[Emperors of the Fading Suns] [Emperors of the Fading Suns] OOC Thread

[Feantari]

I am not Argis. It's an interesting way to handle K. However, I do think considering her an asset or a tool might be more productive than the get it the fuck out if my face because I want to play with other toys approach. That or I dunno give some reasoning as to your interest in these plans? It seems like a realization of what we have would lead to a more scientific approach from Siham. But all I'm hearing is kill it with fire. Granted we are only hearing this ooc so maybe it's just your personal interest in crossing things off a todo list?

 

[JayTee]

It's less "kill it with fire" and more "stop this thing from being such a huge liability". The only three methods that I can think of are "divorce her from the rest of reality", "fundamentally alter her nature" or "lock her in an invulnerable box and throw away the key".


EDIT: The last one can be either literal (artifact box), or metaphorical (the Yozi Prison)


Any alternate suggestions are welcome

 

[Kacie]

I've actually been doing some thinking on that topic, and I'm starting to think that killing K might actually be a good thing.
When you kill a Primordial, they don't die unless you make it 'stick' with Ghost Eating Technique. However if you kill their Fetch Soul, they are automatically forced to spawn a new one, which in turn radically alters their purview and nature, effectively becoming Yozi.


I think our Win condition as far as K is concerned is to have her swear all the surrender oaths the other Yozi did (effectively binding her forever like the rest of them), take her in to Malfeas and kill her fetch soul. This will divorce her from being the Mother of Essence and in to something else instead, meaning not only do we not have to protect her anymore, but she'll no longer be a problem like that in the first place.

Much as I like CrazyIvan's approach, I don't think these are good ideas.


-- what follows is my interpretation, Xarvh may step in and say this is all wrong.


When you kill a Primordial and force them to reform as the Yozi did, that initial Concept that they embodied no longer exists as it did. The idea remains, but the actual metaphysical force behind the idea is lost. Thus when She Who Lives In Her Name was bound, the Concept of a just and fair hierarchy was lost. The ideal of it still exists, but instead of that being metaphysically reinforced by Creation, the natural state is to fall away from a just and fair hierarchy. Solars have charms that can reinforce it, but they themselves are Cursed and fall from Just Rulership, which is also broken.


If you're running with this idea, then if the Mother of Essence is mutilated to become a Yozi, the Essence of Creation will change, too. Probably not in a way that most people like.


An example from a game I played in a while ago; turns out the Scarlet Empress had achieved enough enlightenment to become the Fetich of Gaia. If she had died, Creation would have continued - Gaia wouldn't have been permanently dead, she would have reformed, after all. But Creation would no longer have been organized along the Five Elements. Everything would be in chaos and flux as Gaia's souls changed and reformed.


Xarvh may say the above is all bunk, of course.


Never the less, I'd rather error on the side caution and preserve the Mother of Essence in some way that 1) puts her out of harm's way, but 2) preserves her nature intact.


Unless we're losing and the forces of Death are closing in all around us. Then we might want to risk the Mother of Essence reforming in hopes we'll get an edge out of it. After all, if she doesn't go Neverborn, then the forces of Death might be denied access to Essence.


That's a very, very slender reed upon which to hang the world, however.

 

[JayTee]

Minor corrections which kinda undermine your argument: SWLIHN never embodied a just fair hierarchy, just hierarchy. Torment didn't stop existing once Adrian, the River of All Torments, was fetch-deathed in to becoming Adjoran The Silent Wind.


Creation as a whole is largely detached from the Yozi already, but the concepts that they embody still exist in one way or another (Malfeas = tyranny, Ebon Dragon = evil, etc). The same would hold true if we decide to fetch-death K.


EDIT: Note that I am, as mentioned above, perfectly willing to lock her in a box of some kind. So long as she's no longer a threat to us, I'm happy.

 

[Kacie]

Yet Cecylene's Concept was also the boundary and wall between Creation and the Wyld; the Fae invading was impossible when she was her true self before becoming Cecylene.


Now Fae Crusades are a deadly tide that eat at Creation.


I'm totally fine with locking Keyneya in a box.

 

[JayTee]

I'm pretty sure that was Adrian's job to keep out the Fae. But eh, it's a moot issue. Locking her in a box and throw away the key, or divorcing her from reality seem to be the solutions with the least possible negative fallout, so that's what I'll go with.

 

[WlfSamurai]

Wait. I'm confused. Who am I healing?

