[Emperors of the Fading Suns] [Emperors of the Fading Suns] OOC Thread

[CrazyIvan]

I am growing tired of all this.


If you want a game where you kill nameless celestials one after the others, be my guest.

There is a vast excluded middle in that statement. The request is not for Easy Mode. The request is to occasionally feel like a success, rather than a failure fighting an inevitably doomed battle against stacked odds. Like I said, some carrot along with the stick.

Mirror got already to fight ghosts when entering the Labyrinth.
They lasted shit.


Tell me, was it fun?

You mean where we got to use Death Badger, teleport about doing tricksy shit, and have Mirror standing in the middle of a shattering obsidian hurricane while she remembered several lifetimes of her and Fangs fighting as a pair, doing what Exalts are intended to do?


Yeah, that was actually quite fun.

 

[CrazyIvan]

Ouch. Cruel mercy for an Abyssal.

Yeah, that's...ouch. And hilarious.

 

[xarvh]

Yeah, that was actually quite fun.

Then why the fuck are you complaining?

 

[CrazyIvan]

Then why the fuck are you complaining?

I'm not. I'm just saying that it's not exactly insane for Kacie to be upset, and I've absolutely been there. And it's not because I play a lot of DnD.


I've said, repeatedly, that I'm having a great deal of fun in this game - it's the only one that survived my dissertation without me dropping out. But it is occasionally frustrating, as a player, to start feeling like you're just consistently outmatched by everything.


At least unless you're playing Dark Heresy

 

[xarvh]

Mirror splattered the ghosts in the tunnel, led the Death Badger to splatter hundreds more, and forced the Mask's right hand to a desperate escape.


How is that being outmatched?


As a side note, once you see that a character has a special power, you should consider the effects of that power being used again. And again.

 

[Arynne]

Well, I'm having fun. As vexing as it is sometimes when the challenges fall on our heads like rain. I just keep reminding myself it's only a game.


By-the-bye, I posted a question in "The Delicate Art of Massive War".

 

[Feantari]

xarvh, look at the list that Kacie put up earlier of how she sees her character affecting the narrative. She finally gets a fight against an opponent with value to the story and as a combat character sees a way to make a positive impact. Then in a rather deus ex machina sort of mechanism that escapes her (again, from the perspective of the player).


I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong here, but consider it from that perspective and understand why these feelings are being expressed?


Even in this harsh life here it isn't all bad breaks, but it can often feel like it given the ambitions of the characters/players and how far short they fall from their goals and self expectations.

 

[CrazyIvan]

Mirror splattered the ghosts in the tunnel, led the Death Badger to splatter hundreds more, and forced the Mask's right hand to a desperate escape.
How is that being outmatched?


As a side note, once you see that a character has a special power, you should consider the effects of that power being used again. And again.

I'm not saying that particular instance was being outmatched - indeed, one of the reasons it was fun was because it wasn't. But do you recall that before that, I had a similarly frustrating issue with feeling like Fangs was useless?


As for the rest, while we may have forced the Mark's right hand to make a play for his life, there's still no sign that our little jaunt isn't an unmitigated failure. We have no idea how to spring Malek. Words running means Words is running to something, and if a full Essence Mirror can't best Words, she sure as hell can't best whatever Words brings back when she's tapped out.


And springing Malek was a target of opportunity, not the original objective of the trip.


Honestly, I enjoyed the Mass Combat bit, once we ironed out Fangs not being bloody useless, and the scene between Fangs and Malek was worth a little bit of angst over.


I enjoy this game. I continue to enjoy this game. But I don't think its insane for a player who should be One Of the Best at something to feel a little frustrated that they got by by the skin of their teeth, and feel like they're not sure it'll be different in the future.

 

[xarvh]

@Feantari: The first use of that deus ex forced Words in a dead end.


The first time you see a power it is ok to be surprised. The second, it is not.


@CI: Let's take another Dusk, Harm, vs Mirror.


How long would have he lasted?


You think it's easy to create and place NPCs that will:


1) Provide a credible threat to a PC that rolls 20something dice per attack


2) At the same time, NOT mow down the other, non-combat PCs they might encounter


3) Have a consistent place in the story rather than popping up randomly according to the PCs that they will face


Yes, I remember when you were upset about Fangs uselessness, and it was largely a matter of perception, of putting a lot of effort into searching for the negative and completely ignoring the positive, which is why I feel like banging my head against the wall repeatedly.

 

[CrazyIvan]

@CI: Let's take another Dusk, Harm, vs Mirror.


