Wyld Hunting 101 [To the Hunt!, Wyld that is...]
- Thread starter cyl
- Start date
inirlan
Junior Member
You forgot the wasp which could be used as scout(and they would have to fail a compassion roll to attack it!), flying spell/archery platform(can transport up to 2 armored men!) and if need be can help with hit and run attacks using it's sting.
Maybe i could summon an additionnal demon or two after we begin the game.
Maybe i could summon an additionnal demon or two after we begin the game.
Atrius Night
One Thousand Club
Well, I like keeping my blood ape handy (or in my hand/wrist to be precise) so I have principle of motion ready for use but I can release it if I and other folks that are supposed to be ranged find ourselves in the disturbing position of the front lines.
I am a big fan of Anhules but am already at the accepted limit of 3 demons, that isn't an entirely hard rule but.....It might be best of I bind it to serve another.....Anyone skilled in ride?...It could make a fun/interesting mount....! Mount of course would be a secondary function after incapacitation. For mounts the wasps have a clear advantage especially since they have one of the few easy teleports in the game....
My brother drove off with my book, but aren't Teodozijas the ones with the hive mind? Useful as they might be, I'm fully against anyone having the yozi's recruiters out and about....Especially since they break holy things just by looking at them(practically)
I am a big fan of Anhules but am already at the accepted limit of 3 demons, that isn't an entirely hard rule but.....It might be best of I bind it to serve another.....Anyone skilled in ride?...It could make a fun/interesting mount....! Mount of course would be a secondary function after incapacitation. For mounts the wasps have a clear advantage especially since they have one of the few easy teleports in the game....
My brother drove off with my book, but aren't Teodozijas the ones with the hive mind? Useful as they might be, I'm fully against anyone having the yozi's recruiters out and about....Especially since they break holy things just by looking at them(practically)
inirlan
Junior Member
Yeah, and they are the harder to con.
demihappycow
Junior Member
I think we might really be better off not trying for much in the way of mortal minions. Without a pretty serious focus on mass combat they are just gonna be stunt fodder for our opponents. If we get any sort of soldiers I think it should be archers, who can stay well out of anima flux range, so we don't all need to dump a bunch of XP into war stuff just to avoid slaughtering the basically irrelevant extras.
We can probably get away with using summoned demons for an awful lot of the close up stuff. Taking down the Anathema from a distance is gonna be safer anyway.
The things we need to have prepared are good coordinated attacks so we can consistently get through high DVs, the ability to toss out big nasty attacks/flurries anytime we manage to catch a Celestial not using a combo/PD, and good ways to keep each other from getting killed. I plan on grabbing Vengeful Gust Counterattack and Virtuous Negation Defense with the starting XP, which should help a bit with keeping everybody alive (so all you combat sorcerers should be really nice to Brother Shooting Stars).
Also, I will second the recommendation against summoning Teodozijia, though badass they are probably the most objectionable first circle demon you could summon (and words of power isn't all that effective anyway). Blood Apes and Tomescu are really the way to go for first circle combatants, I think. We don't want to rely on them too much though, as there is always the possibility of running into someone with a really good banishment spell.
Good, multi-layered, defenses are going to be very important to each of us. If you don't have an Ox-Body Technique yet, get it with the starting XP. Make sure you've got decent armor, and some way to get a respectable DV.
All that said, a lone Solar or Lunar is gonna be hard-pressed not to blow through all their essence inside of ten or fifteen ticks against this group, unless SRC stunts them like crazy. Besides which, against Solars at least we need to make sure we don't let them get too much persistent stuff up, so getting them down quick is important.
We can probably get away with using summoned demons for an awful lot of the close up stuff. Taking down the Anathema from a distance is gonna be safer anyway.
The things we need to have prepared are good coordinated attacks so we can consistently get through high DVs, the ability to toss out big nasty attacks/flurries anytime we manage to catch a Celestial not using a combo/PD, and good ways to keep each other from getting killed. I plan on grabbing Vengeful Gust Counterattack and Virtuous Negation Defense with the starting XP, which should help a bit with keeping everybody alive (so all you combat sorcerers should be really nice to Brother Shooting Stars).
