How to learn about the curse?

[Charon]

My question is, how would they know to ask a demon? Do they always ask demons to questions they don't know? If they do, then maybe it's plausible. But if they don't, then what gives them the idea to ask a demon? Particularly since the demon would conceivably have the information they need?

I don't seen any problem there.  The hard thing is suspecting there is something wrong with the essence shards themselves.  Once you suspect that, why not suspect the Yozis?


If you come to believe that someone fouled up the essence shards, you'll find that the list of suspects who could have done it is very short.


---


As an aside, I feel that some people take "anti-metagaming" too far.  (Not aimed at anyone in particular).  You'd swear that the best way to make a secret impossible to discover is to publish it in a sourcebook.  Because then people will insist the PC can't know about it, it would be metagaming!  Kidding.  Kinda.


---


Most Solars know (or can learn) that ancient Solars all went crazy.  Not one or two.  Not half.  Pretty much all of them.


Solars all remember their "human life".  It was just a few months ago!  They know that they weren't quite as "emo" back then.  


They know (or can soon learn) that they received an essence shard (or at least were imbued with some form of external power).  


Now.  


Before the shard, I was normal.  After the shard, beside being powerful, I'm more "emo".   Centuries down the line, all of my kind in the past has gone crazy and I have no real reason to believe this time will be different.


Hum.  Normal.  Then shard.  Then crazy.  Normal.  Shard.  Crazy.  Normal.  Shard.  Crazy.  OOh!  I know, the shard makes us crazy!  Yeah, gimme five.   Hum.


Seriously, with 150 Solars of various mental aptitude and degrees of self awareness,  two or three of them are bound to understand that the Solars are cursed within the first 5 years of their return to creation.  Sure, many will rationalize away because it's more confortable then facing the truth.  t's not within the mental ability of everyone but it's not exactly Einstein level leap of intuition either.  All it takes is good self-awareness and basic logic aptitude.

 

[FluffySquirrel]

Firstly.. .. I think you're getting a little too far in some points.. .. I'll cover a few..


Solars who know that all the ancient solars went crazy.


These are typically people with the past lives merit.. and a high level of it at that... .. can you say linked throwback? .. the two fit -awfully- well together.. and are you gonna trust a guy who turns into a crazy first age solar every tuesday? ^^


Even then though.. .. are the memories subjective?.. perhaps all the memories are tinted -through- the eyes of the solar who experienced them, after all, they're -his- memories, not this new incarnations, and exalted loves shades of grey. So he killed a few thousand people.. so what?.. he perhaps did it to save billions


Also.. as was mentioned further back.. quite a few of the curses aren't really that bad (comparatively).. so what, you remember occasionally the weight of all the negative emotions that your first age incarnation experienced would cause him to weep uncontrollably for days on end and neglect his duties.. .. if you were -that- burdened by all the bad shit that happened, and people came and killed you for it, saying you were all crazy.. do you -really- find that justified?.. or a GROSS over generalisation? .. sure.. there were some with Red Rage, or Berserk Anger.. but there were also plenty with less kill happy limits.. but hey, they all got killed together anyway.. now, to me.. that suggests that the usurpation and 'kill all the crazy solars' wasn't overly justified, especially when you have nice solars like the mother of the realm and such.


.. phew.. rambling more than I planned.. sorry ^^


Next.. learning about the ancient solars going crazy..


There are a few ways of doing this..


First Age texts. This text shows signs of heresy and has thus been censored - Courtesy, your friendly neighbourhood night caste.


Yeah, other than the texts written as propganda for the coming usurpation, I bet not much text was allowed where people could rail on about their solar overlords.


Lunars: .. yeah, good luck with that... they have their own agendas, and even -they- can't make their mind up whether the solars were good or bad (as per the various factions). They even have a whole faction which practically worships them, and general knowledge is going to vary from lunar to lunar, depending how snuggly they were to their solar mates.


Also.. the ones with really nice mates tended to die with them.. yeah.. slightly biased survivors probably.


Demons: You're going to take the word of a -demon- ?


Sidereals: *snicker* .. dunno bout you.. but I think maaaaybe you can't trust em to be totally honest.


Gods/Spirits: These are actually probably your best bet.. -but- .. the terrestrial ones tend to be limited in how much they know/saw, while the celestial ones likewise tend to have their own opinions, or are silenced by threat of siddy death squad.


Deathlords: No bias there, no sir.


