[Emperors of the Fading Suns] [Emperors of the Fading Suns] OOC Thread

[cyl]

Re: Tirana - oh yeah I love the old giraffe too... I don't even want her dead... I like giraffes.

 

[CrazyIvan]

That... is absolutely right. Damn I hate you for bringing that up

The closest thing we have to proof is, ironically, Fangs knowing that what she's done isn't possible without an outside boost. And IIRC, she never shared that tidbit.

 

[xarvh]

@cyl: you can let CI/Arynne do their way and have Malek infiltrate and ensure the terms are respected.

 

[CrazyIvan]

@cyl: you can let CI/Arynne do their way and have Malek infiltrate and ensure the terms are respected.

That's just crazy talk.

 

[cyl]

I think using "setup" to describe a mechanism wherein the Dragon King's own rituals are respected by one who is as close to "their own" as it comes, and a ancient and hallowed tradition is used to resolve a conflict with as little bloodshed as possible is...flawed. Especially as it's expressly not a setup. Fangs agreed to let Flicker handle it her way. Fangs keeps her word.

Also Flicker & the Elder got off to a really bad start, and it is a setup. For them at least. They have to know that we come for the Elder's head... otherwise we would be challenging the one who butchered the friend we lost, not their leader.


To them it'll be nothing short of a coup... and they can still turn Flicker down or put the one who really did the deed up for the duel... and then what ? We're back to option "Murder Death Kill" ?

And why would us coming with Flicker be any different than any other duel between aggrieved parties?

Because they can interpret that as "they are ready to make a move on us whatever the outcome of the duel". They know exalts are powerful, they already see us as a threat.


Put yourself in their shoes. Someone comes with a whole posse of armed goons to your house and says "hey, the law allows me to challenge you to a duel and if I win I take your house, if you win you take mine"... aren't you going to be a little bit suspicious ?

 

[cyl]

@cyl: you can let CI/Arynne do their way and have Malek infiltrate and ensure the terms are respected.

I'm more concerned about getting Flicker to the dueling part actually... but it seems I'm really giving it too much thought.


If Malek can infiltrate the camp and make sure that Flicker will at least be able to be granted a fair duel without treachery or repercussions, then we can proceed with Plan Flicker... otherwise, I highly recommend option C or D.

 

[xarvh]

I'm more concerned about getting Flicker to the dueling part actually... but it seems I'm really giving it too much thought.

Probably.

If Malek can infiltrate the camp and make sure that Flicker will at least be able to be granted a fair duel without treachery or repercussions, then we can proceed with Plan Flicker... otherwise, I highly recommend option C or D.

That will be up to your skill.

 

[cyl]

Probably.

Now that is crazy talk !

That will be up to your skill.

step 1 - finish spending my xp (the latest version has a heavy focus on Larceny - Investigation - Linguistics)


step 2 - find KO or kill and impersonate a random DK from Ankss


step 3 - investigate


step 4 - report


step 5 - remain in sleeper mode to avoid suspicions until Flicker comes around and intervene if necessary


Step 2 is actually the hardest because we have to make it quick and discrete.

 

[Arynne]

Note that we could use a third party to deliver the challenge -- an elemental, for example -- and as go-between during the negotiations, thus ensuring that neither side has the ability to ambush the other before the actual duel.


And yeah, Flicker assumes she'll be the one doing the fighting. She's a Full Moon, after all.

 

[CrazyIvan]

We're back to option "Murder Death Kill" ?

To borrow a term from IT, all of these plans have the same failover plan: Murder Death Kill. Every one of them.

 

[cyl]

Note that we could use a third party to deliver the challenge -- an elemental, for example -- and as go-between during the negotiations, thus ensuring that neither side has the ability to ambush the other before the actual duel.

Mode paranoia on; what you want to show them our play and give them time to ready a counterattack ?
Mode paranoia off: isn't it a little bit too unpersonalized ?

 

[CrazyIvan]

Because they can interpret that as "they are ready to make a move on us whatever the outcome of the duel". They know exalts are powerful, they already see us as a threat.


