostly use mini-missiles and SRMs (short range missiles). Those reach out for a few miles, right? If you could shoot multiple targets at once

Small teams of Alphas and Betas would mop the floor with the Invid. Each Alpha or Beta could declare, "What? Only 10 Shock Troopers? I launch 40 missiles, 4 at each." Each battle would be over and quickly (in a matter of seconds instead of it being a less-decided battle). Invid don't use any anti-missile defenses, automatic or otherwise, do they? I can't remember because my head's fuzzy at the moment. But yeah. No flares, no chaff, no anti-missile turrets, no ECM, etc.. Instead of them being a threat, it would turn into another Great Marianas Turkey Shoot (pause this video at 00:50 and just take a good look at all of those kill markers! It was nuts!).

And earlier? Against the Bioroids of the Robotech Masters? They might think to try and shoot these volleys down, but their sled-riders only use lasers, right? Isn't that like a 45% chance of volley detonation if they hit the first missile (which I think if it isn't a Called Shot in Robotech 2nd Edition should be).

It would make you wonder how the RDF won the First Robotech War when single units like the Female Power Armors, each hauling 126 missiles, would by themselves, just clean house. As would the rare Armored Veritechs against the Battle Pods.

3. Ultimately, why use any other weapon if you can "flurry" every Action? Just have ammo nearby (preferably in the form of fully-loaded Veritechs waiting for you to just hop into). All this, and we haven't even gotten into medium and long-range missiles.

Even if one introduced a mechanic where a "Death Blossom" would take up all of your actions, where is the fun in this? Projectile guns can't do this. Melee of course is obsolete. Why use anything else but missiles? Why do anything else when things get serious? We would just launch and sit back and yawn. Sure, it might be fun at first, but... am I the only one who thinks it would get tedious?

4. And, please be careful of the "we'll make a special rule for it." Hey! Even if it did take up all of one's Actions, if some enemies survive it, what do you think the next Player should do? The same thing. So now the Game Master is stuck in a dying game where they have to start making up more rules ('O.K.., you can dodge missiles of any number now") or elements that are either silly ("The Invid use our chaff and flares now! Wonder where they got those from?") or just not fun ("The Bioroid's sled has an anti-missile shield that eats up your missiles because it keeps out physical dangers, but oh yeah! You can still get in there and melee him if you want! That's cool, right?" No. It's not). So be careful here. Heh!

Side note: If we're talking the "we have the technology" argument, to hell with missiles - lasers (yes, like that laser pointer you play with your cat) should be at the top-tier of this list, T say. Short range missiles move through the air in the same ballpark as bullets, in the hundreds of miles per hour. Lasers move at the speed of light (hence lightspeed). That's 671 million miles per hour! Dodge that! You literally cannot move fast enough.

But yeah. That's what I think. Sorry, this post is unedited. I'm going to get some coffee and breakfast now. Love you guys. More later. =)

 

[Purr]

NOTE: Long wordy post below! Hope you enjoy it. =)

Edit to above post: I realize I hadn't even gotten into what happens when the idea of "multiple-target salvos per Action" gets used against the Players. I imagine thoughts like, "Well, the enemy shoots at all of us with one Action? No problem! I'm in my Cyclone/Silverback and Sherwood says we all have Automatic Dodge." "Except volleys of 4 or more cannot be dodged. Period. And he just launched 10 at each of you." "Did you say '10'?" "Yep! He'll be out of missiles after all of that, but hey! He'll be out of enemies too! That's you guys!"

Here's another winner. "What do you mean, the Invid now have their own version of Female Power Armor?" Heh! =)

One final thing to bring up: s natural 1-4 on the to hit roll is an automatic miss for some reason; a weapon misfire, or you were just of target enough to miss clean.

On the flipside, a 20 is an automatic hit.

(bold mine)
Bud? I love that rule! It makes for such smoother and easier combat. Way back before we had Play-by-Post (or Internet!), I don't have to tell you that most games were played across tables (with the rest being Play-by-Mail. Remember when that was a thing?).

Most games I played didn't have the super-high Ability Scores/Attributes of the Robotech games we share. I believe Siembieda (see my signature below) who came up with the idea that if the d20 result is a 1-4, don't bother. It's not worth adding up to find out.

Plus, anyone who has done any serious sparring can tell you - at least 20% (1-4) of the strikes thrown would probably have been better off being saved up. Same goes for grabs. Watch any boxing match. How many of the punches just plain miss ("miss" meaning the defender did not have to take any action to defend themselves including Automatic Parry. The attempted attack was just too off, inaccurate, etc.)?