The problem is, that anyone who is as you say, highly intelligent and investigative enough to potentially solve this problem, is going to find out pretty much what I detailed above.. -all- the reports and knowledge are biased in various ways, and you just can't take anyone's word at face value.. because truth is.. all the solars were different, some were indeed relatively nice.. others weren't.. and so it hardly seems like proof that -all- the solars were crazy and there's magically something wrong with them, instead, you find that the ones who are battle happy tend to go kill lots of stuff, while ones who are really compassionate either try and fight against it, or get all weepy.. .. which hardly seems that crazy to me.


So yes.. applying the logical aptitude often -is- using the ooc knowledge we have.. cause yes.. the great curse -is- obvious when you know about it.. .. but you're never gonna find a rules book in a hidden ruin that details it, and you have to question, if it -was- that easy, why didn't the first age solars, with their crazy high intelligence (that you simply can't get unless you're 2000 years old or so) figure it out?

 

[Haku1]

Of course... conversely, they KNEW about the Great Curse and it's effect. That it amplifies their nature.


Make the aggressive solar more likely to fight and kill, and the compassionate solar go all help! you, even if I need to kill people to help you or cry...


Now... there is also the fact that when they 'snap', they FEEL good. They get back willpower, they are acting in-line with their virtues.


Also, think on the fact that Solar express their essence in doing things BETTER, in Excelling, in Perfection (or attempting to reach it).


They might -see- the curse as a side effect of their solar-hood. After all, their essence is designed to allow them to be MORE human, to do things better, -perfect- even.


Which would also likely make them act more how their virtues say they should... A valor-based solar would, after all, seek things to beat up, would LIKE beating things up... doesn't it stand to reason that their essence might seek to make them go berserk and BEAT EVERYTHING UP?


They might see the Great Curse not as a curse, but an actual natural evolution of their virtues when their perfect solar essence is applied to it. A Divine Epilany. Perfection attained for a brief moment, when their virtues attain perfection. Which is why they FEEL GOOD coming out of it.


However, their minds, bodies and souls aren't perfect... not yet, which is why it overwhelms them...


So, you might get some solars who consistently strive to be in their limit break, so as to get used to it... and some who would stay out of it as best as they can... trying to perfect their minds, body and souls til they can handle their perfect virtues. Of course, to do this, they may need to... experiment.


To work with the minds, bodies and souls of normal humans... apply the inhumanity of the souls of the Yozi and Unshaped Raksha to their thoughts, bodies and souls, to become MORE than human.


EDIT - added a little bit more in there.

 

[Persell]

I still see no coherent arguement for the great curse being revealed so easily, just a lot of poorly understood canon facts.


1. Like already many others in this thread stated, limit breaks do not feel unnatural for anyone. Not those witnessing them, nor those experiencing them.


2. Abusing your first age spouse does not neccessarily have anything to do with becoming crazy. Your last incarnation could just have been bored to death or an asshole. Being a sadist asshole is bad, but it most often does not come with being crazy.


3. Not all solars went crazy. Some were just corrupt, others were still righteous heroes. Look at the righteous devil or the girl who got taught Ebon Shadow Style. One died trying to kill a mad solar tyrant and the other was hunting mad solars until he got killed during the usurpation (funny fact at the side, both were martial artists. this brings forth the question, whether the enlightment coming with the study of martial arts grants some kind of resistance to the great curse). Nothing crazy in putting down mad godkings.

 

[Jukashi]

Didn't the righteous devil blow himself up along with his students?

 

[Haku1]

Didn't the righteous devil blow himself up along with his students?

Yes, yes he did.


Of course, this might be the solar being in limit break snapping and going nuts on his student.

 

[Persell]

To get right down to the basic points of what Limit Break does:


Everyone snaps when pushed to the limits of their tolerance.  Everyone.  Mortals have a supremely bad day can go batshit on their families or random strangers in the streets at just one comment too many.  Demons forced to work against their natures or Motivations snap under the pressure.  Little gods and elementals working against their designated duties have been known to go wonky.  It's not so hard to imagine that Exalts would have the same instincts and mannerisms.  


It's human nature to be frustrated.  It's human nature to express that frustration in usually fitting, but sometimes odd ways.  Exalts are larger-than-life, humans made epic.  It's only fitting that everything in their nature is magnified in that way.  Including frustration, anger, and intolerance.


