New Lunar Book

Some random notes on the Lunar PDF:

  • PDF chapters have bookmarks, but that's all. Better than nothing, but not great.
  • Vector based PDF. Yay. Not too much odd rendering from overcomplicated backgrounds (unlike, say, the Black & White Treatise).
  • I've come to the conclusion that the comics at the start of the chapters suck. They are scripted cheesily and the art is generally a cut below the art in the rest of the book. I didn't read the prose at the start of 1E chapters either, but at least that wasted fewer pages. Also, the "full page art" followed by page of prose in the old books usually had some of 1E's best artwork. No one would accuse the comics of that.
  • Many faces of luna. Possibly the first multi-aspected god detailed in Exalted.
  • Skimming the history bits, it seems to fill holes that needed filling. To tell how well, I'll need to go back and read in more detail. One thing that makes the history seem more logical to me is the realization that, during the Usurpation, the lunars didn't know about the Jade Prison. This makes sense, but I never thought about it before. As a result, after the attack, they make a strategic retreat, assuming the solars will reincarnate soon for a counterattack in force. Oops. Also, decent explanation of why the lunars had to retreat into the Wyld (because it is outside Fate).
  • The Silver Pact is sort of much less mandatory than before, now more of a survival mechanism than a cultural force.
  • Quite a bit more on culture building that I expected. Perhaps more than is necessary. Though, any information on Chiaroscuro is most welcome to me. I think the meta idea of the Thousand Streams River is to place lunars as both the secret and not so secret masters/influencers of the "fringe nations", connecting them to humanity more than in 1E. My first impression is that this allows some cooler stories and easier integration of lunars into campaigns.
  • All shapeshifting stuff changed into "Knacks", not charms. At generation, Knacks are cheaper than out of caste charms, but more expensive than in caste charms. Knacks have prerequisites, but no other traits (i.e. no cost or type). This means, among other things, that some shapeshifting that was reflexive in 1E (e.g. DBT) no longer is. Basically, knacks work like permanent enhancements to the lunar's basic shapeshifting ability. Both charms and knacks are still stupidly expensive xp wise, for no evident reason.
  • Heart's Blood is slightly less stupid than before. I still like my version better, but the 2E version may make more sense, given the new sacred hunt rules mean learning forms is a bit more involved than just eating now.
  • Mechanical advantages of having Solar mates. Interesting.
  • Artifact tattoos are cool.
  • Anima effects are about what you'd expect, given the 2E changes to solar anima.
  • Fans of Harmonious Jade are likely to be perturbed.
  • In case dice pool limits in 2E weren't complicated enough, they get even more wacky when shapeshifting is involved. And with Attribute excellencies that "also increase a character's Attribute directly".
  • Not sure I like the Tell mechanics.
  • Interesting knacks: giving someone else a shape, some for taking shapes not previously valid for lunars (e.g. demons, elementals, wyld mutants, plants), learning forms without killing target, learning shapes from other lunars, various ways of circumventing restrictions of the new shapeshifting mechanics.
  • DBT is not nearly as powerful as it was in 1E. For many character types, I can see it being unnecessary and superfluous. At the same time, DBT actually seems cooler now. Many of the cooler DBT gifts are eliminated in favor of charms that do the same thing, with caveats in the charm that expand their abilities under DBT. Since the the higher xp cost for 1E charms was supposedly "justified" by the power of DBT, nerfing DBT without adjusting xp costs seems even stupider.
  • This phrase is most welcome "As is normal, Charms that add automatic successes or remove penalties do not count as increases to a dice pool unless otherwise noted." This means that the rules for Second Excellency in the Core Book are definitely the exception, not the rule.
  • As with the Core Book, charm trees have been made wider, but not as deep. This is a huge change for lunars, as some of the 1E trees were seven or more charms deep. Given the high xp cost, though, this is probably still broken, as there are a lot of charms and some trees still go pretty deep.
  • Relentless Lunar Fury is the new DBT, though is a neat idea. Gives lunars a bit of the "better to burn out than fade away" that terrestrials have, though only briefly and only with certain effects. Fits the "raging beast" metaphor better than 1E DBT did, I think.
  • Snake Body Technique (possibly the best 1E lunar combat charm) now part of Lunar Hero Style, but only for lunars.
  • Regeneration isn't what it used to be.
  • To many charms to read completely right now.
  • Skimmed the chimerae section. Seems ok.
  • Skimmed Storytelling section. Decent summary of the tribes in canon in the middle of it.
  • Official word on when the phases of the moon occur. Names of the days.
  • Caste Attributes and anima effects of the lost castes! Yay.
  • Index sucks. Surprise, surprise.
  • Character sheet is a muddy scan. Bizarre.
 
wordman said:
  • Fans of Harmonious Jade are likely to be perturbed.
Why? Did they draw her holding a bow correctly? ;)

wordman said:
  • This phrase is most welcome "As is normal, Charms that add automatic successes or remove penalties do not count as increases to a dice pool unless otherwise noted." This means that the rules for Second Excellency in the Core Book are definitely the exception, not the rule.
Are you referring to the Second Excellency for Solars, or the one mentioned briefly in the Lunar write-up of the core?
 
