How to learn about the curse?

[Kremlin KOA]

I. DID.


I read the bit where you have to fail a temperance check to overindulge


I read the definition of overindulge


I read what the meaning of excess is in terms of alcohol


A Temperance 5 character will not drink until he is drunk


YOU. Read. The. Rules.

 

[Persell]

Ok, then, how do you create that monk of yours earlier?

 

[Kremlin KOA]

simple.


Temperance does not mean you do not feel temptation.


it means you do not succumb.


the great curse TWISTS or exaggerates your virtues.


in this case it TWISTS it into its opposite for a short period of time.


Since a high Temperance is REQUIRED for this flaw. One of 2 things must be true


1: temperance does not stop you indulging (systematically false)


2: Your assumption of how natural and pre exaltation the curse is happens t be wrong.


You see if you step away from your assumptions it is easy to do.

 

[Persell]

Thing is, the designers say:


Safim is right, Kremlin is wrong.


Your storyteller says: Safim is right, Kremlin is wrong.


About half a dozen other people in this thread said, I am right, you are wrong.


Just suck it up already. You cannot lameass your way into knowing about the curse. What you try to do is not epic but boring and lame and that is why it does not work that way in exalted. End of story.

 

[Persell]

When GMs and Designers clash, GMs win every time. If Kremlin's GM says he's right, then he's right. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. That rightness wouldn't carry over into someone else's game, but it doesn't have to.

 

[memesis]

When GMs and Designers clash' date=' GMs win every time. If Kremlin's GM says he's right, then he's right. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. That rightness wouldn't carry over into someone else's game, but it doesn't have to.[/quote']
The counterpoint is that it is useful for GMs to understand the designers' intentions.  Maybe they don't care, and that's fine, but it helps to understand the intent of a rule before you change it.  I THINK that we've gone over this sufficiently to call it a day, though....

 

[Persell]

When GMs and Designers clash' date=' GMs win every time. If Kremlin's GM says he's right, then he's right. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. That rightness wouldn't carry over into someone else's game, but it doesn't have to.[/quote']
The counterpoint is that it is useful for GMs to understand the designers' intentions.  Maybe they don't care, and that's fine, but it helps to understand the intent of a rule before you change it.  I THINK that we've gone over this sufficiently to call it a day, though....

Agreed on all counts.

 

[Persell]

When GMs and Designers clash' date=' GMs win every time. If Kremlin's GM says he's right, then he's right. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. That rightness wouldn't carry over into someone else's game, but it doesn't have to.[/quote']
Zombie Cat was appearently gamemastering and told him that he could not know about the great curse from a couple of limit breaks... so his gamemaster said he is wrong, too.


But then, this thread lost its purpose long ago. I am out of here.

 

[Flyck]

So you ban that flaw?


because Temperance 5 characters do not indulge in anything to any great extent


not without spending willpower

On one final note (because I agree this post is well and truly over).  No, I wouldn't ban the flaw, and never said I would.  IMHO, the flaw you refer to makes more sense for a character to have if they practice light moderation of substances (i.e. the occasional drink), not total abstinence (unless of course they were originally at one time excessively overindulgent).  


Plus, Temperance generally has more to do with maintaining control of your emotions and keeping a level head.  Just because you have Temp 5, doesn't mean you can't have the occasional drink or knock boots with the Lover.   :twisted:   And yes, I quite enjoy playing high Temperance characters.

 

[Ned]

For the upteenth time, I never said you'd figure the shard is cursed that way.  Just that something is wrong with you since exaltation and that would starts you in the right direction.

I have bolded the important part of the quote above which just proved the point I was trying to make. You figure that something is wrong with you, not the shard. However, it is still possible for someone to put two and two together without assuming the shard is the problem. This post, aimed mostly at Kremlin, goes over what a genius with an analytical mind would go through in order to find the curse.


Many people develop addiction or temper issues after a dramatic change in their life.This could be having a breakdown due to stress or depression, or maybe just giving in for the first time. Either way, whether it is losing control of one's temper or giving in to a vice, normal people who tend to suffer from these outbreaks always say it makes them feel better.