The only way I'd let my Solar players know about the Great Curse is if Lytek himself found them suited to aiding him in figuring out a way to remove it, and came down from Yu-Shan himself to tell them.  My two obols, anyway.

 

[Ned]

Hum.  Normal.  Then shard.  Then crazy.  Normal.  Shard.  Crazy.  Normal.  Shard.  Crazy.  OOh!  I know, the shard makes us crazy!  Yeah, gimme five.   Hum.

As was previously stated in this thread, the Lunars have already come to that conclusion.


However, again as was previously stated, their belief is that the Human mind couldn't cope with the perfection granted by the shard and snapped. This is a reasonable conclusion, seeing as the shards designed by Autocthon and thus most probably flawless.


Even if they could percieve limit break as a problem, let alone link it to getting the Shard, there's no reason why they would think the Shard was cursed.

 

[Charon]

Hum.  Normal.  Then shard.  Then crazy.  Normal.  Shard.  Crazy.  Normal.  Shard.  Crazy.  OOh!  I know, the shard makes us crazy!  Yeah, gimme five.   Hum.

As was previously stated in this thread, the Lunars have already come to that conclusion.


However, again as was previously stated, their belief is that the Human mind couldn't cope with the perfection granted by the shard and snapped. This is a reasonable conclusion, seeing as the shards designed by Autocthon and thus most probably flawless.

Yeah, that's right.  There is one acceptable theory out there and it's accepted by the majority, therefore everyone just accept it and stop thinking about the problem.


That's how the the human mind of great thinkers work.  


A thousand years ago everyone believed the world was flat and the sun revolved around the Earth.  That's what our senses told us and what everyone including the church insisted was true.  Who would dare question it?


Come on.  Out of the 30 twilight out there, you are telling me there is no Copernic or Gallileo?  Being like these great thinkers is pretty much why most of them were chosen to exalt in the first place!


---


That conclusion leads the exalted to accept with resignation that they'll go crazy and there isn't a thing they can do about it.


Being proactive beings, the Solars would favor a theory that allow them to fix the problem on principle alone.  


---


It occurs to me that the most likely Solar to work out the curse exist is quite simply someone with two high opposing Virtues.


A Solar with Valor 3+, Compassion 3+ and Berserk Anger for example.  


After murdering a village in the fit of a berserk rage, that Solar is bound to feel horrible about what he done (Compassion 3+).  While being a mortal, he might have had a short fuse, but he'd never have killed children.  And as a chosen of the Unconquered Sun, he is bound to doubt that the Sun meant for him to slaughter innocents as a mtter of course.


A Solar with conviction 3+, temperance 3+  and ascetic drive is bound to wonder what caused him to abandon his friends in their hour of needs (Conviction 3+) to withdraw from the world.  As a mortal he might had felt the need to withdraw from the rat race to meditate, but he was never a quitter that would let his friends down and a crucial task unfinished.  Again, he's bound to doubt that this the behavior the Sun requires from his champion.


There are many combination of virtues / flaws that are completely irreconciliable and force a Solar to face the fact that something is very wrong with him.


Again, they might believe that it's because they are too puny to handle divine power, but since it's a theory that leads to no cure they are going to explore other theories agressively.

 

[The zombie cat]

1. Like already many others in this thread stated, limit breaks do not feel unnatural for anyone. Not those witnessing them, nor those experiencing them.

Where do you get this? At the very minimum, for many solars, limit break would be viewed as a drastic mood swing. The way you act under limit break can be /drastically/ different your normal behavior.


Edward

 

[Haku1]

The limit breaks are not universal in how they trigger or cause the solars to behave.


You're in effect looking at 300 (if you go by the book's statements on how many solars there are) different people who snap and behave -differently- when they're limit breaking.


It's not constant.


And those limit breaks listed in the corebooks? They're -samples-, you can create custom ones to better fit your character.

 

[Persell]

1. Like already many others in this thread stated, limit breaks do not feel unnatural for anyone. Not those witnessing them, nor those experiencing them.

Where do you get this? At the very minimum, for many solars, limit break would be viewed as a drastic mood swing. The way you act under limit break can be /drastically/ different your normal behavior.


Edward

People have limit breaks for their primary virtues, i.e. usually their highest virute. So someone with foolhardy contempt is always valorous "eager to fight". So, people would see that he is more cocky than all the other times around but after all he had to stealth through the imperial city for 2 weeks and now he wants to let it all out. No problem there.