Unfortunately, the missles targeting systems do not lock on to their designated target and the missiles miss their target completely.

"Who programmed the guidance systems on those things?"

Eonivar Psychie Sherwood STYLE NOTE DISCLAIMER: I am not here to tell anybody how to play or run their game. But if declarations like these are now being allowed, I want to know.

Everyone has their own way of expressing themselves (at least I hope they do). My "issue" (for lack of better term) is declarations like this (in my way of playing which can be freely ignored) is the Player going into Game Master territory. Now, Eon! I think the world of ya, buddy! Please don't take this as anything besides a difference in gaming style and a request towards Sherwood to see what he's comfortable with. You hear me? =)

What I see here: The Player's declaration (fire a volley of missiles at the enemy) has rolled a clear miss (1-4 in Palladium rules). No problem (except I wish he would've hit, but hey, that's me!). It's when the Player, not the Game Master, tells the rest of the gaming table why that I have to raise my own hand in curiosity.

Why do I feel this way? 1. In the many past games Sherwood has run with me as a Player on-board, when a Player misses, he as the Game Master declares the reason why. 2. I feel if miss results are left up to the Player, then the Player might (without their design or perhaps even being aware of it) can influence the outcome of something that I feel should be left in the hands of the Game Master. 3. Some Players can further step into matters I feel are best left decided by the Game Master. 4. We don't have to worry about in-game messes like, "The minute we land, I get out and I chew my crew chief's ass for giving me missiles that not only didn't fire, but endangered me and my buddies! Goddamn crew chief!" to which the Game Master has every right to ask, "Well, who decided that?"

Now. I don't mean anything innocent like Onni in the hangar bay of the Normandy making every NPC within earshot Lynn Minmei fans to the point of it becoming a ship tradition. (If the GM allows that - or any rule - who am I to tell them otherwise?) But why would a Player miss and then say anything bad happened to their character or the squad? It's almost like the opposite of a Fumble. In the past, when Sherwood has described our misses, he lays down details we cannot. Like, "the bad guy was just too fast and dodged you," or "the cannon momentarily glitches/overheats and you lose your Action which causes the miss," or - and this one always got my attention! - "your missile failed to fire."

Spoiler: Side note for interested folks. Failure to Fire.

In firearms terminology, this is sometimes called a "hang fire" where the trigger was pulled, there was a definite click, but no bang. What has happened? Well, it could be a number of things depending on a larger number of things. But what do you do? I keep my firearm aimed downrange for at least 30 seconds in case the bullet has failed to ignite. I certainly do not try to fire again until this safety issue is cleared! If I fail to do this, the bullet may go off (accidental discharge) which, if you put a bullet into someone, it's not exactly a moment you can take back and "do over" again. Hang fires included.

In our game, we're dealing more often with missiles - live explosive ordnance! Oh noes! If a missile performs a "hang fire," it "should" be O.K.. because all modern day missiles in my understanding do not arm themselves until they are a certain distance away from their aircraft. Heck, even the old M-79 40mm grenades of Vietnam era didn't arm themselves until they were about 20 feet away from the weapon (not to mention the soldier using it!).

So yeah! Whenever Sherwood said, "Your missile is still on/in your missile rack after you told it to fire." Immediately, I was left thinking, "Is this character about to explode?" Well, logic suggests "No. The missile shouldn't be armed." Yet something in the pilot's brain is probably screaming, "If all were working as intended, the damned missile wouldn't be on my aircraft, now would it?!" Hah!

In the rare times in first-hand war accounts told by books in my library, every time a missile has failed to fire has happened on a fighter jet (a very, very rare occurrence!), each pilot had damn near the same reaction. "Get that fucking thing off of my aircraft before something worse happens!" like an armed missile with a failed engine that just got hit by enemy fire. Because if the missile on your wing explodes, SO DO YOU!! Ha ha! Yow, right? =)

I've also noticed with Players in general that if given this kind of freedom, some Players will be tempted to "test the waters" (again, not you, Eon! You've shown no sign of this). What at first starts out as, "My missiles missed because they failed to lock - it wasn't my fault; blame the missiles" can down the road turn into, "My missiles missed my intended target, but HEY! GM! Maybe my salvo hit the bad guy behind my intended target? Can we roll for that?" (I swear I have seen this with my own eyes and not only in games I was running, but as a Player too! "Really, fellow gamer dude? Did your failure turn out to be a big win because You Said So and NOT the GM? Who is running this game?")