Flagg said:
Are you referring to the Second Excellency for Solars, or the one mentioned briefly in the Lunar write-up of the core?
The Solar one, which is a success adder, but still runs into dice pool limits. The line I quoted states pretty definitively that the 2nd Excellency uses a charm specific mechanic and does not represent a general rule for success adding charms.
 
I think, based on earlier conversations, that I disagree with your interpretation of how the 2nd Excellency works, but I'd have to see a re-hash of it to be sure.


I won't needlessly de-rail this thread, but I think I'll start another to hopefully clear this up, if you don't mind.
 
Hideously expensive Charms? *confused* 10/11/12 (caste/knack/out of caste) is hideously expensive? I'm happy they changed it from the horrid 12/15 of 1E...if Sids have 9/11 again, I wouldn't be surprised if our games house rule Lunars to 9/10/11...but ANYTHING is better than 12/15...let's learn Charms like mortals learn Martial Arts, yay! >.<
 
I'm not sure I'm on-board with the complaints about Lunar Charm costs, or the house rules to make them cheaper.


Lunars are supposed to be less powerful than Solars, and this is one way to create that effect. The alternative would have to be to start watering down Lunar powers, and then you'd REALLY start to hear people bitch.
 
Indeed. The only reason I might drop it any in my games is if the Sidereals, who are supposedly on the same power level, once again have a lower cost...and then either set Lunars to Sidereal costs...or Sidereals to Lunar costs. The 10/11/12, is still equal to a DB learning their own charms, but granting a more powerful charm set. No longer are they learning their own native charms at the rate of a DB learning Celestial Martial Arts, or a mortal learning Terrestrial Martial Arts.
 
As has been noted before, a lot of the balance will be determined by the Sidereal book, because wasn't that the book in 1st Edition that threw everything into chaos?
 
Yes. There's a reason you don't see Sidereal characters in 90% of my games...and I only let a few players use them, in very limited circumstances... If anything, I mostly use them as antagonists in the rare instance they actually come to the fore.


Of course, now I'm running a game where people are making contact with the Cult of the Illuminated, so that may change a little. Seems like Sids are up next, instead of the Abyssals of last edition...we'll see what happens.
 
Just to note...I'm not complaining about 10/11/12 costs. I had issue with the 1E 12/15 costs. Learning charms like a mortal learns Terrestrial Martial Arts when I'm supposed to be a Celestial Exalt was a problem. I'm happy with the 10/11/12. I'm just confused that wordman called them 'stupidly expensive xp wise' in his commentary post.


The rest of his stuff makes me want my Lunar book to get here all that much sooner. *chuckles* And as I said, the only reason we'd change these in our games would be is Sids had their 1E 9/11 costs of charms...so it hinges on the Sid book.


Which is going to be the next hardback to come out...not the Abyssals. Phooey. I wanted Abyssals. Ah well.
 
I'm happy the Sidereal book is out next. I know others disagree, but I think the 1E Sidereals were the least usable type of Exalt, Charm wise, and I look forward to their revision.


If I need Abyssals in the meantime, I can easily convert the 1E stuff using the new Solar Charms as a guide.
 
That may be why WW decided to do the Sidereals next - the Abyssal book worked well and the Sidereal book didn't.


Doesn't mean I have to like it, though......


:?
 
If Sidereals are to be used they do need a new book, certainly. As did the Lunars. While their order previously looked similar to the old, more likely it was based off 'What books are needed?' Dragonblooded were needed quickly as the most common Exalt type, and frequent antagonists or possibly allies in Solar games. Lunars were poorly built in the previous edition, and are likely to show up in Solar games as well. Sidereals are less likely to show up, but were seriously badly built before...so they need their book. Abyssals had a relativelly functional book, and can be more easilly BSed with existing charms and so forth than the others...being tainted Solars and all.
 
Absolutely. I have no issues, really, with the Siddies getting the next book. I guess I just like Abyssals so much more, so that's my inclination. But I do understand why the Sidereal book is next. They do need the most help.
 
