[Emperors of the Fading Suns] [Emperors of the Fading Suns] OOC Thread

[Arynne]

Flicker understands, which is why she prefers a straight-up duel to the death and doing unto the Dragon King leaders what they did unto Walker. Her main concern is that revenge falls on the responsible parties and not indiscriminately on everyone within range. While death is normally only a temporary setback for DKs, the fragile state of Dragon King society in the Age of Sorrows means she doesn't want to wipe out an entire sentient community...and death is final for the DKs' human subjects, so she doesn't want them to become targets either.

 

[CrazyIvan]

Flicker understands, which is why she prefers a straight-up duel to the death and doing unto the Dragon King leaders what they did unto Walker. Her main concern is that revenge falls on the responsible parties and not indiscriminately on everyone within range. While death is normally only a temporary setback for DKs, the fragile state of Dragon King society in the Age of Sorrows means she doesn't want to wipe out an entire sentient community...and death is final for the DKs' human subjects, so she doesn't want them to become targets either.

Which is why Flicker is awesome, and why if it comes to it, the Demons will have very clear instructions.

 

[cyl]

The parallel between Ankss & Sanctuary is interesting.


In both cases the problem is the leader. Take him / her out of the equation and then you have a community of misguided powerful beings that could be rallied to Cross.


What if Malek takes Fangs to the Elder's chambers and she kills him (slowly if she wants to, but discretely) and we go on with the rest of option C ?


It gives Fangs at least some of the blood she wants, Mirror gets her turf and her stuff back, Rhapsody does what she does best, and Flicker & Malek get DK and we are spared the complexities of antagonizing a powerful dominion, a refusal of our terms which would only lead to a war that would cost us resources,would undoubtedly and uselessly focus our attention for a while and also probably compromise an alliance with Two Worlds, or the loss of another friend (if the guy who steps up loses the fight vs the elder, he's toast).

 

[CrazyIvan]

The parallel between Ankss & Sanctuary is interesting.
In both cases the problem is the leader. Take him / her out of the equation and then you have a community of misguided powerful beings that could be rallied to Cross.


What if Malek takes Fangs to the Elder's chambers and she kills him (slowly if she wants to, but discretely) and we go on with the rest of option C ?


It gives Fangs at least some of the blood she wants, Mirror gets her turf and her stuff back, Rhapsody does what she does best, and Flicker & Malek get DK and we are spared the complexities of antagonizing a powerful dominion, a refusal of our terms which would only lead to a war that would cost us resources,would undoubtedly and uselessly focus our attention for a while and also probably compromise an alliance with Two Worlds, or the loss of another friend (if the guy who steps up loses the fight vs the elder, he's toast).

Fangs would prefer Flicker's solution to work because, when it comes down to it, when have you seen "Fangs" and "Discrete" occur in the same sentence?

 

[Kacie]

Flicker's way is cooler and reaffirms her story, her place as the lunar who cares about the culture of the DKs.

 

[CrazyIvan]

This does, however, remind me that Fangs really ought to go visit Tirana.

 

[cyl]

The duel means more efforts and more risks for everyone, including the DK culture.

 

[CrazyIvan]

The duel means more efforts and more risks for everyone, including the DK culture.

Than what? Having Rhapsody mind-bend them into compliance? Or Fangs torching everything but the young and the human?

 

[cyl]

Respecting the solars was part of their culture. Rhapsody would be restoring what the elder corrupted. Whatever path arynne chooses, we will need her.

 

[CrazyIvan]

Respecting the solars was part of their culture. Rhapsody would be restoring what the elder corrupted. Whatever path arynne chooses, we will need her.

Some thoughts:


1. "Respecting Solars" is a wide and varied concept, and our descriptions of it are from Flicker's mentors and old memories. You can't guarantee it's a restoration any more than "I put your arms and your legs back onto your torso" means everything is in the right place. It is in the general vicinity of right, but you're making a pretty big assumption that Rhapsody can glue everything back the way it was.


Solar social combat is particularly bad at fine scale manipulation.


2. You're assuming restoration is desirable. There is no room in a First Age world view for a Deathknight, because they simply didn't exist. So this doesn't solve the whole cutting off Fangs' mate's head problem. Indeed, putting them back the way they were could very well make them more hostile to a Creature of Darkness. Beyond that, there are aspects of Dragon King culture that several members of the Circle don't necessarily agree need to be preserved. See: Sacrifices to the big guy upstairs. Importantly, several of these members of the Circle are also the people with actual grievances against Ankss.


3. You're assuming seeing their leader fall in a challenge won't adequately address the "Respect the Solars" bit.


4. Beyond the question of preserving Dragon King culture and it's relative merits, plunking down Rhapsody as the duelist has two additional issues:

• It lacks context. There's a reason for Flicker, Mirror or Fangs to be the one doing it. Rhapsody has no reason to be the one we choose, beyond in-game min-maxing, and it's a transparent enough attempt at that for the Elders to see it as such.
  