How long would have he lasted?

I've no clue, what are you trying to get at?

You think it's easy to create and place NPCs that will:
1) Provide a credible threat to a PC that rolls 20something dice per attack


2) At the same time, NOT mow down the other, non-combat PCs they might encounter


3) Have a consistent place in the story rather than popping up randomly according to the PCs that they will face

I haven't said that.

Yes, I remember when you were upset about Fangs uselessness, and it was largely a matter of perception, of putting a lot of effort into searching for the negative and completely ignoring the positive, which is why I feel like banging my head against the wall repeatedly.

...and I'm done for the night.

 

[xarvh]

I've no clue, what are you trying to get at?

Mirror would have mowed down him in a few turns, getting no sense of accomplishment whatsoever.


Anyway, good night, I need lunch.

 

[Feantari]

@xarvh


This is far less about if it is right or wrong or good STing or whatever. Its us saying at least acknowledge that Kacie has a legit reason to feel frustrated in this game. Its not a call for justification or a reason to get defensive. Just a hey give him/her a break for reacting like that and try not to take it personally. Sometimes the number of enemies and issues facing cross are overwhelming for those of us that have been in the game for awhile. We at least don't have to prove we aren't part of the enemies column on top of it all.

 

[xarvh]

Yeah, I must apologize to CI and Kacie, I snapped.


And I must apologize to Kacie, because the next post will possibly frustrate her even more.


Please be patient, this is a game of large things, and they take time.

 

[cyl]

That's not...
Wisdom of the Celestial Crane:


"...An attack that successfully deals bashing damage also causes its victim to lose a point of willpower.


A character who loses their last willpower point this way or who is reduced to their incapacitated health level by a supplemented attack instantly forms an intimacy of love for creation, as an irresistible unnatural emotion effect."


Argis isn't about killing.

Oooooooh, SHINY !

 

[cyl]

Well, the important thing is that we all understood why Kacie was frustrated.


The ST did, the players did.


Xarvh apologized a few times already for being rather "nervous" about Kacie's concern and frustration, and it's understandable that, considering the amount of work and the hours he puts into this game, a player seemingly brooding over his inability to kill an important enemy NPC when it goes directly against his own philosophy regarding managing the enemies, is a bit frustrating too and that he reacts proportionately.


It's good to talk about this because it puts things in perspective.


Enemy NPCS have died or were severely wounded by our hands (remember Walker took a pretty good shot at the Legion), but the ST will not let the important ones die so easily just because we're shooting at them with the big guns.


Celestials are supposed to fight against each other during epic duels lasting entire days, but the system makes it so they can die in seconds.


If we want someone dead, we have to really want it, we have to work for it, and we have to earn it.


I'm okay with that deal, personally, even if I had a combat focused character, I wouldn't want to be able to kill anything I see just because I can hit hard & fast enough.


We also have to be aware of who we want dead and why, for that as the ST said, the important thing is to know and study who's who and what's what.


The Widow was a bitch, but her actions gave a different insight on the character, and that other deathknight in Lookshy wasn't keen on killing people either... not all deathknights must die, pretty much the same way I'm sure we will encounter lunars and solars that will work against us for some reason or another.


On another note; considering the impact the death of a major npc will have on the game, I can't but support that philosophy of "making things not so easy during the first encounters".


If / when we beat guys like Words, Void Heart, or Legion... then we will buy ourselves a few years on them, and by the time their successors come back to torment us, we'll be so much more powerful that they won't be able to affect us as much as they did before and we will also greatly reduce the Deathlords' powers and influence.


With each death, we gain some ground and the enemy loses ground he will probably never be able to gain back.


So yeah, thematically the death of a major npc has to be a big deal and we have to bear with our ST when he plays his tricks to balance the equation because it's not the right time to have Major NPC X die just because we swung our artifact weapons and threw a combination of charms at him.

 

[cyl]

@Kacie : also, on an unrelated note, since you have a combat focused character, I think the demons and exalts Hard As Mountain told us about are kinda meant to be handled by Mirror & Fangs.

 

[Arynne]

Flicker is meaning to ask for help with that...and in return, she can suggest to Fangs how to play on the Dragon Kings' pride to force them to meet her in single combat, with control of Ankss as the prize.

 

[xarvh]

@KacieI think the demons and exalts Hard As Mountain told us about are kinda meant to be handled by Mirror & Fangs.

Nope.


They are not "meant".


I do not tailor the enemies on the PCs.


