Fantasy The Land of Lynthia

[DrBones]

So, instead of going for the (relatively) logical option, you go for something completely batshit impractical that wouldn't work in any sane reality?


The sight of a wolf wearing a plated harness isn't any more ridiculous than the sight of a wolf standing up on its hind legs and firing its crossbow shoes. In fact, there's plenty of historical precedent for canines being decked in armor. Wardogs have been traditionally well-armored since people had armor.

 

[Boomrocker]

I thought about giving him armor, but have you tried to imagine what that would look like? An armored dog looks ridiculous.
Magic would be too easy. Everyone and their grandmother can beat supervillains with magic.

You appear to think that looking good is more important than being effective in a battle.


You are playing a wolf. In order to be effective, you need to play to the strengths of a wolf and cover up its shortcomings. The primary shortcoming is not "I cannot hit from range". That is irrelevant, since as explained previously a wolf's native speed enables it to get close to an enemy faster than it would take to load, aim and fire paw-mounted crossbows.


Your main problem is "anything behind Fang's teeth is vulnerable". Armor would rectify this. If you can think of a viable alternative that is not armor, I am all ears.

 

[KatsaNovari]

Aaaaaaand there goes my character lol


You're probably thinking of bulky armor for Fang, but I'm sure it can be designed to look stylish on him while allowing him some mobility. In most fantasy worlds, with Tolkien's being the most popular and realistic, I think, elves had accomplished this.


For weapons, I was also thinking perhaps he has two blades hooked to either side of his forelegs. If any of you have played Pokemon, you can think of Grovyle as I explain this. The blades would go from the "wrist" of his paws up onto the "elbow", with the point going up a little past it. They'd be at the side of his legs, he won't really be able to manuevar them like a human can with a sword, but if he uses his speed, he can dash by enemies and cut them as he goes.


I hope that made sense.

 

[Thinslayer]

You appear to think that looking good is more important than being effective in a battle.

You know, that was cheap. That was really cheap. I think nothing of the sort. In fact, I found that comment downright insulting. Apologize.

 

[Boomrocker]

I think nothing of the sort.

I thought about giving him armor, but have you tried to imagine what that would look like? An armored dog looks ridiculous.

Please explain.

 

[Thinslayer]

"You appear to think that looking good is more important than being effective in battle."


There are ways to be effective in battle that don't involve looking like someone's dress-up toy. I want to find those ways. I want to be effective in battle in a way that doesn't make my character look dumb.


That I want to be both effective and good-looking should have been obvious to you.

 

[Boomrocker]

"You appear to think that looking good is more important than being effective in battle."
There are ways to be effective in battle that don't involve looking like someone's dress-up toy. I want to find those ways. I want to be effective in battle in a way that doesn't make my character look dumb.


That I want to be both effective and good-looking should have been obvious to you.

Need I remind you that you are literally typing words on a page? In contrast to effectiveness, how good something looks is simply how you describe it.


If you are unable to describe it and need an example, refer to the below image of an armored wolf that is both effective and stylish.

 

[Thinslayer]

Some possibilities for a cool-looking armored wolf:


http://i419.photobucket.com/albums/pp272/westbrooke1025/EW-Earthcopy.jpg


http://cdn.infectedbyart.com/images/Contest/15/1403140152241.jpg


http://i419.photobucket.com/albums/pp272/westbrooke1025/EW-Windcopy.jpg


Just noticed your sample pic. I like it.


See, that would have been a much better way to respond than to criticize me for wanting to look cool.

 

[DrBones]

It's a good bit easier to make an armored wolf sound intimidating and dangerous than it is to describe a wolf operating a crossbow in a way that doesn't sound completely ridiculous and ineffective.


If appearance and effectiveness are what you're looking for, I would definitely go for the armor. Wolves don't need ranged weaponry.