I feel when the Player has the power of making these kinds of declarations, they (possibly without meaning to) take that roleplaying element out of the Game Masters hands. Worse still, they add it to their own. For my gaming style? I describe every miss (yes, including "you flinched" or "you misjudged the shot and that's why it missed). I also describe every Fumble on my Fumble tables and Critical Hits (more on that if requested).

If Sherwood is cool with everyone doing this, I want to know to because him telling us so is not only a change in behavior on his part that I am unused to (with ADHD on my part), but it remind me that I will have to declare why C'osmo missed. Knowing me, to avoid favoritism or "Player Always Wins," I'll just roll percentile dice and tell what the dice say. Heh!

Honor and fun,
Dann =)

 

[Eonivar]

(Yes I saw the Last Starfighter in the theaters when it came out)

Whatever works for everyone. I will side with whatever Sherwood decides.

I always saw Robotech the series as dramatic, fire all your missles at once to kill the bad guys in a massive series of explosions (my friends always called that the Scott Bernard maneuver...as every single time in that alpha he would fire ALL OF HIS MISSLES AT ONCE...and we thought they were trying to conserve stuff..although Rick Hunter to be fair was not any better usually but at least he had a home base that had factories to produce more missles).

One the other hand, I feel that the Palladium rules set never did dramatic well, and that many different versions were often copied from one game to the next without real thought of consistency or flavor. It was originally a very "simple" system created back in the day of Advanced Dungeons and Dragons. I admit I had to laugh to myself when years ago they spoke of the 2nd Edition Rule Set for Robotech (and in Rifts Ultimate edition) because i really did not see much of a difference, it was more of the same of what your GM felt worked best in the rules...attacks, strike/parry/dodge..static damage that does not really affect you until you run out of points.

Anyway I think we are heading into Game Theory here with the simulationist vs narrativist vs gamist arguments here.

Bottom line...whatever rules work...if i can tell a story and describe it for my character...I am down with it.

To be fair, I had Onni fire the missles in his shield because what moron designs something that is designed to take damage with missiles in it? I thought it was odd and I figured Onni would think it odd too..so he is just happy to not have the chance of his left arm blowing up if it were to take damage.

So on with the next turn...I think that 80mm laser cannon will be in use going forward.

 

[Purr]

(Yes I saw the Last Starfighter in the theaters when it came out)

Yaaaay! 8D

I always saw Robotech the series as dramatic, fire all your missles at once to kill the bad guys in a massive series of explosions (my friends always called that the Scott Bernard maneuver...as every single time in that alpha he would fire ALL OF HIS MISSLES AT ONCE...and we thought they were trying to conserve stuff..although Rick Hunter to be fair was not any better usually but at least he had a home base that had factories to produce more missles).

Yeah! It looked great in Macross the movie, too! =)

I admit I had to laugh to myself when years ago they spoke of the 2nd Edition Rule Set for Robotech (and in Rifts Ultimate edition) because i really did not see much of a difference, it was more of the same of what your GM felt worked best in the rules...attacks, strike/parry/dodge..static damage that does not really affect you until you run out of points.

I have to agree. I still think of their 2.0 as a 1.5 ruleset. Even their rules on their own website don't add up sometimes.

Bottom line...whatever rules work...if i can tell a story and describe it for my character...I am down with it.

Likewise! =)

To be fair, I had Onni fire the missles in his shield because what moron designs something that is designed to take damage with missiles in it? I thought it was odd and I figured Onni would think it odd too..so he is just happy to not have the chance of his left arm blowing up if it were to take damage.

I see your point here and here's where I bring up the fact that I'm no expert in Cyclones. Some have those small Forearm Shields, some don't, right? Also, I think those take a Called Shot to hit? Either way, don't the launchers have M.D. protection? It's not like the ordnance and fuel tanks on combat jet fighters in Real Life are just hanging out in the breeze.

Or am I wrong about that? I'm in the Lore section and I'm not certain.

 

[Purr]

Do not mind Onni, he is just going to shoot the wall with all of his might.

Poor, poor wall too bad it cannot fight back although I am sure the invid will. ;-)

Hey, you don't know how that wall aided the Invid! It was a spy all along! *enter dramatic music* =)

Haven't you ever heard the old saying, "the walls have ears?" =)

 

[Eonivar]

I see your point here and here's where I bring up the fact that I'm no expert in Cyclones. Some have those small Forearm Shields, some don't, right? Also, I think those take a Called Shot to hit? Either way, don't the launchers have M.D. protection? It's not like the ordnance and fuel tanks on combat jet fighters in Real Life are just hanging out in the breeze.

