[Emperors of the Fading Suns] [Emperors of the Fading Suns] OOC Thread

[xarvh]

The combination of Perfect Mirror and Taboo Inflicting Diatribe is actually a very cool stunt.


If only you could find a way to kidnap Zeesalth and "entrust" him to Fangs before taking his place, I'd wager she'd be ok with the solution.


Assuming that that is what your intentions are, Cyl has a point: the defeated DKs will be like bound demons, doing something they hate begrudgingly, with the exception that no summoning binds them.


Rhapsody could arguably brainwash them back to the fold.

 

[cyl]

Thank you for the compliment. It is a cool combination indeed. You still need to go through some amount of wetwork and preparation for it to work, but once you are in... game over.

 

[Kacie]

I still think it's a damn shame for all of Flicker's work in understanding DK culture and how to properly challenge, for all that to not get used.

 

[cyl]

There must be a way to have the duel and not have to deal with the negative consequences afterwards. I just do not see it right now... and Plan Flicker is full of holes. We just need to think harder if no one wants plan Malek.


Honestly, I don't care how we get to the result, as long as it is optimal. I put Malek up because I know he has tools to go around most problems we will have to face.

 

[xarvh]

Put it in the terms of the duel: "if I win, you tell your allies that we are worth of initiating peaceful diplomacy with them".

 

[CrazyIvan]

The combination of Perfect Mirror and Taboo Inflicting Diatribe is actually a very cool stunt.
If only you could find a way to kidnap Zeesalth and "entrust" him to Fangs before taking his place, I'd wager she'd be ok with the solution.


Assuming that that is what your intentions are, Cyl has a point: the defeated DKs will be like bound demons, doing something they hate begrudgingly, with the exception that no summoning binds them.


Rhapsody could arguably brainwash them back to the fold.

Actually, no, she won't be okay with that solution.


Don't get me wrong, mechanically, it's a very cool stunt.


There are some reasons that I'm pretty sure this version of Ankss will end very badly in terms of Fangs' perception of...a great many things.


Reason the First: Cunning Fangs is angry at Ankss as a society. They chose to enslave human beings. They chose to execute Walker. They are dwelling atop their manse.


Yes, there is a particular leader that is at the head of that, but it is not an individual level problem. Cunning Fangs' goal has always been a system level cautionary tale about what happens to people who idly execute Celestial Exalted.


Reducing that to a bit of torture with an old Dragon King somewhat cheapens that concept. It assumes she can be bought off with a bit of screaming. And it plays directly against her past - the crime against her was not the fall of her city, or the enslavement of her people, but a particular Cynis with a particular fondness for a pair of knives.


Reason the Second: She very clearly established that she wasn't interested in genocide. Pants wetting terror yes, but not genocide.


As far as she's concerned, mind-breaking an entire people into compliance is exactly that, but with an extra helping of horror. Keep in mind Cunning Fangs' entire definition of herself is her intellect. Malek's plan enslaves an entire people, against their will, an entire people and then lets you feel comfy in the fact that you didn't kill them.


Given how she feels about Solars generally, I think it's pretty easy to extrapolate.


She's also very careful with her summoned demons, and actively avoids summoning Elementals.


----


Plan Flicker does have holes. So does Plan Malek - pretending it doesn't isn't useful. They all have holes, because this game uses a random number generator and has a GM.


I happen to like Plan Flicker because it's the one that actually means the most to most of the characters involved, and yes, while it leaves the Dragon Kings dangerous, it leaves them dangerous and possessing their own wills. I don't necessarily consider this a bad thing, because if nothing else, what happens to Ankss is a cautionary tale for whatever the Cross will do in the future.


"Fall into line or we break your minds with our improbably pink woman" seems to me like a good reason to fight us tooth and nail.


But we're going back and forth, and I'm finding it tiresome. So I've said my piece, and *shrug* that's that.

 

[xarvh]

@CI: you be right, I mischaracterized Fangs.

 

[CrazyIvan]

@CI: you be right, I mischaracterized Fangs.

It's all good. She's...kinda complex. Second most complex character I've ever written.

 

[cyl]

The problem with Plan Flicker as it is right now is that it can lead to the destruction of the DK society of Ankss. It's not automatic, but it is IMHO very possible with the way the plan is formed right now.


It may not end up with a total genocide, but there will be some casualties and there may be no more DK society of Ankss afterwards.


Flicker may find this result unacceptable and not really like the fact that we will be forced to brutally slay a few DKs to make examples, and letting an exiled enemy live after us defeating him ain't exactly smart in war times. They will take their revenge, it will take some time but they will come back and pester Cross for they won't be able to forget what we have done to them.


Plan Malek has the same risks, but it has the potential for introducing change without destroying the community. Sure you can argue that changing a community from the inside is practically the same as destroying it... but the results are very different. Preservation of life, new allies and new opportunities, instead of making old enemies even angrier, and on the diplomatic scene it makes us look better because at least we're compassionate tyrants, not just bloodthirsty tyrants.


