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At the Adventurers' Table: Chapter Eleven

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Heya folks! I am at work posting from my phone. Please excuse any typos. =)

Psychie, that does appear to be the case. Except your black hole analogy sucks (get it? Black hole? Sucks? Hee hee!). =)

Here's the link for the spell again for everyone's convenience.

Wolf? Sure! My reasons are three-fold:
1. Put gently, it is my game and I want it that way.
2. That condition is in the definition of the spell. I see no reason strong enough to alter it.
3. I don't want the headache of having to deal with invisible mirror images.

Here's why. =)
From a PC's perspective, I think I can see the pull here. Having the combination of both spells provides one hell of a defense against many common adversaries.

At least that is the case on the surface.

From the DM's perspective, this simple combination can quickly turn into a rules nightmare. Remember that Dungeons & Dragons is based on wargaming.

Many players don't try to see such things from their Dungeon Master's perspective, so I'm going to ask anyone reading this to try.

So let's say you have two opposed adventuring parties.

Keeping in mind that invisible objects have their own individual concealment bonus, how much fun do you think you will have if, say, one crafty arcanist (an Illusionist) is under the effect of both of these spells, and is set upon by another crafty arcanist, say, a summoner?

Combat ensues.

On his turn, the summoner calls forth his Invisible Stalker, a creature that can naturally see invisible objects, to guide him in finding the illusionist.

As the Dungeon Master, it is now your responsibility to fairly determine the success of both casters.

You must determine the following:
1. Is the summoner's pet able to see the invisible Illusionist and his images (take into account the surroundings, line of sight, available light, and the pet's own perception check, etc.)?
2. Is the Illusionist able to hide and take full advantage of the invisibility? Is the Illusionist aware that he is set upon by an invisible stalker who can see him?
3. If successful, how well can the Summoner and pet communicate what the pet knows over the chaos of combat? Did the Summoner send the pet away or are they together?
4. If the Summoner and pet choose to attack, what are each of their combat modifiers?
5. What if the Summoner guides his party against the Illusionist? What are each of their modifiers?
6. What will The Illusionist do?

All this and I haven't even started rolling dice yet! This isn't fun! This is the opposite. I treasure my game time and don't want to spend it doing this. Instead, I would rather take my time and energy and make a fun scenario that everyone can enjoy instead of them having to wait for me to figure out all this math.

And that is only one example, good Wolf.

Bottom line: The game has to be fun for me too. =)
 
I think that the only time that the two spells would work together is if someone could see the invisible. Then it would apply as a Mirror Image spell as usual to that creature.
 
<shrugs> Just so long as everyone (including the storyteller) has fun and everything is run fairly, I'm fine with the answer.
 
Yeah. I didn't even want to get into who else would use the combination to clever and deadly effect (Monk-mages of Wee Jas anyone?). =)
 
I will try to tackle the topic of Temporal Stasis later today.
 
I was going to post tonight, but Real Life and Real People (including their concerns) come first. So, I focused on this instead.

Wolf Rawrrr said:
Is the change to temporal stasis that characters get XP while away now? Because if I recall correctly, it used to state that they don't, which I resented ever since I made a new character. From a logical point of view, it should matter what the character is doing all the time away. If they are literally resting or recovering, being idle, that would be one thing - but if they're away on a mission or just generic adventuring, it would make sense that they are improving themselves (even if they get reduced XP). It'd be different if they were literally frozen in time or something, aka in stasis, but that's not the case here.
Click to expand...

No such change has been made. Temporal Stasis is still just a place where characters are when no one is playing them (and where Kitrin, Leonard, and Bronze are).

I think I see where you are coming from in the PC in-game sense. You say Leonard Wolf is active and doing things and therefore should be gaining experience points just like Nivirea. That's great! But let's talk meta-game here. No PC in his or her right mind is going to say, "My retired character is idle" if the Dungeon Master is willing to give them free xp and levels, are they? Leonard is retired and therefore out of play.

In Dungeons and Dragons, PCs get experience for playing their characters. It's just like most video games out there. What does your character in Mass Effect, Skyrim, Horizon Zero Dawn, etc. get while you're at work or doing something besides playing the game? Nothing!

The same goes in Sharseya right now. Your character actively gains when they are being played. When they are not being played, they are perfectly safe. Unharmed and unharmable.

