[Emperors of the Fading Suns] [Emperors of the Fading Suns] OOC Thread

[Arynne]

Eh, redemption through love is a thing in this setting. A thing with mechanics.


If your Lunar mate loves you enough to put that much work into it, and smart enough (unlike poor HAM) to know what to do...well, the Neverborn don't really get love, y'know? Anymore than they get human beings. Most Primordials don't. Except Gaia and Autocthon, and look which side they ended up on.


For that matter, they don't understand gods very well either. Cytherea never thought Luna, who she had created to be a sex toy for Gaia, would have a heart capable of loving her. She never thought Gaia would love Luna back. And they all thought the Unconquered Sun could be broken by torture or seduced by bribes when he was their captive, failing to understand what they themselves had created but no longer owned.


It makes sense that what they don't understand would be the flaw that undoes their work, again and again.

 

[Kacie]

. she already has the Bloom + being caught in an armor all the time (I don't wanna know what or how she eats and drinks)

Good questions!


Answer: She doesn't. Abyssal Resistance charms can obviate the need for eating and sleeping. And breathing, but Mirror doesn't have that one. Yet.


It's not exactly fun, but it's more fun than the Bloom!


There are holes in the CoD negating charms, of course, but that's fuel for good drama. Fangs taking the Resonance onto herself is more of a deterrent than Mirror gaining it herself, for example.

 

[xarvh]

And they all thought the Unconquered Sun could be broken by torture or seduced by bribes when he was their captive, failing to understand what they themselves had created but no longer owned.

Where is this? =)

 

[CrazyIvan]

What I meant was I didn't even know it was possible to take the CoD brand off through powers.
And from what I've gathered from a quick look at the books, making people CoD is neither essence 4 nor lunar.


Considering what you've been through with this character already, catching that kind of breaks couldn't hurt, and you are not in a position to take it yourself, so I'm not challenging the pertinence of its presence in Mirror/Fangs' story.


I was just taken aback by the implications on the system.

Scathing Lunar Condemnation is Essence 4, Cha 4 with roughly the same number of prerequisite charms, and is essentially "GTFO of Creation".


And honestly, this isn't analogous to making someone a CoD. It's temporarily vouching for them. "It's cool, he's with me" doesn't mean you will now forever and all time get into the cool nightclubs. It is at best a cheap Defend Other perfect defense against Holy keyword charms. And when was the last time someone used a Holy keyword charm in this game?

Very, very few CoD can afford a sympathetic Lunar Mate.
As far as we know, that's Mirror and possibly the Widow, and I don't see Hard as Mountains anywhere near to get the necessary Charms or even having a solid understanding of what a CoD is.

CoD + Sympathetic Mate + Charisma 4/Essence 4 has got to be a pretty narrow window.

I'm okay with taking the CoD sticker glued on Mirror's helmet off... she already has the Bloom + being caught in an armor all the time (I don't wanna know what or how she eats and drinks) + the Resonance... the gal could use the free pass.


Again, just talking purely mechanics here...

The mechanics really aren't that earthshaking. And technically, Fangs has also taken care of Resonance. Come...very soon, the stigmata she generates will be a minor mechanical annoyance.


And like I said, this gives Fangs ideas about the Bloom as well. That scheme will be a much more expensive charm.

Eh, redemption through love is a thing in this setting. A thing with mechanics.
If your Lunar mate loves you enough to put that much work into it, and smart enough (unlike poor HAM) to know what to do...well, the Neverborn don't really get love, y'know? Anymore than they get human beings. Most Primordials don't. Except Gaia and Autocthon, and look which side they ended up on.


For that matter, they don't understand gods very well either. Cytherea never thought Luna, who she had created to be a sex toy for Gaia, would have a heart capable of loving her. She never thought Gaia would love Luna back. And they all thought the Unconquered Sun could be broken by torture or seduced by bribes when he was their captive, failing to understand what they themselves had created but no longer owned.


It makes sense that what they don't understand would be the flaw that undoes their work, again and again.