If we want to be honest, the methods are the same: application of power and violence to obtain the desired results. They are both despotic physically and intellectually.


Either you destroy the community and break bodies and force a new condition to a broken community, or you leave the community physically intact but break minds. On paper, neither looks good.


If one somehow preserves the notion of free will, it deprives the community of its freedom, root it out of its home, and kick it outside leaving it like a hungry and angry pack of wolves... and things could go really wrong from there for other folks, including our settlements.


The other isn't exactly enslavement, it's change. It's not a total rewrite, just like it wouldn't be a complete genocide, it would be controlled application of pressure to change a few specific things (enslavement, hate of the exalts). It would be crippling obviously, but not more or less than a few gruesome executions and exiling the rest of them.


To me the amount of violence potentially required, the desired results and the fallout that make all the difference between them.


I was trying to point out earlier is that we can work harder on Plan Flicker to lock a few things to at least make an effort so that it doesn't end up in physically destroying a DK community... but if the DK society of Ankss is unharmed... Fangs won't be happy anyway.


So as it is right now it's either we take risks including with the surrounding settlements (they will obviously raid villages and take captives to start over) and make Fangs happy, or we contain the situation and try to make the most of it making Fangs unhappy in the process... I don't think there is a middle ground considering your last post...


But it is a very interesting choice for Flicker.

 

[CrazyIvan]

The problem with Plan Flicker as it is right now is that it can lead to the destruction of the DK society of Ankss. It's not automatic, but it is IMHO very possible with the way the plan is formed right now.
It may not end up with a total genocide, but there will be some casualties and there may be no more DK society of Ankss afterwards.

You haven't actually established why this is a bad thing.

The other isn't exactly enslavement, it's change. It's not a total rewrite, just like it wouldn't be a complete genocide, it would be controlled application of pressure to change a few specific things (enslavement, hate of the exalts). It would be crippling obviously, but not more or less than a few gruesome executions and exiling the rest of them.

It is enslavement. It just involves a kind master. But that what happens to Ankss is absolutely and entirely contingent on how much we feel like pressing down is, by definition, horrific.

I was trying to point out earlier is that we can work harder on Plan Flicker to lock a few things to at least make an effort so that it doesn't end up in physically destroying a DK community... but if the DK society of Ankss is unharmed... Fangs won't be happy anyway.



So as it is right now it's either we take risks including with the surrounding settlements (they will obviously raid villages and take captives to start over) and make Fangs happy, or we contain the situation and try to make the most of it making Fangs unhappy in the process... I don't think there is a middle ground considering your last post....

Fangs expressly agreed to Flicker's request because she has no particular interest in genocide, and knows she's the person to work a subtle blade. Her ways are not gentle, they aren't subtle. They will destroy Ankss. Which is why Flicker asked once, and she said yes.


Fangs' one, great requirement, is that We Don't Kill Celestial Exalts is etched into the cultural fabric of Ankss forever and all time.


That, and the Manse that was hers in the first place.


Anything other than that is, well, contrary to everything she's actually said. That everyone seems to assume her only conception of how this could possibly work is genocide is, in her mind, more a condemnation of the limits of their imagination.

 

[JayTee]

Jesus fucking christ, are we still arguing about this?

 

[CrazyIvan]

Jesus fucking christ, are we still arguing about this?

Idle hands.


And a postdoc trying to get out of writing something, which is really frakking dumb, because that postdoc wants a job.

 

[JayTee]

I feel like we should implement some kind of voting system, 'cause shit gets argued about a LOT.

 

[xarvh]

We're just waiting for Arynne to post. The final choice is hers. Feel free to skip the ooc argument if you want.

 

[xarvh]

I DO skip them myself.

 

[cyl]

Fangs' one, great requirement, is that We Don't Kill Celestial Exalts is etched into the cultural fabric of Ankss forever and all time.


That, and the Manse that was hers in the first place.

Thank you for the clarification, I was really under the impression that spilling blood was a necessity for her.


That Malek can actually do.

 

[CrazyIvan]

Thank you for the clarification, I was really under the impression that spilling blood was a necessity for her.
That Malek can actually do.

I mean, don't get me wrong, there's nothing bad about spilling blood...

 

[cyl]

Usually there isn't. People usually give in to their fear of pain and death, so violence works.


But as all weapons it has its limits and there are situations in which using it is counterproductive.


To me Ankss is one of those.

 

[Arynne]

I'm waiting to see how the argument plays out -- I know it's meta, but I want to see which solution will cause the least ill feeling and "I told you so"s among my fellow players. I don't want this game to stop being fun.

 

[cyl]

Oh I think we just did that.


I thought Fangs was bent on killing at least a few DKs, but apparently I was wrong.


Now the only question remains; how do we effectively combine the duel with Malek reforming Ankss ?


Perhaps we could target the second in command before the duel... without their leader the DK could turn on Fangs but if Malek is already in place and high enough in the chain of command he could appease the tension of the moment with performance charms.