Put another way, no risk, no reward.

Sure, we can talk about Kitrin's adventures or Leonard Wolf's mission or Bronze's newest ideas for creations with fondness and warmth all day long, but these talks have no in-game benefit when it comes to doling out character levels/experience and treasure. Bronze has created nothing in-game since Killfire left the game all that time ago. Leonard Wolf has neither gained new weapons and items nor has he lost any. Safe in Temporal Stasis, Kitrin has not been injured, in danger of death, or anything remotely like it.

Anything we create in OOC for them is just valuable story for the characters. Nothing more, nothing less. And that's the way retired characters are handled in Sharseya. If you want to play them again, they are always there. It's not like you say, "Hey, Dann, I'd like to play Leonard Wolf again," to which I reply, "Oh, didn't I tell you? Those giants in the Frozen North ate him." Temporal Stasis removes that worry entirely.

Now... where PCs gain experience when not being played is when Real Life comes a'calling.

Have we not all seen it? One of us pops up in OOC with, "Hey, Real Life's got me by the bum! I'll post when I can, but I don't know when that'll be! Sorry guys!" The rest of us reply with well-wishing and high hopes for the person's return. As I've said for a long time, Real Life Always Comes First. This has happened to all of us except Psychie if my memory serves.

Think about this. Do I dock your characters experience for Real Life coming in and stopping your ability to post? No. It's not your fault you can't post right now. From my standpoint, I say your character is not retired, but still in play.

Cap'n and Sherwood, I'm going to use you both as examples here with the hopes you don't mind. Again, if my memory serves, since November of 2017, I think Cap'n has posted in-character, maybe three times? That's not even once a week, but about once a month. Meanwhile, Sherwood posts far more often and always has. And for years now. Should Otiorin then suffer an experience loss for Capn''s Real Life getting busy? Hell no, I say. I'm glad just to have you guys and gals in my special little world of Sharseya. But Sharseya is not Real Life.

As a reminder, I take all of the experience points each of your characters earn, pool it all together, and then distribute it evenly amongst the entire group. It's the way I said I'd do it when we first started (I had been using that technique to great success in our tabletop games), and I see no reason strong enough to change that now. Besides, again if memory serves, I asked all of you if that was the way you wanted to do it and you agreed.

So... let's go back in-game here. If or when Kaerri or Wolf decided to swap characters, those characters would still have the same level, same RP points, gear, action points, gold, Signature Abilities, Feats, etc. they had when they were retired. Mind you, once they resumed play, they would gain a larger amount of experience in gameplay for facing higher level challenges (and if everyone didn't mind, they would keep most of it, allowing them to catch up to the experience level of the group).

But, consider this. If PCs here could just roll a character, retire it, and still have that retired character gaining xp as if she or he were still in play, well, heck! Where is the fairness in that? You mean all this time Cap'n and Sherwood could have had another 10th level character sitting around all this time? With that in effect, why shouldn't Psychie create three or four characters right now? If one dies, bang! Throw the next one in! They're max level for the game, right?

Your characters are 10th-level-plus right now. Some of you started from 6th level and worked your way up. That's an achievement in my book. Earning your experience has always been a staple of the Dungeons and Dragons game for as long as I have played it. Now what level is Psychie's new character? 9th. So if you guys start out with a new character, you would not have the same amount of experience as characters who have been played all along. Nor should you.

This is why Nivirea is a few steps behind Otiorin and Luna. This is why Oreleth (Psychie's character) is behind Nivirea in experience. Dungeons and Dragons modules often have a range of levels (as opposed to everyone being the same exact level) just because the game works this way. I happen to like it that way.

One more thing - games, like people, have a way of changing over time. Games should change and grow. So, while I am sticking with this now, I may alter it down the road for the sake of gameplay and everyone involved. =)

"The road goes ever on and on..." - The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien. =)
 
What are your thoughts, folks (Psychie too)? =)
 
I'd like to point out that as far as I'm aware (from observing over the years), it works very similarly for NPCs. NPCs that are adventuring with the group seem to level *much* faster than NPCs that don't get out as much.

So, as I see it, the dividing line between XP-time and non-XP-time is whether a character's being roleplayed in the game. I've had several characters in Dannigan's Sharseya over the years, and they've never gotten XP when they weren't being played (they still aren't, for that matter). I'm fine with that.