And also, I was ready to handle Words' death.


I'm not saving NPCs at all costs, I just make it difficult to kill them.


As a side note, 3ed combat is fabled to be very non-lethal: the winner can accumulate enough advantage well before dealing any actual damage, allowing the loser to attempt retreat without even wound penalties.

 

[cyl]

Nope.


They are not "meant".


I do not tailor the enemies on the PCs.

I wasn't implying that you did, I just meant to say that this was a very good opportunity for Mirror to use her skills.
I think I have brought that up a few weeks / months back already.

And also, I was ready to handle Words' death.


I'm not saving NPCs at all costs, I just make it difficult to kill them.

That is absolutely true.
Technically you killed more abyssals than we did !


The Traveller was killed by the Widow (I'll always remember the poisoned cigar of victory) and Harm was crushed by Hard As Mountain.

As a side note, 3ed combat is fabled to be very non-lethal: the winner can accumulate enough advantage well before dealing any actual damage, allowing the loser to attempt retreat without even wound penalties.

I'm both curious and cautious about that.


As we say in my country "the scalded cat fears cold water".

 

[Feantari]

Will Flicker's delegate have time to learn an excellency during the few weeks to a month that we have with the army on the move?

 

[Norts]

Wow, I missed a whole lot of SERIOUS going on here.

 

[Norts]

On another note, is there time to learn a couple charms?

 

[xarvh]

@Flicker, Norts: yes and yes.

 

[Norts]

Well, I went ahead and added the main 4 I've been looking at for a while. If this is too many, I will reduce them backwards until acceptable parity is met.

 

[Kacie]

I am now caught up on OOC, having taken an enforced break to insure I had at least one good night's rest first.


Feantari has captured my points in the best, most neutral way:

xarvh, look at the list that Kacie put up earlier of how she sees her character affecting the narrative. She finally gets a fight against an opponent with value to the story and as a combat character sees a way to make a positive impact. Then in a rather deus ex machina sort of mechanism that escapes her (again, from the perspective of the player).


I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong here, but consider it from that perspective and understand why these feelings are being expressed?


Even in this harsh life here it isn't all bad breaks, but it can often feel like it given the ambitions of the characters/players and how far short they fall from their goals and self expectations.

I've been waiting and wading through scenes patiently to try and get to a place where Fangs and I could finally get real solid information to help against the Mask. The idea was to brave the stronghold, get in, and get our hands on something that would tell us his plans, or give us some idea of how to mess up his operations, or take out a valuable target.


That's subverted by needing to rescue Malek. We still have nothing of what we came here to get.


Killing Words would have provided us invaluable intel and removed a valued target. The group has wanted him dead or stripped of his Ring of Non for ages. We know he's responsible for propaganda making it seem like the Bloom is evil. We know he's been torturing Malek. Fangs & Mirror braved the stronghold partially because they believe they have a shot of carrying it off, but also out of sheer desperation - when they set out, there wasn't anything else on the table they could do to help. We picked our way through Thorns, slogged our way through the Labyrinth, which took months of real-life game play - and at the end of all this, we either have to survive the trip back or fight our way out the front -


And still we don't know enough about Words to be worthy of killing him, haven't suffered enough to worthy, according to the recent OOC posts.


It's clear we have a clash of expectations about games. I look for excitement, fun, and great story. I do not look for levels of frustration that match or exceed my real life. I do not want to simulate the crushing despair and uncertainty of a hero's life. I have my own real life for that.


This is, from your posts, what you want from a game.


Therefore I'm a bad match for this game. I keep waiting and waiting for things to turn around, and they don't change.


It is my policy to quit games that cause me to lose sleep and/or be ineffective at work after a frustrating episode; this happened Tuesday.


I feel badly about leaving my fellow players in the lurch, however, especially since the way this game would go, they'd end up facing her under NPC control.


Right now I'm thinking of a trial period, long enough to resolve freeing Malek, which to my mind means getting him to a safe place (or the Cross). At that point, I'll see whether I'm feeling better disposed towards the narrative of my character, as Feantari says.


Alternatively, if after all I've said Xarvh would like me to leave now, I will do so.


Now I'm off to read this post that will apparently make me even less happy.


---


Thoughts on some of what was said: re games being easy or crushingly hard - there should be a happy medium, with a challenging game, but one that isn't frustrating to the point of giving up.


re: loosing a foot -- Words is backed by one of the great powers that has necro-tech surgery. He's lost nothing that can't be replaced easily.