Also, I will second the recommendation against summoning Teodozijia, though badass they are probably the most objectionable first circle demon you could summon (and words of power isn't all that effective anyway). Blood Apes and Tomescu are really the way to go for first circle combatants, I think. We don't want to rely on them too much though, as there is always the possibility of running into someone with a really good banishment spell.
Good, multi-layered, defenses are going to be very important to each of us. If you don't have an Ox-Body Technique yet, get it with the starting XP. Make sure you've got decent armor, and some way to get a respectable DV.
All that said, a lone Solar or Lunar is gonna be hard-pressed not to blow through all their essence inside of ten or fifteen ticks against this group, unless SRC stunts them like crazy. Besides which, against Solars at least we need to make sure we don't let them get too much persistent stuff up, so getting them down quick is important.
Red Shadow Claws
Six Thousand Club
Ok, let me tell you beforehand. Any Anathema you encounter will stunt like crazy, or try to, because frankly his life is on the line here, unless he's got a buddy ot two with him, but they'll still stunt.
Second, regarding the Comman background. I want anyone who takes it to say where are the soldiers coming from. not just to which organization they belong (house, military, mercenaries, etc.) but also where are they normally stationed. Also note thaqt while mortals are not counted as much by the Realm, losing lots and lots of elite soldiers under your command can tarnish your Bcking and Command, and while marching you will need to supply the troops when you are not within the Realm's area of influence.
Second, regarding the Comman background. I want anyone who takes it to say where are the soldiers coming from. not just to which organization they belong (house, military, mercenaries, etc.) but also where are they normally stationed. Also note thaqt while mortals are not counted as much by the Realm, losing lots and lots of elite soldiers under your command can tarnish your Bcking and Command, and while marching you will need to supply the troops when you are not within the Realm's area of influence.
cyl
Creepy smile
I humbly disagree, considering the possibilities for an anathema to have some backup of his own (followers, angry crowd, beasts, beastmen), a bunch of elite troopers is always a good backup to have, if not for fighting, at least for securing the area and the people around.
Safer but not necessarily more efficient, wether he has a mount, a spell or athletics charms, we will not have much chance of catching up with him once he starts moving.
Which is why the first thing we need before everything is an efficient mean of slowing him down / immobilizing him. This way we can kill him quicker.
This mean serious contact capability, which we actually lack.
We gotta expect essence 3-4 group of anathema, and maybe lone 5-6, straight nightmares... stunting, using charms, channelling virtues. The worst of all being of course deathknights...
I talked with SRC and he agreed on a few things for Yugo (Command, Retainers, Arsenal etc), so we are going to have some backup and some possibilities. Of course those men are not to be treated like cattle and we need to take care of them like we gotta watch each other backs.
About logistics, I think a sufficient level of Ressources (3 to 4) will be sufficient to deal with the logistics (I'm going to take Henchmen for lieutenants).
demihappycow
Junior Member
I don't think "serious contact capability" is gonna help. Things that slow them down aren't really going to hit, and if they do hit we can take them down anyway.
In serious Exalt vs Exalt combat perfect defenses screw over essentially any means we might have of slowing down an opponent. We might get lucky once in a while and run up against somebody who relies on soak charms or something, but by and large the assumption you have to run on is that anything we try is gonna get PDed away. The way Dragon Bloods can take down competent Solars and Lunars is by hitting them with so much so fast that they can't maintain their mote pools. Coming up with 20+ 2 die stunts inside of the first 5 ticks is awfully hard for one person, so forcing our opponents to do exactly that has to be our goal. Other than that you're hoping they screw up and allow a clinch or don't activate a combo or something.
At some point somebody (I plan to once we starting earning XP in play) should probably work toward being able to do surprise attacks consistently, so we can take down anybody who doesn't have a surprise negation charm comboed with a PD. A high stealth, relevant spec, and an excellency to manage against anybody it has any hope of working on at all.
