[OOC] To the Roots... [The Hidden Truths]

Well the debt thing makes it all interesting, since you can over train yourself and progress much faster than you should.


Picture Daki learning/ teaching simultaneously all of the traits that can be boosted to +1 with this. It will take him like 10 weeks (1 per field).


And considering the very few hours of study / teaching needed, I suspect you can stack lessons to a maximum of your willpower capabilities (to a maximum of 4 simultaneous lessons per week).


Okay the xp debt can become, if not carefully planned, problematic (since every xp you win will be devoured by you fulgurant progression), but compared to the benefits of ridiculous training times... I don't know if this isn't worth it all.


fhg: the charm specifically stops the increase to 4 so we remain in the mortal limits... but even then it is incredibly powerful. In two weeks I can educate a number of people from intelligence 2 to 4... this is simply awesome. There is however no mention of the max number of people you can educate in any given session.
 
An often-suggested houserule for limiting the number of people able to be trained at a given time is (Essence) Magnitude. Still pretty ridiculous, but it provides a set boundary. SRC?
 
Okay so


- first phase of the plan: get along with the masses (performance / presence).


- second phase: teach them / train them. (secondary objective raise essence and build a university and a training camp)


- third phase: give them a purpose and don't stray from the plan (cause those guy, even if they are extras for now are sufficiently well trained and clever to rebel against you).


Actually... wasn't this what the dead solar was doing ?! (except she used a Cult, and Daki won't) :roll:
 
Question, not trying to break the system or anything, but isn't it possible to incur tremoendous xp debt, and simply pay the minimum payment of 50% each time you get xp....?


Admittedly you may never pay it off, but considering what can be increased....receiving half xp from there on might be worth it....


Thoughts? Corrections?
 
Yes, I'd go with (Essence) Magnitude.


As for the XP debt, and paying it off. I wouldn't force you to spend all your XP on paying it off, but I don't want you running around training everyone to the max, and gain an XP debt so big it's unlikely you'll ever pay it off.


If I think it's being abused, I'll deal with it, but I assume you are all mature enough not to do that.
 
Nah I think that's 50% xp per training. Meaning if you get more than 2 lessons a week, your debt divides the xp you recieve in more than 2 to compensate the debt, to the point where you can have no xp to spend for a long time, because of the xp debt.


In the case of a pbp game, considering the large sum of xp recieved, it is still extremely advantageous for non favored abilities, the first dot in any ability (3 weeks that can be done in 1), virtues and attributes.


Cool thing about it is Daki can progress with you (since he can train while teaching). So each session will give all the characters a +1 and enable Daki to train further.


But the most practical use of it is clearly on extras though... a performance roll to recruit students and then intensive training !


Wait til Daki gets to both LSC and LWC (10 charms and essence 4, not before some time)... and then with a year dedicated to the intensive training of a community he will be able to develop a yet undetermined number of extras (let's say Magnitude = Essence, so up to 300 people with Essence 4) with 4dots in roughly most of their traits:


- all attributes except appearance (I'm no miracle worker :lol: )


- all abilities (even exotic crafts... did my brain just whispered "magitech"...)


- every virtue


- willpower to 7


So let's say I can teach up to 4 traits a week, considering I train only townsfolk, I'm going to need (yeah I crunched the numbers):


Attributes: 14 lessons to all attributes to 4


Virtues: 10 lessons to all virtues to 4


Abilities: 20 lessons to upgrade the basic package of the commoner (not counting craft here), and 64 lessons for the other skills.


Willpower: 3 lessons


TOTAL: 111 lessons.


With 4 lessons a week that gives us a nearly perfect class of mr 4s in 28 weeks... :shock:


Clearly, you need to regulate this, set some sort of limit on principle as a ST (possible fix for a very broken set of charms).


Of course I will not abuse this system as a player, and I won't get there until a very looong time (120 xp + a lot of training times to get the essence and the 10 charms).