The temperence 5 monk idea that is being thrown around fits into that senario exactly. He looked down upon people who gave into vices, but when the time came that he tried and felt better a seed of doubt would enter his mind, because he would feel the relief that those who suffer from addiction claim to feel. In fact, if he never gave in, then he would have no prior expierence to compare it to and thus it would seem even more natural Basically, one does need to suffer from a flaw before exaltation to take it, because the myriad of vices are so common in humanity that it could just seem to be "I never tried that before I changed, so I don't know any better." If he did give in, then he'd know that he was on the right track all along, and now it's paying off.


(A bit of an aside: it is likely that the more limit breaks one suffers the more they'll give in during normal situations. Not because they limit break more, but they are searching for the familiar boost that a limit breaks gives. Perhaps this explains the late first age solars, after thousands of years of limit flaws and their results they acted as though they were limit breaking when they actually weren't in the hope that they'd get that 15 willpower. In effect, they became addicted to limit break.)


The willpower gain is enough for successive limit breaks to seem less supiscious, because logically the person would just be thinking "it made me feel better last time." In fact the wiser someone who investigates this the more obvious it would seem. There is always a friend of a friend who was a mortal that did things as extreme as this, and the feeling better would just seem as proof that embracing one's flaws is a good thing.


Now comes the hard part, figuring out that it is more extreme than normal. This really is the hardest part, but after this a reason to observe the shard more closely will arise and thus everything else will fall into place. The main problem with this is that while the epic binges and temper tantrums a solar would have seem extreme on the surface, someone with an analytical mind would think "Hey, these guys are so powerful that when they lose control it's obviously gonna be more epic." i.e, a solar "forgets his own strength" during red rage of compassion or can simply handle more alcohol/drugs/sex with his resistance charms. For flaws that are in line with their virtues, they are simply using their immense power to do what they believe is right after ignoring it for so long. It is really hard for someone to see that the limit breaks of a being with so much power are more than "someone doing what mortals do, only with the power of gods." Just to reiterate, you need to realise that, even without their epic powers, the binges of solars are even more extreme. This is possible, but what is an easier conclusion to come to is that it is inconvient for solars to be flawed full stop.


The human flaws of solars are getting in the way, this is pretty obvious. The supernatural part of the flaw remains unknown, it doesn;t seem more extreme. "We have the power to rule, but not the perfection required." Anyone investigating would know that the shard was designed to infuse people with perfection. However, they know that the shells(people) they are in are imperfect. It is fair to assume that the shard was designed without taking this into account, so it could very well amplify the shell's imperfections as well as the rest of its personality, abilities, etc. Hence the more extreme flaws seem to be explained by the lack of a "do not amplify these parts" line of programming in the shard. Or, if looking to remove flaws for simple inconvience, the lack of any programming with regards to the human flaws of the host.


Now we lead to a senario where the curse can be stumbled upon. Whether the conclusion that the flaws are more extreme, or that the flaws are inconvient the next step is the same: fiddle with the shard. Even finding a way to study the shard in detail is an epic undertaking, let alone discovering the curse within. As in my previous post about heliocentricity and the fact that great thinkers need proof that theories are incorrect, a great mind can only see what others cannot when provided with the right evidence. Another epic quest to understand the make up of the shard would lead to a serendipitous discovery that there is a curse in the shard.


And thus begins the epic saga of removing the curse.

 

[Charon]

Thing is, the designers say:
Safim is right, Kremlin is wrong.


Your storyteller says: Safim is right, Kremlin is wrong.


About half a dozen other people in this thread said, I am right, you are wrong.

I'm not 100% sure what you say he is wrong about, but it can't be about his interpretation of Temperance and Overindulgence.


P.103 Characters must fail in a temperance roll to overindulge in food or intoxicants.


p.105 Overindulgence flaw : The character surrenders to all form of debauch.  


It doesn't get any more clear cut than that.  A character with overindulgence flaw, by definition with temperance 3+, rarely if ever overindulge because he'd need to blow lots of willpower points just to do that.  Then the limit break twist his virtue and force him to act like a bigger pig than a temperance 1 lout.  Quite startling.


---


Ned, interesting analysis.


I'd point out though that the "imperfect vessel" theory implies the Gods made a mistake in the design of the shard though.  It means Autochtnia and the Incarna set loose time bomb into the world because they couldn't work out all the aspect of the problem.  Counter-arguments could be offered but still that assumption would be challenged early in the thought process and could nudge some researchers toward the correct solution faster than you suggest.