You're probably right about having soldiers as backup, I was just thinking we probably don't really want to bother using them in actual fights with Anathema. They are still worth having, so long as we don't all need to activate Enfolded in the Dragon's Wings before every combat.
Also, I think you are overestimating their ability to run away from us. Spells are virtually a non-option once combat has started, any Anathema dumb enough to try to cast a spell mid-fight will a bunch of nasty ranged attacks chopping it to bits. That occasional Night Caste with Soaring Crane Leap and a PD comboed might be able to manage it, but otherwise between our own speed and skew toward ranged combat I think we'll be fine. The Fire Aspects might want to think about Bellows Pumping Stride at some point, and the rest of us might want to try to get a hold of some perfect boots or something, but beyond that we shouldn't have to worry too much.
If we try to go up against groups of essence 3/4 Anathema we're gonna get our butts kicked. Without massive XP and really hardcore min/maxing we can't take on groups of Anathema and hope to survive. Unless our opponents have really terrible charm spreads or something.
Finally, Deathknights are the easiest to take on, you just have to catch them outside of a shadowland. The only PD they get that doesn't take a willpower outside of a shadowland is their perfect soak, which makes them extremely clinchable and generally vulnerable to weird non-damage effects.
In serious Exalt vs Exalt combat perfect defenses screw over essentially any means we might have of slowing down an opponent. We might get lucky once in a while and run up against somebody who relies on soak charms or something, but by and large the assumption you have to run on is that anything we try is gonna get PDed away. The way Dragon Bloods can take down competent Solars and Lunars is by hitting them with so much so fast that they can't maintain their mote pools. Coming up with 20+ 2 die stunts inside of the first 5 ticks is awfully hard for one person, so forcing our opponents to do exactly that has to be our goal. Other than that you're hoping they screw up and allow a clinch or don't activate a combo or something.
At some point somebody (I plan to once we starting earning XP in play) should probably work toward being able to do surprise attacks consistently, so we can take down anybody who doesn't have a surprise negation charm comboed with a PD. A high stealth, relevant spec, and an excellency to manage against anybody it has any hope of working on at all.
You're probably right about having soldiers as backup, I was just thinking we probably don't really want to bother using them in actual fights with Anathema. They are still worth having, so long as we don't all need to activate Enfolded in the Dragon's Wings before every combat.
Also, I think you are overestimating their ability to run away from us. Spells are virtually a non-option once combat has started, any Anathema dumb enough to try to cast a spell mid-fight will a bunch of nasty ranged attacks chopping it to bits. That occasional Night Caste with Soaring Crane Leap and a PD comboed might be able to manage it, but otherwise between our own speed and skew toward ranged combat I think we'll be fine. The Fire Aspects might want to think about Bellows Pumping Stride at some point, and the rest of us might want to try to get a hold of some perfect boots or something, but beyond that we shouldn't have to worry too much.
If we try to go up against groups of essence 3/4 Anathema we're gonna get our butts kicked. Without massive XP and really hardcore min/maxing we can't take on groups of Anathema and hope to survive. Unless our opponents have really terrible charm spreads or something.
Finally, Deathknights are the easiest to take on, you just have to catch them outside of a shadowland. The only PD they get that doesn't take a willpower outside of a shadowland is their perfect soak, which makes them extremely clinchable and generally vulnerable to weird non-damage effects.
inirlan
Junior Member
And IN the case they run away... I didn't take hound of the five winds because it sounded cool.
Oh, and anyone interested on also going on the beauteous wasp? The rules say it can transport up to two armored men.
Oh, and anyone interested on also going on the beauteous wasp? The rules say it can transport up to two armored men.
Atrius Night
One Thousand Club
I'd volunteer, since I like the quick escape option....but....We probably shouldn't put all our sorcerers in one basket, so to speak....
inirlan
Junior Member
There is something i want to ask :
You can't attack an agatae without failing a compassion roll if it isn't attacking you or your intimacies. In the case that there is someone riding it while it flies, would someone have to roll the compassion to attack the rider(in a situation where due to the hight and angle there is at least a 50% chance at least to hit the agatae)?