I do not intend to exclusively spend all of my xp on this aspect of the character (though it IS his original concept to become an element of change through education of the masses), and won't probably be able to use it because of the potential lack of downtime (that depends on you).


So rest assured you're safe from a nation of ubermensch rising within the coming year :wink:
 
Possible fixes:


- about the xp debt you can stack: I'd say no more than (essence of the trainer) traits simultaneously increased... this way you're xp debt is repayed pretty quickly. The training is still limited to the willpower available to the exalt, in any case he can't give more than 4-5 raises a week.


- you need to put another limit like "unless one of your debt is fully repayed, you cannot raise another trait" (meaning you can't progress in another trait if you're still repaying 4 debts, but can once you get the number of debt to 3), to represent the overload of the brain.


- and the progression: I dunno, maybe no more than +2 in any given trait per month... at the very least).


These limitations change things a bit especially for extras: if you're limiting the maximum number of traits increased to (essence), and the maximum increase for the month to +2 I think it balances itself out.


Instead of 28 weeks to upgrade the bodies and brain it would take like 4 weeks to get 16 +1.


Considering there are 38 traits (8 attributes, 25+ abilities, 4 virtues and willpower) involved, and 111 upgrades to make (considering the basic mortal), that still gives a 7 months delay to train a class of mortals to 4 in all their traits... hmmm maybe +2 for the maximum increase is too much, but reducing it to 1 completely kills the interest of the duration (week), it prevents from abuse though.


OR you could simply set no limit on the increase per month and consider that you cannot stack lessons (which is a bit stupid if you ask me), and then it would take 111 weeks to train the mortals, rouglhy 28 months of not really intensive training (5 hours a week), which I find much more reasonable...
 
Don't worry. If this campaigns keep on for a long enough time, you'll get your chance to use these charms.


As for limits, I'll try and go voer this during the weekend. Woke up less than an hour ago, not the best conductive time for me to crunch such numbers ;-)
 
Hey, I worked til 4 am, and my dog just woke me up at 7 (mew mew meeeew I want to be walked), haven't had breakfast yet... as Rafael used to say: "NO EXCUSE !" :lol:
 
Well, i may not have worked till4 and got woken up by 7. But I need lots of concnetration later today to work on a cabinet I'm building as a school project.
 
RL does get in the way doesn't it ? :roll:


I posed the problem to the ECR too to have some feedback.
 
RL sure does seem to get in the way of gaming :mrgreen:


btw, I posted the axes on the "Path of Exaltation" thread. feedback is appreciated,
 
There's not really much of a problem to training Charms. The biggest thing with them is that they still take time to use. That's a week out of your time as to when you could be completing some far greater purpose. Thinking about how quickly you could train mortals to awesomeness is good, but it's also pointless without context. Do you really have time to sit down and do that? And how do you go about justifying it IC? What does your character think of sitting around and training people for months on end, when, say, the Mask of Winters is plotting his conquest of Lookshy? Etc.


I think they're fine as they are (after the magnitude limitation of course).
 
fhgwdads05 said:
There's not really much of a problem to training Charms. The biggest thing with them is that they still take time to use. That's a week out of your time as to when you could be completing some far greater purpose. Thinking about how quickly you could train mortals to awesomeness is good, but it's also pointless without context. Do you really have time to sit down and do that? And how do you go about justifying it IC? What does your character think of sitting around and training people for months on end, when, say, the Mask of Winters is plotting his conquest of Lookshy? Etc.
I think they're fine as they are (after the magnitude limitation of course).
Click to expand...
Well it's all about developing mortals... as I said on the ECR, a focused education (like a training course for soldiers / workers / craftsman / government officials) would be much faster than those 28 weeks.


I mean it's 300 people, trained with at least 4 traits boosted by +1 per week... a month gives 16 +1 which is huge.


Wanna fight the deathlord's forces ? spend two months building an elite force able to lead men in battle to prevent his armies from threatening the living.