All of this. Redemption through love - and it's corrupted forms (hey Scarlet Empress...) are a fairly big theme. And beyond that, the bigger theme of Exalted is "They did what!?". 'Screw your rules, she's my mate' is exactly the kind of thing Exalts were designed to do.

There are holes in the CoD negating charms, of course, but that's fuel for good drama. Fangs taking the Resonance onto herself is more of a deterrent than Mirror gaining it herself, for example.

This. It's a thematic player empowerment charm that just happens to not be so disastrously bad as to never be worth taking.

 

[Arynne]

Where is this? =)

Glories of the Most High: The Unconquered Sun, page 5.


They did know Conky well enough to know he'd give himself up to save the life of even a single hostage. They didn't know that he wasn't stupid, and his choice was quite cleverly made...

 

[cyl]

Scathing Lunar Condemnation is Essence 4, Cha 4 with roughly the same number of prerequisite charms, and is essentially "GTFO of Creation".


And honestly, this isn't analogous to making someone a CoD. It's temporarily vouching for them. "It's cool, he's with me" doesn't mean you will now forever and all time get into the cool nightclubs. It is at best a cheap Defend Other perfect defense against Holy keyword charms. And when was the last time someone used a Holy keyword charm in this game?

It is also a permanent (re: the duration of the charm) invisibility on all who have a CoD detection capability... and that is no small advantage.
As for Holy stuff, we've been talking with Feantari about gathering masters of the Golden Janissary Style for his dojo, and since I'm switching to Melee and considering the frequency and nature of the interactions we're having with the undead, I damn well intend to pick up Blazing Solar Bolt and stuff like that.


I don't plan on turning Malek against Mirror, obviously, but I did have some concerns regarding the applications of this charm for the dozen abies that could be mated to a crazy-stupid lunar willing to protect them out of Solar-Bond compelled feelings, despite their destructive nature.

The mechanics really aren't that earthshaking. And technically, Fangs has also taken care of Resonance. Come...very soon, the stigmata she generates will be a minor mechanical annoyance.
And like I said, this gives Fangs ideas about the Bloom as well. That scheme will be a much more expensive charm.

Invisibility on CoD radar + voiding the effects of Holy charms... permanently... I wouldn't exactly call that earthshaking, but those are some disproportionate ripples IMHO.

All of this. Redemption through love - and it's corrupted forms (hey Scarlet Empress...) are a fairly big theme. And beyond that, the bigger theme of Exalted is "They did what!?". 'Screw your rules, she's my mate' is exactly the kind of thing Exalts were designed to do.
This. It's a thematic player empowerment charm that just happens to not be so disastrously bad as to never be worth taking.

The theme is just fine. Although I must say if Fangs does all the heavy lifting and Mirror gets redemption, I'll feel like she would have gotten off easy.


The mechanics however, not so much in my book. If its presence in the game is limited to Mirror, I don't see it becoming a problem. But it could have been if for some reason it was being used on other tainted solars (including GSPs) by other lunars also eager to protect their long gone mates (both abies & GSPs were mostly in the Jade Prison for centuries).

 

[xarvh]

I don't plan on turning Malek against Mirror, obviously, but I did have some concerns regarding the applications of this charm for the dozen abies that could be mated to a crazy-stupid lunar willing to protect them out of Solar-Bond compelled feelings, despite their destructive nature.

I don't plan to have NPCs with that, if it is what worries you.

The theme is just fine. Although I must say if Fangs does all the heavy lifting and Mirror gets redemption, I'll feel like she would have gotten off easy.

Do you think that Mirror had it easy so far?


IIRC, "easy" is not a problem of this game.

 

[cyl]

I don't plan to have NPCs with that, if it is what worries you.

I wasn't really worried, you've been doing a damn fine job as a ST over the past years so I don't particularly fear that kind of abuses from you.


I was commenting the mechanics of the charm while taking it out of its particular context.

Do you think that Mirror had it easy so far?
IIRC, "easy" is not a problem of this game.