 

[Kacie]

Keyneya, Primordial Mother of Essence. Hasn't really recovered from Mirror's attack, stuck in a coma in her little insectile body.

 

[xarvh]

@WlfSamurai But no pressure...

 

[cyl]

A few thoughts on Big K:


- The dead use the essence from the Underworld, so killing the little Mantis to sap their strength won't probably work


- the consequences of reforming her may not be such a good idea considering what happened the last time she was hit... she was badly injured but not quite killed and the essence of Creation got so scrambled we couldn't access our periphereal sources for quite a while (leading to the fall of Lookshy).


- if the solars of old left her alone instead of throwing her ass in Malfeas like the rest of the Yozis, if the Mask of Winters wanted her dead, and if the Neverborn took advantage of Mirror and took the first chance they got to strike her to further their plans to destroy Creation... then perhaps it means she is central to the universe and must be preserved.


So far she seems pretty detached - considering her connection with practically everything, that doesn't surprise me at all - and while yes she is a liability, she seems like a very important piece of Creation (see the part where she moves the center of Creation for a few degrees just to show Lytke who's the real boss around here).


This is not to say that we cannot get rid of her. She was detached before, but now she got really hurt there is a chance she became cognizant of her own possible mortality, and from there she may have a different - less detached - approach...


Whatever happens, letting her die or killing her again is too risky IMHO... considering what we know she can do (snap her finger and change a solar caste) I really don't want her hurt or pissed.


@xarvh: at this point in our memories do we know for sure that Gaia even exist ?


Apparently for some reason we forgot all about Big K... but maybe Gaia is part of some elaborated scheme from Lytek or other deities to tell us a fairy tale about a nice Primordial who loved us so much she did everything she could in order to save mankind... but conveniently left the building a while ago...


Same questions about the Five Elemental Dragons... considering Keyneya's control over essence, they could have absolutely nothing to do with the flow of essence as savants think they know about it.

 

[xarvh]

Your past memories are very bad at distinguishing facts from fiction.


Chances are that "Gaia" existed and didn't take sides in the Primordial War.


Big K has always been even more neutral than Gaia, and for some reason during the PW none considered attacking her.


Already after the PW, the name "Keyneya" became bound more and more with an abstract principle than with an actual being and her being so detatched and inconspicuous didn't help.


You know for certain that Agatha knew about her, but then again Agatha was a paranoid misanthropist.

 

[cyl]

Ok so basically, it would be a good thing to actually study things instead of relying on 2nd age writings and OOC knowledge and see what Creation is really made of instead of assuming we know what's what.

 

[JayTee]

Siham's Lore check on Kanaya Lore check (10d10.hits(7)=3) + 6 automatic successes from the 2nd excellency and a WP point = 9 successes total. According to the rules, that's 5 successes higher than "Nearly Impossible" (difficulty 4).


What does Siham know about Kanaya? (which should be everything :tongue

 

[cyl]

@WlfSamurai: so I tried something, dunno if that's going to work, it's your turn

 

[cyl]

@xarvh: come to think about it, couldn't we use Magic Shattering Strike & Order Affirming Blow in order to cure the Behemoth ?

 

[cyl]

@xarvh : I'd like your opinion on the following charms:
Cover Shrounding Movement (IMUC p.21)


Night's Avenger Lunge (IMUC p.24)


Reversal of Fortune (IMUC p.24)


Aegis of Altruistic Imposition (SoE 2.5 p.167)


I'd also like a ruling on King of Thieves Spirit (SoE 2.5 p.168 ) : can it be used at essence 4 to steal artifacts in active use without breaking the commitment according to you ?


Thanks in advance

Sorry to bump this up a notch, but I'd really like some answers ^^


Also, I think I will invest in Linguistics.


I've never looked at it, but the tree and the combination between the several possible effects is quite interesting, especially for someone like Malek who likes to stay discrete.


Bureaucracy also seems interesting to screw with the Deathlords operations.


Also, now that the Mask seems to be focused on Lookshy and the rest of his conquest plan... we could probably do something about Thorns...

 

[cyl]

Edited my last post because I'm not sure I'm going to take essence 4 and SEB right away (note that Flicker can pick it up too, as well as the equivalent of Swallowing the Lotus Root which halves the cost of TMA charms, even retroactively ).