 

[Persell]

Considering the first, I really don't give a damn anymore.  I have characters in my campaign that suspect something is wrong with them due to the curse forcing them to do things they profondly regret and fearing that there will be more of it in the future despite their best effort to avoid it.

Because they never did anything they profoundly regret as a mortal?


See, that's the thing about Limit Breaks - they give Exalted flaws, and that's important in an RPG because it keeps players from being "perfect."


In this one D&D game I played in, one of our players played a Warlock and in one of the games he was introduced to his mother who was then killed.  The player's response to this was "So?"  He just didn't care, and the reason why is because that particular player always likes to be in charge and doesn't like anything to be used against him.  In a game where you play a being as powerful as an Exalted, it's important that they have some sort of downfall to counter all the power they get.  They need a Great Curse or else they will find ways where nothing can be used against them, and because a game is based around conflict, that's incredibly important, especially with regards to roleplaying.


Another thing about the Great Curse - it only manifests when a Solar doesn't act like a hero.  Take the Valor virtues, for instance - a Solar only gets limit when they don't act bravely, and there's no reason why an Exalted with high Valor shouldn't act bravely, especially since increasing it also increases their Essence mote pool.  I think the best Virtue for this is Compassion - if someone has a high Compassion the Great Curse forces them to act compassionate and if they don't they suffer from it.


That's why I generally think that games revolving around removing the Great Curse are a bad idea.  The Great Curse doesn't force Solars to do bad things - it forces the Solars to do bad things if they don't do the right thing by their Virtue scores often enough.  That's why it's such a great thing, and full of irony.  The Malfeans basically said, "All right, Celestials.  You want heroes to fight your war for you?  Fine.  They'll be heroes, and if they won't be, Creation will suffer for it."


When it comes to detecting the Great Curse, you forgetting one thing - all of the Exalted are, effectively, insane.  A compulsive liar finds it difficult not to lie.  A compulsive gambler finds it difficult not to gamble.  A nymphomaniac finds it difficult not to have sex.  Someone with anger issues finds it difficult not to get angry.  And when they do, most of the time they don't say it's because there's a curse on them, something wrong with their souls.  In fact, they don't think there's anything wrong with them at all - they rationalize it and feel totally justified in what they did.  They don't feel bad about it - they feel fine.


And those few who do feel bad about it, I think them making the leap of being cursed is a leap.  Look at all the bad shit mortals do.  Mortals lie.  Mortals cheat.  Mortals steal.  Mortals kill.  By that rationale, mortals are cursed just as much as Exalted are.  That's why they would never make that leap.


Now, an Exalted may realize that the bad things he does are more catastrophic, but that's only because of the immense power he has an Exalted.  That wouldn't make him to the leap that he's cursed either - that would only make him leap that he needs to be more careful with his power.


You're asking us to find ways around the Great Curse, but the thing is the Great Curse doesn't have any ways around it.  It is a Gordian Knot that cannot be cut.  That's not our fault - that's the way it was designed.  So if you're determined to write a game in which the goal is to find out about the Great Curse and cure it and there isn't one, that's not our fault either.


My suggestion to you is to either write a game in which the Solars suspect that there is a Great Curse, explore it, but discover that nothing can be done about it or write a different type of game.  Both are quite epic, which is what you say that you want from your game.


In the former, it would have to be a character exploration, heavily on the roleplay.  The characters go on their adventures and, should they limit break, they get called on it by others.  But who would call them on it?  Sidereals who seek to control and manipulate them, and if the Solars know this, not listen to them?  Lunars who see the evil they do but blame it not on any type of curse but on the decadence of civilization?  Dragon-Blooded who are lessers to the Solars and haven't improved Creation and are caught up in their own feuds with each other?  Abyssals, who are servants of the Malfeans and gave up their own souls for powers and perform deeds even more wicked on behalf of them than the Solars do because of their limit break?  Gods who suffered at the abuse of the Solars, who would keep them in check and deny them the luxuries they've enjoyed since the Usurpation?  A lowly mortal who may resent the Exalted for their power?  Another Solar who is just as screwed up as they are and could be seen as a hypocrite?  Why would the Solars listen to any of them?  Why would any of these guys tell the Solars?  Especially since the Great Curse forces Exalted to be heroes or else.  It just doesn't make sense if you really think about it.