You can't attack an agatae without failing a compassion roll if it isn't attacking you or your intimacies. In the case that there is someone riding it while it flies, would someone have to roll the compassion to attack the rider(in a situation where due to the hight and angle there is at least a 50% chance at least to hit the agatae)?
demihappycow
Junior Member
I don't think that would be an issue. For one thing virtually no one is ever gonna have a 50% chance to accidentally hit the Agatae. Even if you are getting a cover bonus to DV from riding, the mount is only hit if someone specifically tries to hit it. Outside of botches, or magical interference, that sort of thing just doesn't happen in Exalted.
inirlan
Junior Member
So if an enemy is straight under the flying agatae, he still wouldn't have to roll compassion to attack the rider, of which he could at best only see the feet?
demihappycow
Junior Member
I believe in that instance the above rider would have a +2 (+4 vs ranged) to DV from cover.
The rules don't say much other than that, though of course SRC may have a different opinion.
The rules don't say much other than that, though of course SRC may have a different opinion.
Red Shadow Claws
Six Thousand Club
I'll have to review the rules for that, but if it only grants you a DV bonus, and there's no chance to hit the mount bar charms, yeah, I'd say your enemies can shoot at you with relative impunity.
inirlan
Junior Member
And if you put yourself in a position where the mount gives 100% cover?(In this case i think the attacker would have to attack the mount, but you never know...)
cyl
Creepy smile
You must be joking... it's like the only time we can buy before the prey becomes the hunter. Even with our superior numbers, if we do not hold the anathema back from the casters, we do not stand a chance (and a flying demon is not necessarily the answer... my life would be on the line, I'd spend that wp to watch 2 casters take a deadly fall).
We need to force the target (S) in defense mode, as soon as we can, and if we have more than 2 opponents we will not be able to do so. Jihn is the only skilled contact fighter we have, I can manage to hit some, but I am far less dangerous than he is...
Our troops are useless againste experienced exalted, so we really need 2-3 demonic tanks to taunt the target from the true danger: the guys with serious dps ^^ :lol:
This is true when they fight a young solar, but when fighting a more experienced solar, you can bet he has at least a penalty nullifier, if not a scene long, if he has essence flow and keeps stunting, he is going to be at +2/4 DV...
Lunar are going to be easier, but Solars with 4 defensive charms are already a plague for celestials.
It's not about hitting hard and fast, it's about hitting precisely with minimum losses to drain the opponent strength slowly but surely.
The role of the contact fighters is double:
- keeping the target off the casters/archers
- wound the target a bit to facilitate the use of ranged attacks / spells
We could manage a single experienced solar with a bit of luck... maybe, but certainly not 2, and probably no more than 3 young celestials with a caster among them.
Tikor
One Thousand Club
Seems like what you want, cyl, is a 'tank' figure with those Presence Charms that (UMI?) a target to come after them.
I've found in practice that Essence Flow eats one's mote pools at a horrendous rate. Infinite Ability Mastery is scarier from where I sit, and if he's using that we're draining his WP, or keeping him out of perfect land. I'm OK with any of these options, but they demand different tactics:
Essence Flow: Many attacks quickly, make him burn the motes.
Infinite Ability Mastery + combo: Survive, attack sparingly. Make him burn his WP activating combos. Throw things that require WP to nullify at him.
Infinite Ability Master without combo: Many attacks quickly, one or two will get through.
I've found in practice that Essence Flow eats one's mote pools at a horrendous rate. Infinite Ability Mastery is scarier from where I sit, and if he's using that we're draining his WP, or keeping him out of perfect land. I'm OK with any of these options, but they demand different tactics:
Essence Flow: Many attacks quickly, make him burn the motes.
Infinite Ability Mastery + combo: Survive, attack sparingly. Make him burn his WP activating combos. Throw things that require WP to nullify at him.
Infinite Ability Master without combo: Many attacks quickly, one or two will get through.
cyl
Creepy smile
You forgot one thing: stunt = 2 to 4 motes regen...