One sideways sort of exception: There was a time when my character and another player's character went on a side adventure. To keep the game going for everyone else, we all agreed to skip over that period during the regular sessions (the other PCs were assumed to be spending downtime in Highwind, as I recall). Dannigan, the other player, and I roleplayed out the side adventure on our own. Because our PCs were actually being played for that time, they got (a small bit) of XP for it. However, had we just decided to skip it entirely and sum it up without the roleplaying, we wouldn't have gotten the XP. And that seems fair to me.
 
This. =)

Not only did they earn xp, they also had a few extra items enter their inventories (you know the ones I mean). If they hadn't been roleplayed, it all would not have happened the way it did.

So get out there and roleplay (says the DM who needs to post in-game - hah!)! =)
 
It seems to me that it comes down to this: if you don't do stuff, you don't learn from what you are doing, mistakes and all.
 
It seems to me that the source of my disagreement with you, and apparently all of you, is in my perspective. I look at these stories as if they were just that - stories. And a story cannot pause or die. It cannot, or should not, be affected by exterior forces. It goes on as stories do, sometimes with more or less sense, but it must always ring true.

You actually reward the players; for all intents and purposes the players are the ones getting XP and leveling up, albeit under the label of their characters. Whereas I focus on the characters, remotely aware that they are being controlled by people who write them. You are playing a game, and even within that game, you employ metagaming which I strive to avoid. Much of what you say is also clearly influenced by the negative experiences you've had in your years of playing. In comparison, I find it difficult to spot opportunities where one might try to abuse or manipulate the story. That is, when I remember to look for them at all. It does not occur to me to make extra backup characters that level up in the background. When I made Nivirea, I didn't see the potential for hijacking the story that her background offered (before I toned it down). Nor was I aware that my chosen alignment had a bad reputation for being abused.

I simply do not think like that. I only see the story, and where it might go. Perhaps that's a childlike innocence, but if so, I'd rather hold onto that.

I'll try to keep in mind that this is a game *woof*
 
Wolf Rawrrr said:
Much of what you say is also clearly influenced by the negative experiences you've had in your years of playing.
Click to expand...

Wha? You miss all the smiley faces in my post there, Wolf? You know, these? =) =) =)

On the contrary! You want "clear"? Read on!

I was about 12 or 13 when I first started playing D&D. I was maybe 14 when my mother introduced me to an acquaintance of hers who was a Dungeons and Dragons veteran. I had never before met someone who had been roleplaying D&D long-term, so I was excited to talk to her.

With a grin, this 40-something-year-old woman asked me what I played. I replied, "9th level Ranger." He was my favorite character at the time and I had not played him from 1st level, but later on. Still, he was solid gold to me. I had had some wonderful times with him.

"How about you? Who is your favorite character?"

Without hesitation, she smiled fondly. "My 25th level Cleric."

25TH LEVEL CLERIC?! Holy wowzercows!

"Are you serious?!"

"Yep!"

Friends, the 1st Ed. AD&D Players Handbook only goes to level 20!!

"How long have you had her?"

"Since level 1."

That floored me like a Powerpaw HammerSmack to my face.

To those who are not familiar with 1st Edition Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, this lady had put the better part of my then-Real-Life-lifetime into that character (and said as much as our chat continued). She had been playing in the kind of campaign that consisted of fair Dungeon Mastering (no power-leveling, for example), great roleplaying, and a character history that sounded like it was something out of The Lord of the Rings! She could recite her role-playing character's lineage! Her skill with all-things-Cleric was scholarly! She was very familiar with every aspect of this, her favorite class.

And she had earned every single experience point. Incredible!

Man, I wasn't just impressed; I was blown out of the water! All this time later, I still am. At the time, I had no idea people roleplayed for years into decades! Maybe one day I would earn a 25th level character of my own...

Wolf Rawrrr said:
I simply do not think like that. I only see the story, and where it might go. Perhaps that's a childlike innocence, but if so, I'd rather hold onto that.
Click to expand...

Of course! It's O.K. No one is asking you to give that up or change how you think. Besides, you're far from the only child-like person in here. Maybe that's why everyone here often gets along so well. =)

Wolf Rawrrr said:
I'll try to keep in mind that this is a game *woof*
Click to expand...