As for an epic game, there are TONS of storylines you can do that are just as epic.  There's the battle for the Imperial Throne, the battle with the Autochthonians, taking sides between the Bronze and Gold factions, the Scarlet Empire versus the Threshold, Thorns versus Creation, the Bull of the North's army marching against the north and east, Ma-Ha-Suchi wanting to destroy all civilizations, the Yozis trying to escape their prison, the Abyssals trying to plunge Creation into oblivion, how the Underworld works with or rebels against the Deathlords, the spirit courts seeking their own temporal power instead of doing their duties, the Lintha pirates...  The list goes on and on about all the epic storylines that can be told that have nothing to do with the Great Curse.


All that glitters is not gold, so even though you're tempted to go for the gold with a Great Curse storyline, I don't suggest it.  I don't think it needs to be done.  And I think many other different plotlines can be just as fun for a game.


But if you're determined to make a game about, it doesn't matter what we say.  We've told you how difficult it is to find the Great Curse, but if you want there to be a way for it to be found in your game, just come up with one.  You don't really need our help with that.

Stuff about figuring out the shard is imperfect and thus the Solars can go on a mission to make the shard perfect by taking out the Curse.

This won't work.  It won't work because let's say they do take the Great Curse off.  However, this just means that Solars do evil things of their own free will.  This means that, should they perfect the shard, the mortals they inhabit are not perfect.  They can still do vile things of their own choice or because of predilictions that have nothing to do with the Great Curse.  Thus, those Solars would be led to the conclusion that their attempts at perfection failed and so they must continue their quest, thinking that the Great Curse is still on the shards even when they're not.  Thus, while before there was no way they could find out about the Great Curse, if it should be lifted, there's no way of proving that the Great Curse isn't still in effect because of the acts of evil Solars.

 

[Flagg]

Another thing about the Great Curse - it only manifests when a Solar doesn't act like a hero.  Take the Valor virtues, for instance - a Solar only gets limit when they don't act bravely

Untrue. I am playing a Dawn caste character currently who has the Foolhardy Contempt flaw. He gains Limit whenever he's outmatched in a fight, is challenged by an opponent, or whenever he has an opportunity to showcase his bravery.


He gains Limit FOR being brave.

 

[The zombie cat]

Thing is, the designers say:
Safim is right, Kremlin is wrong.


Your storyteller says: Safim is right, Kremlin is wrong.


About half a dozen other people in this thread said, I am right, you are wrong.


Just suck it up already. You cannot lameass your way into knowing about the curse. What you try to do is not epic but boring and lame and that is why it does not work that way in exalted. End of story.

That is a blatant miss use of my post.


I never said you where right. I said that kremlin was taking the conclusion that something was wrong after only one limit break that was not strongly out of character (his justification was his thought processes at the time where out of character. I would dispute the ability to notice that at the best of times, and defiantly dispute it under the influence of the great curse).


Your saying that it couldn’t be noticed that something is wrong from the out of character actions even with the most obvious limit breaks.


I say that threw repeated observation of limit breaks that include out of character behavior (but probably not thought process, the great curse clouds minds during limit break) it is possible to recognize that there is something wrong more than normal. If observed in multiple solars it is possible to infer that the problem is common to all solars.


Edward

 

[Alabaster Anathema]

Im going to have to agree with flagg here


i was under the assumption that for solars at least


the more of a hero you were the more you freaked out and went crazy and ate to much cake or blew up some peasants


because i mean logically the higher your virtue the more your going to gain limit under said virtue  do to commitment to a certain way of acting

 

[Kremlin KOA]

Alohahaha


You need to reread the text


1: Exalted 2nd Ed Core page 103 "However, these flaws are the result of an ancient and terrible curse, so they are never pleasent or useful."


so no, they are not useful to keep the solars good


Also, look at the sample flaws


Compassionate Martyrdom: The Trigger? You witness Innocents suffering through no fault of their own... regardless of if it is your fault, or whether you put a stop to it, you get limit.


Heart of tears: The trigger? you witness innocents suffering and are unable to ameliorate their pain.. this one is not if you are unheroic, but if you are not powerful enough to succeed.