So when you have a scene long defense launched... you can get for free without charm use up to +3 or 4 DV (excellency + stunt bonus). You then have the liberty of using your motes otherwise, for attack or movement.
This is impossible with Mastery, since you still need to use an excellency as a charm.
Now I don't know how SRC is going to handle multiple opponents, but stunting can either be for a whole action, or it can be one stunt per attacker (regardless of his number of attacks)... one is advantageous for us, the other absolutely not.
Let's picture a solid solar target with a DV around 8 (easily done), a good defensive combo allowing him to PD / defend himself efficiently + launch his scene long... on his next action, the target will ignore most penalties (depending on if he uses FLB or 5BS...) and can rely on this (Essence Flow + stunt) technique to get his DV up to 11 / 12... Calculate our chances of hitting him with spells. :evil:
Lunars can be drained easily, they don't have essence flow so they can't use this technique (though stunting still works).
With solars: sorcerers are not necessarily a problem, fighters truly can become one when alone, now picture two of them...
What I want is people being able to hold the targets off and face them long enough and wound them a bit so we can drain their pools slowly but surely.
So when you have a scene long defense launched... you can get for free without charm use up to +3 or 4 DV (excellency + stunt bonus). You then have the liberty of using your motes otherwise, for attack or movement.
This is impossible with Mastery, since you still need to use an excellency as a charm.
Now I don't know how SRC is going to handle multiple opponents, but stunting can either be for a whole action, or it can be one stunt per attacker (regardless of his number of attacks)... one is advantageous for us, the other absolutely not.
Let's picture a solid solar target with a DV around 8 (easily done), a good defensive combo allowing him to PD / defend himself efficiently + launch his scene long... on his next action, the target will ignore most penalties (depending on if he uses FLB or 5BS...) and can rely on this (Essence Flow + stunt) technique to get his DV up to 11 / 12... Calculate our chances of hitting him with spells. :evil:
Lunars can be drained easily, they don't have essence flow so they can't use this technique (though stunting still works).
With solars: sorcerers are not necessarily a problem, fighters truly can become one when alone, now picture two of them...
What I want is people being able to hold the targets off and face them long enough and wound them a bit so we can drain their pools slowly but surely.
inirlan
Junior Member
So according to you, at least half of use will have to restart with a new character sheet after the first scenario. You are the most optimistic person i have ever met. I think you will actually achieve that we will have reserve characters in case our current one dies BEFORE we even start the game.
This is not meant to offend you in any way! I just think that if you continue like this, odds are that you will give the ST ideas he wouldn't have come up with on his own.
This is not meant to offend you in any way! I just think that if you continue like this, odds are that you will give the ST ideas he wouldn't have come up with on his own.
cyl
Creepy smile
:mrgreen:
No I am not saying we should reroll characters, I am saying: we are going after celestials, they are powerful, quick, hard to hit, have more motes than we do and have charms we do not have.
We do not play on equal ground, and our numbers won't probably mean squat to them... this doesn't mean they will kill us, only that we are going to have a hard time killing them and we need good tactics.
Prepare for the worst and hope the best, this is my motto :roll:
But any serious solar opponent (essence 4) is probably going to be able to use the technique above mentionned, this is why we need more close contact efficiency IMHO.
No I am not saying we should reroll characters, I am saying: we are going after celestials, they are powerful, quick, hard to hit, have more motes than we do and have charms we do not have.
We do not play on equal ground, and our numbers won't probably mean squat to them... this doesn't mean they will kill us, only that we are going to have a hard time killing them and we need good tactics.
Prepare for the worst and hope the best, this is my motto :roll:
But any serious solar opponent (essence 4) is probably going to be able to use the technique above mentionned, this is why we need more close contact efficiency IMHO.
cyl
Creepy smile
Oh I am sure the ST is quite capable of finding something more horrifying for us if he really wants to.inirlan said:
This is one of my basic "worst case scenario" to work on and demonstrate that we need guys with high attack pools sticking to the target (s).