Put yourself in their shoes. Someone comes with a whole posse of armed goons to your house and says "hey, the law allows me to challenge you to a duel and if I win I take your house, if you win you take mine"... aren't you going to be a little bit suspicious ?

Except that's not the challenge.


The challenge is "The law allows me to challenge you to a duel, and if I win I take your house. If you win, you keep your house, and I don't lock the door with you inside and set fire to it."


It is clearly a compromise. It also happens to be in line with Fangs' "It's not deception if you're telling the truth". Infiltration plans have more moving parts to frak up.

 

[cyl]

Even better. You see how the presence of the armed goons make that last "I don't lock the door with you inside and set fire to it" part difficult to believe now ?

 

[CrazyIvan]

Even better. You see how the presence of the armed goons make that last "I don't lock the door with you inside and set fire to it" part difficult to believe now ?

The very fact that the armed goons aren't doing the burning that very moment.


We showed up to negotiate. That is it. If Cunning Fangs and Mirror weren't going to abide by the duel, why would they accept it in the first place? Why would they risk Flicker's death, and compromise their tactical position, and announce their intentions.


We aren't stupid. If we weren't playing nice, the first warning they'd have of our intentions would be the sound of a hundred-hundred beauteous wasps descending in the moonlight, and the green fire to follow. The very fact that this hasn't happened is a show of good faith.


And if they're too dumb and stubborn to accept that?


Then we have our answer. It's simple, it's clean, and it's brutally, directly honest.

 

[Arynne]

Someone comes with a whole posse of armed goons to your house and says "hey, the law allows me to challenge you to a duel and if I win I take your house, if you win you take mine"... aren't you going to be a little bit suspicious ?

Except that the fight will be one-on-one, the armed goons are to prevent interference by your armed goons, who outnumber them anyway, and both sides will swear a magically enforced oath (which you know is effective) not to cheat. Also, you've been trespassing in each other's back yards and annoying each other for a while now, so a suggestion of "let's just take it out behind the woodshed and get it over with" won't come out of the blue.

 

[CrazyIvan]

Except that the fight will be one-on-one, the armed goons are to prevent interference by your armed goons, who outnumber them anyway, and both sides will swear a magically enforced oath (which you know is effective) not to cheat. Also, you've been trespassing in each other's back yards and annoying each other for a while now, so a suggestion of "let's just take it out behind the woodshed and get it over with" won't come out of the blue.

Also all of this. Because Arynne is wise.

 

[cyl]

Except Walker died 2 chapters ago (1 year or so ?), they sent us his head and nothing whatsoever happened since.


The bad blood, the distrust, and the hate are surely there, but the frequent annoyance... not so much. It was a one time thing.


Ah well, it's late here and I'm tired of debating the merits of careful approaches for the day and I can't really say I'm really eager to start again tomorrow.


I think I have warned and advised you enough by now.


It's your move, lead and I shall follow.

 

[JayTee]

I still stand by the philosophy of "convert what we can, kill what we can't", but so long as Siham gets himself a 5 dot Manse for a Factory Cathedral, I'm happy.

 

[cyl]

In this specific case we could have avoided a standard application of that rather insensitive philosophy and tried to be subtle since we don't really have the moral high ground here.


The presence of enslaved humans is what can make it morally right in the end, but let's be honest, they wouldn't have been there, it wouldn't have changed a thing: we're making a move on Ankss for blood and power.


Come to think about it, let's think this through: what are going to be the precise terms of the duel ? What do we ask for, and what to we put on the table on our end ?


Can defeating the leader of Ankss really lead to the expulsion of all Dragon Kings in Ankss ?


If it doesn't, what are we going to do about the remaining DKs who will still be hostile to Exalts ?


And if it does, do we really want to set them loose in the world ? (a band of angry expropriated DKs with a grudge on the run ... what could go wrong ? :tongue.

 

[CrazyIvan]

And if it does, do we really want to set them loose in the world ? (a band of angry expropriated DKs with a grudge on the run ... what could go wrong ? :tongue.