I have an alternative xp plan for a more efficient and cunning Eclipse:


- screw essence 4 (it kinda puts an infiltrator in a bad place with spirits and occult guys) and Mantis Style (it's an unarmed style and I have no more artifacts anyway, I'll finish it later)


- Dodge to 4 Shadow Over Water, Reflex Sidestep Method, Leaping Dodge Method & Seven Shadow Evasion for protection (how I wish I was still a Night Caste sometimes... )


- Linguistics to 5, an excellency, Sagacious Reading of Intent (social PD), Letter-Within-A-Letter Technique (for secret correspondence and written surprise attacks), and Twisted Words Technique (extremely useful if you know how to use it) or Discerning Savant's Eye (always useful and anti social surprise)


- Larceny to 5, Flawlessly Impenetrable Disguise, Perfect Mirror, Shadow of the Sun Course (Ninja / Spies training charm),


- Investigation to 4 , Judge's Ear Technique and Know the Soul's Price


From there it's all about information, getting it, controlling it, using it, altering it and spreading it.


Malek will be kinda like the Chosen of the Maidens, always moving things in the background to advance his agenda: screwing with the Deathlords and their kniights !

 

[CrazyIvan]

@xarvh: at this point in our memories do we know for sure that Gaia even exist ?


Apparently for some reason we forgot all about Big K... but maybe Gaia is part of some elaborated scheme from Lytek or other deities to tell us a fairy tale about a nice Primordial who loved us so much she did everything she could in order to save mankind... but conveniently left the building a while ago...


Same questions about the Five Elemental Dragons... considering Keyneya's control over essence, they could have absolutely nothing to do with the flow of essence as savants think they know about it.

Remember, some of us aren't.





Fangs and Siham have both spent tremendous amounts of time in a First Age library, reading essentially random things. The core of Fangs' tower is also a First Age library, though not nearly as well stocked.


Fangs had a regular tea-and-Gateway date with a Hidden Judge, who has been around since the beginning.


Fangs also probably spends a not insignificant portion of her time chatting (and doing less savory things) with Sondok, and her bosses were there. They probably have good cause to remember "That traitorous bitch..."


She's also got a specialty in Lunar Lore (which I'll likely be bumping up soon with my massive pile of XPs). Gaia is, well, kind of an important figure in Lunar lore, and again, Lunar lore was first put in place by people who were there. Over the centuries, a lot of details have likely gone missing, but the broad strokes existence of a Primordial collaborator is all that's actually necessary.


---


As far as Fangs is concerned, from an IC perspective she actually cares not one bit about defending Keyneya. In her mind, anything of that level of power that cannot defend itself is unworthy of protection, and is clearly more than happy to let Creation go to hell in a hand basket. She should pick another direction, another place to hide, and be done with it.

 

[JayTee]

Pretty much this.

 

[Arynne]

Looks like Malek and Flicker are going to be standing between the other Exalted and their target again...

 

[CrazyIvan]

Looks like Malek and Flicker are going to be standing between the other Exalted and their target again...

Eh, Fangs isn't inclined to hurt Big K.


She simply doesn't care. Slightly increased utility in the coming posts could change that.

 

[cyl]

Re Gaia: it's not like that idea of Gaia was impossible to forge, even among elders.


They were young once, and iirc, there are no more survivors of the PW alive.


Re Big K: her being hurt made all Creation essence users weak. If she does not deserve to be protected, I don't who does.

 

[CrazyIvan]

Re Gaia: it's not like that idea of Gaia was impossible to forge, even among elders.
They were young once, and iirc, there are no more survivors of the PW alive.


Re Big K: her being hurt made all Creation essence users weak. If she does not deserve to be protected, I don't who does.

Yes Cyl, it's possible everything we know is a lie. But it's pointless to act as if that was true, unless this is Exalted: Epic Sitting On Hands And Waiting For Things To Happen edition.


As for Big K, she's utterly unwilling to defend herself (or incapable of doing it). It's like being handled a priceless glass antique and being told "Don't Drop This, but I need you to go participate in a triathlon too". She's impossible *to protect* without that becoming the singular point of the game, and we should stop pretending otherwise.


But if Malek wants to be on permanent Big K garrison duty, I'm not going to stop him.

 

[cyl]

So you do not find it strange that everybody knows about Gaia, but nobody knew about Big K...

 

[JayTee]

Because K is a homebrew primordial who by all rights should not exist and does things that should not happen.