• It pits a non-combat character in lethal combat.
  

Mainly, this seems to be assuming "Best Case" for your plan, and "Worst Case" for all others. Rhapsody would be working without a net, if nothing else.

 

[CrazyIvan]

Random rules question, because I have a headache and am at work: Can natural weapons use Melee?

 

[cyl]

1. I don't mean for Rhapsody to put the DK back a few thousands years ago. Respecting the Solars is something we can and probably should enforce, the rest will follow naturally while working with them.


It is part of the couple's legacy.


2. same idea, not talking about restoring a culture where humans are cattle, just putting the Solars back where they belonged, high in the protocole.


Also, the DK had contact with the Widow for a while, and they didn't kill her (although she probably did something to set them off, we still don't know why)... they killed Walker because he did something anyone would kill over.


3. The Elder wasn't the only one to call us trouble during our introduction in Ankss. Even if he falls, other may follow in his path... the only way I find around this particular problem is substitution.


4. I thought of an option D: Malek poses as another DK and challenges the Elder. Fits story wise, and we can probably please Fangs bringing her the one who killed Walker.


Malek wins (well let's assume a young solar with a CMA can actually beat a DK Elder), continues to pose as the new leader and introduces changes swiftly.


Rhapsody has 6 resistance charms, a perfect soak and 5 snake style charms... I wouldn't exactly call her non combat, but I never meant for her to go alone anyway.


In the IC post, I clearly stated that she would need back up and that TW had to be there... the upside to picking her was that she could unleash social charms to ensure peace after victory, and she's practically the only one who can, even though Malek probably could considering he has a few Performance charms as well.

 

[cyl]

Random rules question, because I have a headache and am at work: Can natural weapons use Melee?

Normally no, they must be used only with MA.

 

[CrazyIvan]

1. I don't mean for Rhapsody to put the DK back a few thousands years ago. Respecting the Solars is something we can and probably should enforce, the rest will follow naturally while working with them.
It is part of the couple's legacy.


2. same idea, not talking about restoring a culture where humans are cattle, just putting the Solars back where they belonged, high in the protocole.


Also, the DK had contact with the Widow for a while, and they didn't kill her (although she probably did something to set them off, we still don't know why)... they killed Walker because he did something anyone would kill over.

So Plan Rhapsody is good because it doesn't represent a risk to the DK culture, and Plan Rhapsody is also good because we can play DK culture pick-n-mix.


These are mutually exclusive.

 

[CrazyIvan]

Normally no, they must be used only with MA.

*le sigh* I need to pick up Spirit Sword, or Blood Lash, or Becoming the Wood Friend or something. Fangs is irritatingly bimodal - she's either effectively unarmed, or a 14 foot tall moonsilver killing machine.


Or get Siham on the artifact making path. That could work too.

 

[cyl]

So Plan Rhapsody is good because it doesn't represent a risk to the DK culture, and Plan Rhapsody is also good because we can play DK culture pick-n-mix.
These are mutually exclusive.

Plan Rhapsody has a greater chance at succeeding preserving the DK culture... because if it succeeds there will be DKs afterwards
Plan Flicker has more risks unless Rhapsody's here, ready to unleash social hell when Flicker wins... and if too many exalts are there, we won't get to the duel part, the elder will smell the ambush from a mile away and we'll have to fight or be chased away.


The more I think about it, the more options C & D make more sense tactically.


Both have the same amount of violence and darkness in it to show that Malek is now ready to kill. With option C he can bring a friend along, with option D he's more exposed. I'm not sure Flicker will like the idea of murdering someone in his sleep... on the other hand, it wouldn't really be a first for the heirs of Steel Falcon and Scarlet Silence. At least they could make it quick and painless.


On the other other hand she will prefer that to him exposed as he could be in option D.

 

[cyl]

*le sigh* I need to pick up Spirit Sword, or Blood Lash, or Becoming the Wood Friend or something. Fangs is irritatingly bimodal - she's either effectively unarmed, or a 14 foot tall moonsilver killing machine.
Or get Siham on the artifact making path. That could work too.

Nothing says "you're so screwed" like a Death Badger popping out of nowhere.

 

[CrazyIvan]

Plan Rhapsody has a greater chance at succeeding preserving the DK culture... because if it succeeds there will be DKs afterwards

In fairness, Fangs' plan has DKs afterwards.

She steps back, a smile on her face. "I promised an instructive lesson, and that they would once again remember that the night, and Luna's chosen, are to be feared. Is it a lesson if there is no one left to remember it? Can the dead be thought to truly fear?" The smile turns into a frown, and Cunning Fangs looks at her almost...disappointed.
"Despite your blunted imaginings, the fate of Ankss will be no simple mindless massacre Rhapsody." She turns, the move dismissive. "I take pride in my work."

 

[Kacie]

Cyl, you're forgetting/ignoring/discounting the possibility that the Dragon Kings accept Flicker's challenge, and then respect the terms of the duel. It's a sacred ritual in their culture, and Flicker has traveled to her Sifu to learn it.