I mean, exalts are cool and powerful, but they'd save the world much faster if they enlightened people around them instead of thinking only they have the power to save the world.


At least that's what my character thinks based on his experience of life.:


Exalts don't win wars, soldiers do.


Exalts don't build nations on their own, people follow them.


The mortals are the fuel of this world, and if one can help them and increase their capabilities, then this world would be a better place much faster.


I think that's what the Lady was trying to do, but she was at the wrong place at the wrong time and didn't plan it through. Daki will do better... once he's ready.
 
And those weeks and months you spend training? Guess what happens? The world keeps moving while you work. Spend two months training Tiger Warriors to fight MoW - he takes Lookshy. Spend half a year training bureaucrats to work in your starting nation - same thing.


I'm not saying you you shouldn't train mortals, because hell, that's like saying you shouldn't play like the God-Kings Solars are supposed to be :P . I'm just saying that those Charms are FAR from unbalanced and that a clever ST will make the world change, maybe even hurt, if you sit away training for months and months on end.


Oh god. I hope I haven't given SRC too much now.... Though, he probably already had this in mind. Evil bastard. >_<
 
Well it's not like every front is going to break right now.


I mean the geopolitical conflicts of Creation are rather complex, and MoW has attracted too much attention for his own good. If he actively moves his armies against a big city, like Lookshy (but he'd be stupid to do so...) he'll expose his flanks in both Thorns and his other positions in the Underworld, and most likely will loose a lot of ressources if he picks the wrong target.


Lookshy has a lot of firepower and is extremely well defended... which is why the Lover planned to take it from the inside with her damn warstrider. Even if the Deathlord itself is virutally indestructible, his armies aren't.


He made a dashing move taking Thorns, but it's not like everyone hasn't realized by now how dangerous the dead are.


Coups can still happen (our setting is proof of it), but I doubt any ST would stack them one after another unless he has a good reason to do so, and is ready to face the consequences of such a background.


And in the eventuality of a front breaking somewhere where we can do something about it... it's better to have backup than not :wink:


Now I am not saying Daki will become some warlord anytime soon; I saw him more like a wandering philosopher trying to help people raise to a better state of being, taking every opportunity he has to improve the human condition... not really the kind of guy who is going to go through every community to raise an army a la Yurgen.
 
It was an example, lol. I understand that Mask has a lot of things working against him and Lookshy couldn't just be taken over nigh-immediately. Though nonetheless, my point still stands.


BTW Karrth, don't forget - in your Exaltation scene, you have access to the Essence Flow charm for every Ability with infinite Essence pools. Spam your excellencies man! There's nothing stopping you from throwing around 20+ die pools like nothing :P .


EDIT: SRC, how far are the Fair Folk away from Silver Tusks? He can move 12 yards per tick at the moment, but I need to know if I need to Guard for a tick and then attack or if I can do so immediately.
 
If I'd known I was so far from the entrance, I would have drawn my throwing knives. Or bought a Thrown Charm instead of Fists of Iron. Something that wouldn't leave me useless for the first half of combat.


Not that it matters. Perfectly happy to sit back and let Tarsus do the work. But I don't have Call the Blade yet, so let me know when I'm not in Move range (or even Dash range in this case). Five ticks is long enough for someone to die.
 
The fair folk will likely advance when it's their turn, after all, they can't all attack the obvious Luunar, and some of need would need to deal with the totemic Dawn, so they are not too likely to notice a hiding Night, though you might want to roll Stealth + Dexterity, so we can see whether they even notice you.
 
I already did. It's near the top of Page 3. I got 13 successes, thanks to my artifact and an Excellency. If they can see me, they've earned any shots they take.
 
Mondays are always terribly busy for me, and today was especially. Tomorrow is pretty busy as well (I've got some projects due Wednesday), but I'll try to see if I can't get it done then. If not, you'll see something Wednesday for sure.
 
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