Red Rage: Trigger? You witness innocents suffering and are unable to effectively intervene. Once again, not a question of heroism, but one of power.


Deliberate cruelty: Trigger? Severe stress or being backed against a wall... quite frankly if there is no stress in your life then you are not heroic. and Back against the wall with sword in hand is the true place of a hero.


Heart of Flint: Trigger? when those around you act childishly enouhg to frustrate you. Consider how much more common this becomes as you age.


Ascetic Drive: well this one you could almost claim the trigger is not being heroic...as it is your own inadequacies here.. i will grant this one


Contempt of the virtuous:Trigger? Other peoples' unheroicness makes your life harder.


Overindulgence: Trigger? doing the heroic thing and choosing duty over temptation.


Beserk Anger: Trigger? Somebody insults you, puts you down, or gets in your way deliberately. REGARDLESS TO HOW YOU RESPOND to this event, you gain limit.


Foolhardy Contempt: Trigger? anytime you get a chance to prove your bravery, such as anyone challenging you to single combat, or fighting against losing odds. Even if you live up to your valor and succeed


out of the sample limit breaks, only 1 of them could possibly be caused by being unheroic


of the others, you are damned either way.


-------


And to Safim


as the others pointed out, according to Canon I am correct, and as to the Zombie Kat bit, his dispute was i should not be able to work it out YET! Which is fair enuff, not that i can never work it out.


also consider pages 199 and 200 of Exalted Core rules 2nd Edition. Read the 'Stubborn Boar Defense' charm and ask yourself 'If no solars knew about limit break, how did they make a charm based on it?'

 

[memesis]

I have got to say.. nothing stirs up more debate than something which hampers a player's ability to do what he likes

 

[tjcoonrod]

Interesting food for thought here.


Pesonally, I like the great curse just fine the way it is, it makes for some damned fine rp'ing fodder. But if somebody else wants to get rid of it in their game, hey, more power to them!

 

[Charon]

You're misinterpreting the intent here, tj,


If my PCs succeed in lifting the curse, the campaign will be pretty much over and then we'll play Scion.


It's hardly about lifting a restriction on the players, it's the end game.  

 

[Flyck]

I have to agree with Charon.  To learn about the curse, is to give ammunition in removing the curse.  Removing the curse, effectively removes a fundamental aspect of a hero, and makes not only for very 2-dimensional characters, but also effectively ends the game.  Not to say Scion is necessarily a 2-dimensional game...  I honestly haven't picked the book up yet or really read into it (but I know some of the basics).  Of course, all IMHO.

 

[memesis]

Actually, curing the Great Curse could lead to other things....


Chejop Kejak approaches the Solars who finally broke the back of the Primordials' dying curse, an ashen look on his face.  "Eight million wrongs have been committed," he breathes.  "We have documented.. some of them.  In our misplaced hubris, we have ignored dangers great and small."  And so the Exalted move to right wrongs wherever they find them...


The end of the Great Curse requires the death of every holder of a Celestial spark, and no new Celestials will Exalt for a full century to let the cure take hold.  Mindful as always, even in their fallen state, the Sidereals exhort the Solars who discovered the cure to do one last thing: "reunite the Realm to face the challenges ahead of it."  With this done, the Solars breathe their last breath, and a new and untested Brotherhood of Dragon-Blooded step upon the stage of Creation, to face the darkness ahead without the support of their hidden patrons...


etc.


Pick the plot that interests you, or devise a new one.

 

[Kremlin KOA]

the end of the great curse would reawaken the eyes of Creation


the dragon blooded the least, they may not even understand what just happened


The Lunars may mourn their loss of their connection to Luna until someone explains it to them


The Solars will feel like a wieght is lifted off them, lthough most wil not understand what it means... the Twilights will have to explain it


The sidereals... wel their reactions will be varied. Some will retreat into denial, others will reverse everything they believe in. Some will become suicidal


If anything, the removal fo the great curse will cause turmloil and strife in the short term

 

[Charon]

 Not to say Scion is necessarily a 2-dimensional game...  I honestly haven't picked the book up yet or really read into it (but I know some of the basics).  Of course, all IMHO.

err... I wasn't saying Scion is Exalted without the Great Curse.  I'd really like to play Scion as my next campaign!  Looks fun.