Limit breaks are cathartic experiences, the core book states that way. Why should anyone feel bad about having a willpower of 15?

 

[The zombie cat]

A high compassion solar with deliberate cruelty (conviction flaw), would normally only consider torcher as a last resort (if then), is known for being a kind and caring person. When he limit breaks he becomes wantonly cruel, even with partial controlw the character casually engages in torcher and is incapable of kindness. This lasts a full day, people will notice.


Ascetic drive, a trader working to acquire the resources to bribe key officials transfers his wealth to a charitable organization,  a stalwart companion with a well deserved reputation for reliability (conviction and temperance[keeping a promise]) abandons his friends in there hour of need. Even with partial control a world class negotiator refuses to engage in customary pleasantries. This lasts a full day, people will notice.


Contempt for the virtuous, a temperance based flaw that contradicts good manners, an aspect of temperance. A character known for his manners starts butting into everybody’s business over the smallest indiscretion. Not such a problem with partial control.


Over indulgence, temperance based, character known for moderation. Need I say more?


Berserk anger, the character is known for a controlled fighting style or showing respect for the dead. He charges in wildly, fights without his usual form and continues to beat up the corpses for some time after all opponents are dead.


In all these cases the minimum that could be observed by an outsider is a drastic mood swing, in some such as deliberate cruelty on a high compassion character I would expect the character to regret his action after the fact, and further hate himself for having enjoyed it (as you say, it feels good).


All these things however are not unheard of in mortals, so working out that all solars suffer from this type of thing is not easy, further working out what the cause is is a further problem.


Edward

 

[FluffySquirrel]

Except you're meant to pick a virtue flaw based on your -primary- virtue.. .. and if you picked deliberate cruelty, and then had compassion 5, conviction 3.. it would indeed be weird.. that's why it -seems- weird in your example..


Even if that character had equal stats, compass 3, convic 3 (which is more plausible) .. conviction is still probably more their primary virtue, and it shouldn't really be -too- implausible for them to decide to just focus more on conviction for a while.


And indeed.. if you're having trouble fitting them to characters.. make your own ^^ .. I ended up doing that eventually, after deciding none of the compassion ones really suited my char in the end.. I made one that he liked helping people so damn much, that if they kept refusing his offers of aid, he'd bloody well help them whether they wanted him to or not! .. no matter what they may or may not want help with ^^


It was much more plausible, and more something that he might do if reeeeeeally frustrated.. which is more or less what a limit is after all.

 

[The zombie cat]

First you don’t have to pick a flaw based on your highest virtue, just one of at lest 3 (although I agree it should be your highest)


Second virtues change during game play (with experience). It’s not hard for your highest virtue to change, and this dose not change your virtue flaw.


I have been known to start a character with 2 starting virtues at 4 (spending bonus points), hence why I have given so much consideration to conflicting virtues.


Finally, and I think most significantly, I understood that the limit beak was not necessarily supposed to blend in with your normal behavior. These are drastic flaws that are supposed to worry people, they should be lager than life, not just get brushed away as a bad hair day.


If I am interpreting this incorrectly then I would like to see some quotes to back up your assessment.


Edward

 

[FluffySquirrel]

Yes, it perhaps isn't stated that it has to be highest.. but it -is- states on pg 103 that you pick a virtue flaw related to your 'primary virtue'


It suggests you're giving thought to why this virtue (and the flaw inherent) some way defines your character.. rather than just taking on berserk anger to a char with compassion 5.. which does indeed seem rather odd

 

[Persell]

Just pick virtue flaws which fit with the character concept, mkay?

 

[Persell]

Just pick virtue flaws which fit with the character concept and campaign, mkay?

That's better.

 

[The zombie cat]

Am I correct in my understanding,


You believe that ascetic drive should not be taken by somebody that wasn’t moderately ascetic. Deliberate cruelty shouldn’t be taken by somebody that wasn’t moderately cruel, berserk anger shouldn’t be taken by someone who didn’t have a quick fuse to start with.


If this is correct can you tell me where you got this opinion from.


That dose leave me with only one virtue flaw in the main book that contradicts its linked virtue. Over indulgence is temperance linked. Somebody with temperance 4 or 5 isn’t allowed to have a tenancy to over indulge.