This. Sharseya is and always has been a game (going on it's 18th year if you start when I created this world). It's a D&D/Pathfinder game you've been playing for over three years now and well at that! I have always kept in mind that this is your first D&D game and also, likewise, that you have yet to experience D&D tabletop. That's one reason I haven't kept it combat-heavy.

Of course, your going into a dungeon for the first time will likely make up for all that non-combat-time. For Wolf, at least, this is your very first dungeon (and for everyone but Kaerri, it's your first D&D dungeon with me as your DM). Good times await! =)
 
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I hope to post tomorrow (Real Life pending). Hope Real Life is treating each of you well! =)
 
Heya folks! A Powerpaw fumble, just for your amusement. =)

It's a repeating clip, but this cat is nuts! =)
 
Yay! Real Life has finally calmed down and I haz more time to game now!

That said, may I toss a few ideas everyone's way to see how you feel?

1. I'd like to get Psychie into the game as soon as possible. However, a trip to Ben & Misha's, as productive as that would likely be, might further delay this (and she's been waiting 3 months). I am hesitant to just have her show up right now to EarthHome looking for the Wayward Wanderers (because "shoe-horning" someone in is just poor roleplaying). There is also the matter of Psychie never having played a Wood Elf in Sharseya here. The people of the Forest Eternal are a special tribe (as Kaerri can easily attest to).

So, what's an ideal solution? Do I create a prologue for Oreleth (Psychie's character) and we one-on-one it for a few weeks while you guys go shopping (which, by the way, has its own little roadblock which I'll cover in section 2 below)? Should Kaerri, Psychie, and I start a nice long talk here in Adventurers' Table and have Psychie meet the Wanderers sooner? Any other ideas out there, friends?

2. Shopping. When I first started Sharseya Online, I made 10th level a special level for Kaerri to reach if she decided to play either of her previous main characters. Well, she did and now we have Bren. I am not the kind of DM to say, "Hey, remember all that loot you've accumulated since the year 2000? Well, you can't play with any of it." I find that approach unfair.

So... as you might imagine, Bren has a good deal of loot that I have not let him touch because it was just too much for a pre-10th-level campaign. Nothing earth-shaking (except for one item), but potent stuff nonetheless. Oh, and not all of that, either. Some of that stuff is still a little too strong for our current campaign yet. Not to mention the gold and jewels Kaerri has stacked up from 18 years of off-and-on adventures with Bren alone (let's not even get into her other main. =) ). If you're going shopping, PCs should have the loot they have earned to shop with (whether you've been playing 3 years or 18+).

And so... there are a few items his previous crew collected (a certain statue among them) that I need to point out is considered team gear from The Light in the Dark. Kaerri and I are in the process of talking about these items (as in which are available and not) and how a few of them might enter the Wayward Wanderers.

That's where we're at right now. What I want are your thoughts and feelings on the matter, please?
 
As a typical player, I want instant satisfaction and I want it now! Seriously, I understand the troubles of trying to introduce a new character into the mix of an established group. Why would this team even want to have a new member after doing so well as they are? Without forcing me into the group, if we could start some kind of intro to help me get introduced to the group, I think that would work better. Perhaps I have met Bren before his time with the Wayward Wanderers, since he used to be a higher level character and Oreleth has such a long lifespan, we could have crossed paths? Or I might have known Oscar before his red panda days. These are just some idle suggestions, so feel free to use or discard them as you see fit.
 
My issue with the shopping is that I am dealing with expensive tastes and a cheap budget. Luna just got a major boost to her character sheet in the form of her Wand of Scorching Rays, so I would be in the market for extra armor to keep me alive and well as our intrepid team deals out the hurt on the bad guys. Also, we have never had the chance to delve into the prismalcum ore that we have. I would love to have a good pair of bracers from that to try and boost my AC, and see what else it can do for me. Do we have enough time to have it worked on?
 
I can relate to Psychie's situation so I'll say that I want her to be able to play as soon as possible. Time is fleeting! Lee says so right there at the end of each of your posts, Dann! *woof*

I was expecting that we'd either run into Oreleth while making preparations in Highwind, OR during the early phase of our dungeon crawl.

As for the loot issue, from what I hear you and Kaerri are already doing what should be done about that. I got nothing to say on that front *woof*
 
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