Exile was Fangs' initial punishment, once the appropriate amount of terrifying bloodletting had occurred. Let them find out that Creation is a cold and uncaring place, unkind to strangers. She cannot think of a more fitting punishment.

 

[cyl]

And that is precisely why Flicker is in charge.


Exile with or without retaliation will make them hate the Circle and want to find our enemies and ally themselves with them.


Unless they follow the "keep what you kill" way, and Flicker becomes the new ruler, we'll have to deal with them after the Elder has been defeated.


And even if Flicker does rule Ankss, she still has to let Mirror in.

 

[Kacie]

Cyl, the hate is already there. You keep forgetting the Cross has the DK's eggs & hatchlings; the DKs already hate your guts. It's not some one-off thing like you claimed earlier, and we know that because the DKs' map has the Cross in red and they're preaching of how evil the Cross is to the Autocthons.


Your plan to kill and replace the DK leader is very dangerous, because if at any point they disbelieve your disguise, it's instant war. The disguise charms aren't fool-proof; they depend on the solar using them to know every last detail of how the person acts & talks. The more you-in-disguise start to push and change policies that have been in place for centuries, the more likely they are to see through you; they are going to spend WP if they can, no matter the amount. We also don't know if Two Worlds has deception piercing charms, and Two Worlds also gets opportunities to disbelieve because the DK leader has just been telling him how awful the Solars are.


Flicker's ritual challenge is honest, and does that whole "let's get this over with already" - with which I heartily agree.

 

[CrazyIvan]

And that is precisely why Flicker is in charge.
Exile with or without retaliation will make them hate the Circle and want to find our enemies and ally themselves with them.


Unless they follow the "keep what you kill" way, and Flicker becomes the new ruler, we'll have to deal with them after the Elder has been defeated.

You act like this is new information.


They already hate us, and yes, this is a cruel and uncaring fate that will probably make them hate us more. But it was the endgame of a similarly cruel and unkind fate. I'm pretty sure a wounded deer that somehow escapes a hunter hates the hunter too, but it doesn't matter.


So yes, they may hate us. They may even hate us more. The difference is that Fangs' original plan would have left them on the bottom of the "enemies needed to worry about" heap. Infiltrating leaves them entirely intact, and feeling just as betrayed if you slip up on one roll.

And even if Flicker does rule Ankss, she still has to let Mirror in.

Where does stuff like this even come from dude?

 

[xarvh]

Two Worlds = Patropolis


Celebrant = http://www.rpdom.com/threads/two-worlds.50930/#post-657270 (Orichalcum Alchie)

 

[cyl]

1-Perfect Mirror has no wp cost to resist. Only a roll can be made if you have powers, and a good reason to use them, and even then it's at +4 difficulty.


I'm pretty sure I can beat most DK with that +4.


2- Familiarity with the target is a vague, undefined term, it highly depends on the ST's apprecation (I usually consider a few days of observation)


3- it covers faux pas, and MoSM will only increase the protection


This charm is irresistible unless the player fuck up or do something the target would never do, like... help a human being sacrificed... something that would have made Malek blow his cover... but this isn't a problem anymore.


Then, there is Taboo Inflicting Gesture (the Socialize rewriting charm)... you'll note in the description that the roll is opposed to the Leader's MDV... which I will pose as... how does a society that is supposed to be protected by its leader reacts when the leader himself influences it ? Usually it's called unexpected... and it bypasses MDV, therefore success is ensured... unless Xarvh wants to consider the "leader" is the next in the chain of command (but it's not how the charm is supposed to work).


The only real challenge with this option is to kill the DK elder silently and make the body go away... the rest is quasi automatic, but will require some interpretation on my end.


But that wasn't my plan.


My plan involved checking out if the DK knew about Rhapsody, and weave a prophetic dream of a pink haired hero, sent by the sun god returning the eggs and coming to rule the DK as he saw fit.


Between Rhapsody and Malek, we would have crushed this thing.... but wlfsam isn't around enough... so I'm on my own.... but I can manage.

Where does stuff like this even come from dude?

If Flicker rules, her subject won't accept her authority if the first thing she does is letting a unholy thing inside Ankss... and we'll be back to MDK.