Also as virtue flaws don’t change there is the possibility that a solar may change his way of doing things most of the time to contradict his flaw. For example a barbarian tribesman exalts as a dawn with berserk anger, nobody is going to notice that, but over the next few years he grows to better appreciate the controlled economical fighting style of martial artist, he trains heavily in the martial arts and overcomes his rash tendencies, except when he goes into limit break.


After that type people with notice the discrepancy between his normal behavior and his behavior in limit, they could put it down to reverting to barbarian ways but they will defiantly notice it.


I don’t think the limit flaw is supposed to limit your characters growth and development outside of limit break, I could be wrong, if so pleas site your sources.


Edward

 

[memesis]

After that type people with notice the discrepancy between his normal behavior and his behavior in limit' date=' they could put it down to reverting to barbarian ways but they will defiantly notice it.[/quote']
Many, no doubt, are well disposed, but sluggish by constitution and by habit, and they cannot conceive of a man who is actuated by higher motives than they are, accordingly they pronounce this man insane, for they know that they could never act as he does, as long as they are themselves. -- Henry David Thoreau


In other words, many of the actions of the Exalted could (and would) be considered sheer madness by anyone observing them.  I'm talking about their normal, every day behavior - not to mention Limit Break.  If your PCs are all nice and amiable and cheerful people, and they sit around all day petting puppies and smiling at children, yes, Limit Break will seem unusual.  But that's not what PCs do, in my experience.

 

[The zombie cat]

After that type people with notice the discrepancy between his normal behavior and his behavior in limit' date=' they could put it down to reverting to barbarian ways but they will defiantly notice it.[/quote']
Many, no doubt, are well disposed, but sluggish by constitution and by habit, and they cannot conceive of a man who is actuated by higher motives than they are, accordingly they pronounce this man insane, for they know that they could never act as he does, as long as they are themselves. -- Henry David Thoreau


In other words, many of the actions of the Exalted could (and would) be considered sheer madness by anyone observing them.  I'm talking about their normal, every day behavior - not to mention Limit Break.  If your PCs are all nice and amiable and cheerful people, and they sit around all day petting puppies and smiling at children, yes, Limit Break will seem unusual.  But that's not what PCs do, in my experience.

I didn’t for a moment suggest that the solar in that quote would be petting puppies all day,  I said he would develop his fighting style to show control and economy of movement. I have seen many PCs in various highly combative games adopt this style. They (both players and characters) think it shows maturity. That fighting style is in sharp contrast to berserker anger. It is highly unlikely that this would expose the curse but it will be noticeable.


Personally I think it shouldn’t be hard for anybody with exposure to many solars over a long period of time to realize, that they are prone to extreme mood swings. But then so are many mortals, especially great mortals solars where mortal and there is now one greater in all creation, its nothing to be surprised about once you think about it.


Edward

 

[tjcoonrod]

I work with people whom I swear must have minor limit breaks. They are MOODY as hell!

 

[Persell]

What memesis wanted to explain is that most exalts live already a life that is extremely detached from what they could ever do or dream of before in a postive and a negative way.


Most exalts can casually slaughter a fang or scale of imperial troops and have to do that from time to time. Ask yourself how often it happened in your campaigns...


and yet, killing 25 or more soldiers alone or with two comrades is already madness for most normal people and they could not really cope with it. A limit break is just icing on the cake once you killed a few "enlightened and quasi invincible" children of the dragon and their mortal followers. Just as an example. Look at your campaign and you see yourself that human morals don't fit on exalts usually. Or not as good as they did before the exaltation.

 

[The zombie cat]

For many exalts the morality of a soldier dose fit.  They kill 25 people not because they are a horrific monster that exists only to kill but because they have something to defend, even if it is only there own lives. Ok the fact that they did the deed in under 25 seconds shows there power but anybody with reasonable combat training (regular troops or better) can tell the difference between a disciplined solar defending himself and a solar suffering from berserk anger. Even if they blink and miss the action the state of the battle field afterwards is going to be different.


And then of cause there are all the limit breaks which have characters acting in very different, if only slightly mor detached from reality, ways than normal.


For example the high temperance solar that holds himself to inhuman levels of self restraint, to the extent that immaculate monks think he is taking it too far, has a limit flaw of over indulgence, if anything that will humanizes him in the eyes of others, if not earn him any respect.


Edward

 

[memesis]

\but anybody with reasonable combat training (regular troops or better) can tell the difference between a disciplined solar defending himself and a solar suffering from berserk anger.

This is an assumption which you are entirely free to make, but which may not be shared with the other posters in this thread.