Or am I wrong about that? I'm in the Lore section and I'm not certain.

Well that goes back to the rules versus "in game" reality. Per the rules Onni could take damage on his shield all day and nothing will happen or effect him until its MDC is depleted but in game reality, Onni thinks "There are Hi Explosive Missiles stored underneath this thing on my arm, the last thing I want to do is use this thing as a shield"

 

[Purr]

Well that goes back to the rules versus "in game" reality. Per the rules Onni could take damage on his shield all day and nothing will happen or effect him until its MDC is depleted but in game reality, Onni thinks "There are Hi Explosive Missiles stored underneath this thing on my arm, the last thing I want to do is use this thing as a shield"

No kidding! Even if they follow the rules of Real Life missiles and don't arm until they've been launched some distance, I guess our squad, C'osmo especially, is just covered in little rocket-powered bombs. We'll just have to make certain the Invid do the exploding and not us. =)

 

[Sherwood]

We will go without making any changes to the rules regarding missile attacks, at least for now. Any changes will be discussed at length and reviewed at a later date.

 

[Purr]

We will go without making any changes to the rules regarding missile attacks, at least for now. Any changes will be discussed at length and reviewed at a later date.

Sure! If you get serious in wanting to keep the rule and want me to help out with it, I could help by perhaps creating variant rules for you to try out? I doubt if I'd use them in Broadsword, but I want to contribute in every game I'm in. =)

 

[Sherwood]

You got it. If we can come up with an idea that can work without taking away the fun of the game, I'll be all over it. But for now, we'll run this battle with our standard missile rules. You're up, my friend.

 

[Sherwood]

Maybe a special swarm munition that can be used to attack multiple targets at once. Hmmm. I'll think on this idea and see what I can come up with.

 

[Purr]

Maybe a special swarm munition that can be used to attack multiple targets at once. Hmmm. I'll think on this idea and see what I can come up with.

Perhaps it comes with a Strike penalty of -1 per target after the first? Up to a maximum of (flat number, PC's P.P. modifier, number decided by type of missile with Reflex missiles having a bonus, etc.)?

Just tossing out ideas. Use or toss as you please.

 

[Sherwood]

That is a valid idea. I'll put that in the slow cooker of my mind and see what comes up.

 

[Purr]

Happy "cooking!" That's some of the best fun in roleplaying - making the make-believe! 8D

 

[Purr]

Purr is up next to declare his action.

You're up, my friend.

A bump for Purr . You are up next with C'osmo.

Sherwood

Buddy. I love ya! And I'm glad you're hot to play the game... but THREE TIMES in 24 hours is a bit much!

Go post in one of my games if you're hot to post. I'll post when my brain is able. Right now is not that time (I'm trashed from an overly full day). Again, love ya (but cool it, would ya?)!

Honor and fun,
Dann

 

[Sherwood]

Lol Sorry. I didn't mean to be pushy.

 

[Sherwood]

I got an update from cthuluneedsahug aka Jake. He hasn't forgotten about us, but has been really busy with his moving and work and has not yet finished his character. I told him not to stress as Real Life always comes first.

Just so everyone knows.

 

[Psychie]

Cool beans. Thanks for the update.

 

[Sherwood]

Of course.

 

[Purr]

The missiles fly out but fail to lock on, and they end up hitting the wall next to the Invid that Onni was aiming at, blowing several craters in the wall.

Sherwood

You have mentioned that the ship is in bad condition. Is it safe for more missile fire or does it look like we should stay with guns?

 

[Sherwood]

Sherwood

You have mentioned that the ship is in bad condition. Is it safe for more missile fire or does it look like we should stay with guns?

If you miss with guns or missiles enough times, bad things will happen. It all depends on the dice if you roll poorly.

 

[Psychie]

I guess the lesson here is, Don't miss!

 

[Psychie]

Did we ever come up with any votes for a squad name? I like either Cerberus or Chimera. What does everyone else think of that?

Eonivar Purr cthuluneedsahug Sherwood

 

[Sherwood]

Did we ever come up with any votes for a squad name? I like either Cerberus or Chimera. What does everyone else think of that?

Eonivar Purr cthuluneedsahug Sherwood

That is your call to make as the players, not mine. I like them both, though.

 

[Eonivar]

Did we ever come up with any votes for a squad name? I like either Cerberus or Chimera. What does everyone else think of that?

Eonivar Purr cthuluneedsahug Sherwood

Chimera is good.