There is no ambush or trap - just the terms of the duel, which the parties agree to abide by.


I don't know why you've got it in your head that somehow the DKs respect Flicker less than a solar they've never met.

 

[xarvh]

Love reading you guys plotting.


I like both options of unleashing the demon or killing Zeesalth in his sleep.


But yeah, having Flicker fight is the main option.


I'd avoid Rhapsody fighting for OOC reasons: Wlf can't be present enough and I don't want to puppet a PC for such an important event.


I'm still surprised that the dog gets more compassion than the inn owner, but CI makes a good point.


Hell, you don't even /know/ that Tirana killed Callen, and neither that he trespassed.


Also, Zeesalth is definitely a charismatic leader, but he didn't brainwash the other DKs.


They all brainwashed each other in the centuries, as sheltered and less sheltered groups do.


@cyl: Tirana is much more loved than feared.


Even the son she had executed accepted her command unquestioningly.


Take out Tirana and the Snake and the Tiger will be on your throat, as well as the rest of her children.


@CI: That's a tricky one, but I have no problems with using Melee with natural weapons (the Core vaguely states that M weapons can be used with Melee).

 

[cyl]

In fairness, Fangs' plan has DKs afterwards.

Never said it didn't, was trying to make a joke.


You'll have to give me that leaving the young out of the slaughter ain't exactly better... plus it can pose a diplomatic problem with Two Worlds.

Cyl, you're forgetting/ignoring/discounting the possibility that the Dragon Kings accept Flicker's challenge, and then respect the terms of the duel. It's a sacred ritual in their culture, and Flicker has traveled to her Sifu to learn it.
There is no ambush or trap - just the terms of the duel, which the parties agree to abide by.


I don't know why you've got it in your head that somehow the DKs respect Flicker less than a solar they've never met.

Solars used to be sacred too, now they tell us to go fuck ourselves.


Nothing guarantees they will


1- respect the rite (but we could make sure of that with a bit of infiltration)


2- consent to the terms of the duel, Flicker not really being equipped to negotiate


3- respect the terms of the duel afterwards. As I pointed out, the Elder isn't the only one who was hostile to exalts.


The problem with Plan Flicker is that we have to walk up to them, show them that we have aggressive intentions (kill their leader using their traditions against them), and expect them not to resist.


Flicker can't go alone for her own safety, and the presence of others around Flicker will only make our intentions even murkier for them and make it easy for them to think that this is in fact a set up (which it really is).


With option C & D at least we get a chance to minimize the casualties, and work from within.

 

[CrazyIvan]

I'm still surprised that the dog gets more compassion than the inn owner, but CI makes a good point.


Hell, you don't even /know/ that Tirana killed Callen, and neither that he trespassed.

In fairness, I had forgotten about the inn owner. It was mostly an observation that Fangs is not at all convinced Tirana has done anything wrong with a capital-W. Which means attacking Sanctuary is a war of speculative aggression, wrapped up in a veneer of righteousness to make everyone feel better.


Which, given her thoughts on Solars, leads to interesting places...

@cyl: Tirana is much more loved than feared.
Even the son she had executed accepted her command unquestioningly.


Take out Tirana and the Snake and the Tiger will be on your throat, as well as the rest of her children.

This is, incidentally, why I so like Tirana as an NPC. She's not just another sand castle you can kick over.

@CI: That's a tricky one, but I have no problems with using Melee with natural weapons (the Core vaguely states that M weapons can be used with Melee).

 

[cyl]

Hell, you don't even /know/ that Tirana killed Callen, and neither that he trespassed.

That... is absolutely right. Damn I hate you for bringing that up

Also, Zeesalth is definitely a charismatic leader, but he didn't brainwash the other DKs.
They all brainwashed each other in the centuries, as sheltered and less sheltered groups do.

Which is why I'm suggesting we do the same... infiltration and a little performance / socialize reweaving and voila, everyone's happy.
But that is not absolutely necessary.


The thing I can't get my head around is: why Two Worlds ? They are exalts like us, they just have a different patron...

 

[CrazyIvan]

The problem with Plan Flicker is that we have to walk up to them, show them that we have aggressive intentions (kill their leader using their traditions against them), and expect them not to resist.


Flicker can't go alone for her own safety, and the presence of others around Flicker will only make our intentions even murkier for them and make it easy for them to think that this is in fact a set up (which it really is).

I think using "setup" to describe a mechanism wherein the Dragon King's own rituals are respected by one who is as close to "their own" as it comes, and a ancient and hallowed tradition is used to resolve a conflict with as little bloodshed as possible is...flawed. Especially as it's expressly not a setup. Fangs agreed to let Flicker handle it her way. Fangs keeps her word.


And why would us coming with Flicker be any different than any other duel between aggrieved parties?

 

[CrazyIvan]

everyone's happy.

For some values of everyone.