As I said, lunars are not going to be that much of a problem, we can get to them, solars however, different tune.
Red Shadow Claws
Six Thousand Club
Don't worry guys, while I do see minor ideas here, some of my ideas are worse than that. :twisted:
demihappycow
Junior Member
I'm still not sure why you think close contact capability is going to be any more effective than good ranged attacks.
Being in a close up fight does not in any way restrict someone's movement or ability to go after our casters. This isn't D&D, we don't get attacks of opportunity. If some bad ass with a sword is between you and your target you jump over him and go after whoever you want anyway. If we run up against someone dumb enough to let a clinch happen we get to slaughter them, but we don't really need to work on special tactics in that instance.
A slow and steady approach is virtual suicide for us. Between large mote pools, persistent defenses, and cheap perfects a long fight with a Solar is going to go poorly. Attempting a slow drain is just gonna give them more chance to stunt their mote pools back up, or use actual mote regen charms if they have them in a combo. We need to take down any strong Solar opponents before they get a chance to get up all their awesome scene-long charms. Lunars are a little easier, but they can still pay for their perfect dodge with a 2 die stunt.
One of the biggest advantages DBs gave is free reflexives. That means we need little to nothing in the way of combos, and we can still throw out big nasty attacks. The longer the fight goes on the worse off we are.
Against multiple experienced celestial level Exalts the only rational tactic we can utilize is calling in back up or trying to catch them when they are separated. That kinda thing is the job for large teams of essence 6 immaculates, and also the reason the Wyld Hunt is screwed in the long term.
As far as keeping our casters safe, we've actually got all sorts of options there. Vengeful Gust Counterattack, Virtuous Negation Defense, Dragonfly Finds Mate, and various sharable buffs to name a few (and there are more options than that). More dudes with Daiklaives isn't gonna significantly improve our tactical options on that front.
Being in a close up fight does not in any way restrict someone's movement or ability to go after our casters. This isn't D&D, we don't get attacks of opportunity. If some bad ass with a sword is between you and your target you jump over him and go after whoever you want anyway. If we run up against someone dumb enough to let a clinch happen we get to slaughter them, but we don't really need to work on special tactics in that instance.
A slow and steady approach is virtual suicide for us. Between large mote pools, persistent defenses, and cheap perfects a long fight with a Solar is going to go poorly. Attempting a slow drain is just gonna give them more chance to stunt their mote pools back up, or use actual mote regen charms if they have them in a combo. We need to take down any strong Solar opponents before they get a chance to get up all their awesome scene-long charms. Lunars are a little easier, but they can still pay for their perfect dodge with a 2 die stunt.
One of the biggest advantages DBs gave is free reflexives. That means we need little to nothing in the way of combos, and we can still throw out big nasty attacks. The longer the fight goes on the worse off we are.
Against multiple experienced celestial level Exalts the only rational tactic we can utilize is calling in back up or trying to catch them when they are separated. That kinda thing is the job for large teams of essence 6 immaculates, and also the reason the Wyld Hunt is screwed in the long term.
As far as keeping our casters safe, we've actually got all sorts of options there. Vengeful Gust Counterattack, Virtuous Negation Defense, Dragonfly Finds Mate, and various sharable buffs to name a few (and there are more options than that). More dudes with Daiklaives isn't gonna significantly improve our tactical options on that front.
cyl
Creepy smile
Of course it does, you can't dash or jump when you got two guys in contact range ready to strike you with their full strength using your -2DV.
Movement plays a tactical role as terrain does (goddam, should've made an earth bender !!!).
Ranged attacks are not that efficient when fighting in close quarters for example.
An Ifrit or a Jokun is always good help in those situation.
By slow and steady I meant : avoiding multiple attacks. One big hit can prove to be more efficient than several little in this case... depends highly on the circumstances though.
It was naturally implied that should we catch a target off guard we go all in full strength. :twisted:
We will see what will be our first targets, but I guess we should have different already planned strategy for stereotypical situation (example: if we deal with a sorcerer: who's going to guard to be able to launch the counterspell... those sort of things).