Dracogryff said:
Hideously expensive Charms? *confused* 10/11/12 (caste/knack/out of caste) is hideously expensive? I'm happy they changed it from the horrid 12/15 of 1E...if Sids have 9/11 again, I wouldn't be surprised if our games house rule Lunars to 9/10/11...but ANYTHING is better than 12/15...let's learn Charms like mortals learn Martial Arts, yay! >.<
I need to look at the charms more closely to see if the expense really is still hideous.


The problem in 1E was more than just the 12/15 cost. It was also a design thing. The 1E lunars were the exact opposite of the sidereals. The sidereals had a relatively small number of charms, but the charms in general had very broad effects. Lunars had a relatively high number of charms, but the charms in general had very narrow effects. Solars are somewhere in the middle, but with the advantage that they had types of charms that others do not (perfection, cheap persistent defenses, etc.) making them more powerful in general.


You could argue, therefore, that to be balanced in 1E, if you took a solar, a lunar and sidereal of the same xp range, the lunar should really have more charms than the solar, who should have more than the sidereal (with the solar still having the edge due to the aforementioned perfection and persistants, as well as higher dice caps). If I were starting a new 1E game, I'd change the lunar xp cost for lunar charms to be lower than that of solars (7/9) with MA charms at 12. (I don't happen to think sidereals were overpowered, given their nearly crippling, largely non-mechanical, disadvantages. But, those for those that do, the same logic would have their charm costs being increased).


I'm not sure 2E will follow the same logic, but there do seem to be a ton of charms in the book. I have to read more to see if they are as narrowly focussed as they were in 1E.
 
So, wow.  I thought I'd hit rpg.net for other opinions on Lunars, but I don't think there's going to be anything useful coming from there.  The current threads seem to revolve around........


"Exalted is broken because Lunars are sometimes sneakier than the Night Caste".


If only I could use such overreaching exaggeration at work and get away with it!


"Boss, boss!"


"What?"


"One of our Web servers needed to be restarted today.  Clearly this is an unmistakeable sign of the total uselessness of our deployment process.  We have all failed."
 
So I see. It is rather pathetic. Especially since Lunars were already better at that sort of thing than Night Castes in 1st Ed...not too many people are suspicious of the house cat just sitting there listening...or the dog sleeping nearby, or...well, plenty of sneaky options. Of course, that still doesn't let them do some of the other things a Night Caste can...but anyone who is throwing a fit over shapeshifters being better inflitrators than non-shape shifters is an idiot.
 
:roll:


Yay for the panzee elves of Exalted land...  Damn bastards get to skip the real meat for rights of who gets the next book...  


C'est La Vie.


Any case, I agree.  So long as they balance the Sidereals, I won't mind too much.  Hey, if this was anywhere near as bad as another particular game I play, then Solars would have an 'additional' faction book of comparable size to everyone elses, released between each 'other' release...  


No, I'm not bitter at a specific model gaming company...   :P


-edit-


Picked up my copy of the Lunar book at my local "Grade-Y" gaming store filled with the usual reek of many (MANY) unwashed bodies.  Not to say I'm any more charismatic of an individual...   :wink:


New Lunar book looks good so far.  I've flipped through it, read a few bits, and overall it meets (at least my) approval.  Artwork looks good.  Comic stories look very good.  And I dig some of the concepts, like Tattoo Artifacts.    Overall, I rate it with a 43 jars of Mayonnaise.
 
They didn't say a thing... BUT...


Lunar Hero Style... it's scary as Lunars can use their dexterity score for working out what they can get.


Also, it's love. I've got the pdf, and I've gone over it once... will need to go over with a fine tooth later.   :D
 
AAAAAAAAAGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!


I, like Dracogryff, ordered the book from Amazon. At first, delivery was scheduled for the 7th through the 10th. Now it's the 12th through the 18th!!!!!!! That's almost two weeks!!!!!!


CURSE YOU, AMAZON!!!!!!!!!


:evil:  :evil:  :evil:  :evil:
 
The Haku has got his grubby fingers on the pdf.


rpgdrivethru doesn't lie or delays delivery. ya'know.
 
my FLGS got theirs in yesterday, so I will sit at my desk pretending to work while reading it.


So far, I like how they explained the Solar/Lunar 'mate' thing.  And they used existing game mechanics too.  :shock:
 
New Rule: You're not allowed to make reference to something in a book I still don't have yet without actually explaining it in some detail.
 
Haku said:
The Haku has got his grubby fingers on the pdf.
rpgdrivethru doesn't lie or delays delivery. ya'know.
Yeah, but the disadvantage of pdfs, particularly if you don't have a laptop (which I don't), is that if you want to read it, you have to sit at the computer. I'd rather have the book in my hot little hands. Or at least this book......
 

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