You don't say, mutilation, torture, immolation, toxic mushroom, hitting a primordial and making one of the largest city known to man fall... heh so far I think Flicker Rhapsody and Siham are the least scarred by the story.
Well... Flicker already has Malek... no need to throw more at her I'd say

 

[CrazyIvan]

It is also a permanent (re: the duration of the charm) invisibility on all who have a CoD detection capability... and that is no small advantage.
As for Holy stuff, we've been talking with Feantari about gathering masters of the Golden Janissary Style for his dojo, and since I'm switching to Melee and considering the frequency and nature of the interactions we're having with the undead, I damn well intend to pick up Blazing Solar Bolt and stuff like that.

"Permanent" except it also needs a commitment of Essence and can be absconded with by a clever pickpocket.

I don't plan on turning Malek against Mirror, obviously, but I did have some concerns regarding the applications of this charm for the dozen abies that could be mated to a crazy-stupid lunar willing to protect them out of Solar-Bond compelled feelings, despite their destructive nature.

A CoD with a insanely protective mate should be a scary concept within the game. Almost all of the Lunar mate charms are "Make my Solar better/help their agenda" charms.

Invisibility on CoD radar + voiding the effects of Holy charms... permanently... I wouldn't exactly call that earthshaking, but those are some disproportionate ripples IMHO.

Again, utterly ignoring that it can be easily stripped away, Fangs is down 5 motes if she wants to leave Mirror's side, that it's an expensive charm to acquire...


...and that these charms were proposed over a month ago.

The theme is just fine. Although I must say if Fangs does all the heavy lifting and Mirror gets redemption, I'll feel like she would have gotten off easy.

First of all, one way to summarize Fangs' plot arc is 'Fangs does all the heavy lifting'. Because her entire narrative is doing what needs to be done because another can't. For that matter, as noted, Mirror hasn't exactly 'gotten off easy'.

The mechanics however, not so much in my book. If its presence in the game is limited to Mirror, I don't see it becoming a problem. But it could have been if for some reason it was being used on other tainted solars (including GSPs) by other lunars also eager to protect their long gone mates (both abies & GSPs were mostly in the Jade Prison for centuries).

There is vastly more power in the very concept of a Lunar wanting to defend a tainted Solar than there ever will be in a set of three charms.

 

[Kacie]

There is no narrative drama nor epic story in an easy Redemption.


Cyl, if think either CrazyIvan or I are interested in said easy Redemption, then you have misunderstood what we want out of the game.


Besides. This set of charms requires the CoD mate to hurt their lunar mate in order to pursue Redemption. That's a paradox at best, and if one were to hang all justifications on Redemption for being able to be "good" while blithely having one's mate in agony - then the whole point of Redemption has been missed.

 

[Arynne]

On a lighter note, are Didee's priests dressed like this?

 

[CrazyIvan]

being able to be "good" while blithely having one's mate in agony

Solars Gonna Solar?

On a lighter note, are Didee's priests dressed like this?

We can only hope.

 

[xarvh]

@Kacie: Mirror is exceptionally caring of her Lunar Mate; I'm letting you do it because it's your character and your drama and it doesn't cause me problems, but by canon the Bond is entirely one-way: the Lunar is bound to the Solar, and the Solar has no supernatural bond whatsoever with the Lunar.


Solars in general don't give a shit (don't have to, at least), while Lunars have a beaten wife complex.


In the First Age, ignoring the pleas of their Lunar mates (when not torturing them outright) was very common for Solars.


Just to make it clear, this is canon and I care only up to a point, I have no problem with how you are playing Mirror.


@Arynne: yes.

 

[CrazyIvan]

Stick 'im Flicker!

 

[Kacie]

@Kacie: Mirror is exceptionally caring of her Lunar Mate; I'm letting you do it because it's your character and your drama and it doesn't cause me problems, but by canon the Bond is entirely one-way: the Lunar is bound to the Solar, and the Solar has no supernatural bond whatsoever with the Lunar.
Solars in general don't give a shit (don't have to, at least), while Lunars have a beaten wife complex.


In the First Age, ignoring the pleas of their Lunar mates (when not torturing them outright) was very common for Solars.