Once the duel is over, he'll start reforming the society to the desired result posing as the new leader.

 

[Kacie]

I'm waiting to see how the argument plays out -- I know it's meta, but I want to see which solution will cause the least ill feeling and "I told you so"s among my fellow players. I don't want this game to stop being fun.

Arynne, I'm already not having fun. I've been locked out of a scene that I've been trying to have since I joined the game. Mirror had 2 goals upon entering the game; find her Mate, and go settle things in Ankss.


I feel like Cyl views my character as an attack-dog that should be left in the kennel and only let out when Malek has an enemy he wants killed. I don't feel like a PC, I feel like I feel like my character is being thrust into an NPC role, and a particularly dull one at that.


Story-wise, there are three characters with a strong reason to be at Ankss; Fangs, because they killed her Mate, Mirror, because they're squatting in her manse and killed her predecessor, and Flicker, who is all about trying to unite and preserve the DK culture. Now Cyl/Malek shows up and takes over the scene and locks me out? Not happy.


Last IC post I got to make was 3 weeks ago.


I see no reason why I can't take back my character and post that she is restless and tired of waiting on the edge of Ankss, and that she will start to march towards the citadel with her Mate.

 

[cyl]

I feel like Cyl views my character as an attack-dog that should be left in the kennel and only let out when Malek has an enemy he wants killed. I don't feel like a PC, I feel like I feel like my character is being thrust into an NPC role, and a particularly dull one at that.

That is absolutely not how I view Mirror, at all. Or Fangs.
I already tried to tell you that Mirror could focus her attention on other pressing matters and participate to the life of the dominion, and I was trying to avoid this "Last IC post I got to make was 3 weeks ago." thing because I knew Ankss wasn't going to be quickly resolved.

Story-wise, there are three characters with a strong reason to be at Ankss; Fangs, because they killed her Mate, Mirror, because they're squatting in her manse and killed her predecessor, and Flicker, who is all about trying to unite and preserve the DK culture. Now Cyl/Malek shows up and takes over the scene and locks me out? Not happy.

You overlook the fact that I repeatedly stated that the DK thing is part of a Flicker - Malek thing. Why on earth would Malek care about the stupid lizards if he didn't have a personal interest in them ?!
I may not have built his bg around DK culture like Arynne did with Flicker, but I did it so we could have something to work on together... we originally planned to take it to Rathess, but now we have Ankss...


Malek's past incarnation was such a good friend with the DK that he invented a MA style for them... so letting a DK society get destroyed (but not annihilated) is simply incompatible with his background IMHO.


I'd really appreciate not reading any further comments about Malek not being rightfully involved.

I see no reason why I can't take back my character and post that she is restless and tired of waiting on the edge of Ankss, and that she will start to march towards the citadel with her Mate.

Because that will underline the inability of the couple to work with an agenda and will set them apart from the Circle further... effectively complicating this game further ?


We clearly have a conflict of interest here, so the best thing to do is to state what we want as players (not as characters) and then try to make it compatible with our characters.


I want to reform the DK, make them our allies for the future battles to come.


I don't want to see them punished them for something I know I would have done myself (I pity the guy who tries to hurt a child of mine), and I certainly don't want them to become a threat to the Scavenger Lands because I'm working my ass off to make it safer.


What do you want ?

 

[Kacie]

I want to meaningfully participate in this game.


I have a character who is more than a collection of skills and charms, with a personality I want to play. In the option where Flicker initiates the ritual challenge, I get to participate as an honor guard to Flicker, along with Fangs and Malek. All four of us get to interact with NPCs and with a scene that is important to all of us.


The other option is Malek Does Everything. I do not even get to come on screen.


Given that both options have the same amount of blood and risk, I want the option where I get to be a part of the game.

 

[xarvh]

Kacie has a point, this is dragging too long.


Cyl, I understand that you want to plan it well and I am really happy you are considering all the possibilities, but maybe this is the moment to take the game less seriously.


Hey, it's a game, it's supposed to be fun.


Even if a major fuck up happens, it can still be fun to play.


Besides, you guys are stressing over Ankss when Two Worlds is much more powerful and potentially more aggressive.


Arynne, I want to you to make your move on Ankss as soon as possible.


Talk with Kacie and CI to decide what is best, by PM or IM or whatever suits you guys, just keep the discussion out of this thread.


Cyl, please stay out of the decision.


If your decision involves Cyl, he'll play along.


Cyl, I want you to focus on Two Worlds.


Decide what is best, talk with Feantari if necessary, but ultimately the choice is yours.


If your decision involves Arynne, Kacie or CI, they will play along.

 

[cyl]

Ok, so we are on the same page.


My latest proposition was to combine plan Flicker with plan Malek, targeting the next in line for the throne to ensure the duel happens in a controlled environment.


I did not think you would have made a difference between being there watching the duel, and not being present at all.