Just to make it clear, this is canon and I care only up to a point, I have no problem with how you are playing Mirror.

My point was that I didn't think Fangs's set of charms would make for an auto-easy Redemption for any Abyssal, unless Redemption means "act like a Solar" instead of "be an honestly good person".


You don't need a supernatural bond to care about someone else, or think that it's morally reprehensible for someone else to pay the price for your actions.


I can't tell if we're on the same page or not anymore, so I will PM you on the subject of what Redemption is in your eyes.


I guess I will have to wait to make snide remarks until the duel is over - there wasn't much opening to tell off that DK.

 

[xarvh]

@Kacie: No need for PMs, we're definitely on the same page.

 

[CrazyIvan]

My point was that I didn't think Fangs's set of charms would make for an auto-easy Redemption for any Abyssal, unless Redemption means "act like a Solar" instead of "be an honestly good person".
You don't need a supernatural bond to care about someone else, or think that it's morally reprehensible for someone else to pay the price for your actions.

With very rare exception (and I admit to taking dramatic license with this as well) almost everything Mirror feels towards Fangs can be explained by a decent human being realizing they've got someone very, very vulnerable under their thumb.


At most, the charms Fangs is using enable "Fake it until you make it" as a valid strategy, at the cost of the occasional lethal wound inflicted on a third party. Which has amusing issues - like Fangs being okay with it, but Mirror not being okay with it - or possibly, not okay with Fangs being okay with it.

 

[cyl]

With very rare exception (and I admit to taking dramatic license with this as well) almost everything Mirror feels towards Fangs can be explained by a decent human being realizing they've got someone very, very vulnerable under their thumb.

I'd argue that compassion 2 individuals aren't decent human beings as they do not feel compelled to help others (meaning they lack the necessary empathy or they can simply ignore what that part of their brain tells them to do), but Mirror does have one very charged intimacy towards her mate.

 

[JayTee]

You have no idea how hard it is to make up realistic sounding nonsense about architecture in a fantasy setting when you only know the very basic fundaments about actual architecture.

 

[Kacie]

2 is the average for mortals in virtues.


You've been suggesting things for compassion 2 Malek that would be more like Compassion 1 (or Conviction 4+) - such as killing your mate in her sleep. That's not something a normal person can do.

 

[cyl]

That was the Elder, Malek would never kill Flicker intentionnally.


To me, the distinction between 1-2 and 3 is simple for an exalt: you can't ignore your virtue.


When one of the conditions apply (such as ignoring the pleas of innocents suffering or an enemy brought to his knees begging for his life), there is not even the slightest obstacle to the exercise of free will for the character with compassion 2.


He can be selfish or generous, but it's completely up to him.


When you have Compassion 3, it takes a significant effort to ignore what your core values compel you to do (spending wp not unlike resisting a N/UMI).

 

[xarvh]

I think you have both a point.


With 5 point to spread, Compassion will be 2 on average.


And yes, at compassion 2 you will generally care but you can easily look the other way if you need to, which kind of fits what most of humanity does.


Dunno.


I feel virtues are underplayed in Exalted.

 

[cyl]

And yes, at compassion 2 you will generally care but you can easily look the other way if you need to, which kind of fits what most of humanity does.

This is compassion 3 to me.
At 2 you are free to care only for the ones closest to you or for whom you have an interest... but most of the times those feelings come from selfish desires.


At 1 you're basically a sociopath, and you rarely care about anyone else.

 

[Arynne]

OK, the Castle's down so I'll use the on-site roller...which, swear to gods, I hate so much... :mad:


Query: how does Relentless Lunar Fury work exactly? Do you spent 1m per Fury Charm, or the full cost of the Charm, or something in between (as the description seems to suggest)?

 

[CrazyIvan]

As I read it:


You pay 1m, 1 WP to activate Relentless Lunar Fury, the charm. You then add two motes per Fury-OK charm you want to come along at the same time. Basically, it's a cheap combo activator.


So, for example, RLF + Might-Bolstering Blow + Impressions of Strength = 5m, 1 WP