 

[Boomrocker]

Some possibilities for a cool-looking armored wolf:
http://i419.photobucket.com/albums/pp272/westbrooke1025/EW-Earthcopy.jpg


http://cdn.infectedbyart.com/images/Contest/15/1403140152241.jpg


http://i419.photobucket.com/albums/pp272/westbrooke1025/EW-Windcopy.jpg


Just noticed your sample pic. I like it.


See, that would have been a much better way to respond than to criticize me for wanting to look cool.

Then I would advise against suggesting that a 'cool' appearance is your primary aim, nor demanding apologies from those who observe and point it out as such. Not everyone is able to divine true meaning from unclear text.


Consider it something to keep in mind for the future.

 

[Thinslayer]

You did NOT, in fact, observe that looking cool was my primary aim. You misunderstood what I said and replied with something I found insulting.


You were wrong, and I was hurt by it.


 
Just because I stated a desire to look cool doesn't mean that was my only desire. For all you know, it could have been in a long list of desires. It was a design element, true, but not the primary one. The driving design factor was making Fang BE cool. Deep voice, knightly attitude, neat equipment, unique personality, Fang is designed to be cool. I didn't create Fang because I like playing wolf characters. Heck, I usually HATE playing animal characters. The only reason I wanted to play Fang is because his character concept was just too cool to pass up.


Looking cool is only *part* of the bargain.

 

[DrBones]

Just because I stated a desire to look cool doesn't mean that was my only desire. The driving design factor was making Fang BE cool. Deep voice, knightly attitude, neat equipment, unique personality, Fang is designed to be cool. The only reason I wanted to play Fang is because his character concept was just too cool to pass up.
Looking cool is only *part* of the bargain.

Uh, that kinda translates into "I want my character to look cool and I designed him to look cool and I'm only playing him because he looks cool". Every thing about what you just said is about how cool you want Fang to look. That is pretty much proving @Boomrocker's point that you're looking for coolness over effectiveness correct. If something was effective but not cool (like armor that you don't like the look of), you don't use it. If something was cool but not effective (like those tiny repeating crossbows), you do use it.


This is just something I've gathered from what I'm reading here.


I think "looking cool" was the primary goal here.

 

[Thinslayer]

@DrBones


*facepalm*


It doesn't prove I want coolness over effectiveness. Effectiveness IS cool. If Fang isn't effective, he's not cool. Ineffectiveness is very UNcool.

 

[KatsaNovari]

I'm going to step in here again and say we ought to be more careful with our choice of words. I want to remind everyone this is suppose to be a lighthearted RP where everyone should be having fun and utilizing teamwork. The latter is being done effectively by everyone giving ideas and suggestions. But can we please refrain from insulting one another? To you, it may not seem like you are, and you're simply stating what you believe to be fact, but that doesn't lighten the blow any regardless if your right or not. Thinslayer is listening to everyones suggestions and complying, while giving his own perspective and what he prefers. Can we please respect that and be more careful with how you word things?


I lost two members, TWO, because of this sort of behavior and misunderstanding, one of which you all know is Yonsisac. I don't want to lose another for the same thing because being considerate is, apparently, below everyone.

 

[Zerohex]

Okay no, your post very very clearly stated, and I quote, "I thought about giving him armor, but have you tried to imagine what that would look like? An armored dog looks ridiculous". This outright states that armor is out of the picture because you think it doesn't look cool. There is no interpetation to be made here. You were given reasons why armor would be a superior choice to weapons your character needs magic to carry around, let alone operate, and you shot it down because "an armored dog looks ridiculous". It is right there, there's no two ways about it.


As an aside, I'm heartily amused that anyone would get as insulted by the implication that they want to look cool when it's pretty much what forum roleplaying runs on, along with other fine institutions like professional wrestling or getting tattoos you'll regret in a few years.

 

[Boomrocker]

You did NOT, in fact, observe

Observe: To see, watch, perceive, or notice. (Source: Dictionary.com)


Your statement is factually incorrect.


Regardless, I will not criticize you on your choice of character, as it is entirely your prerogative. However...

For all you know, it could have been in a long list of desires.

This is a particularly interesting sentence, as it highlights the entire problem in a nutshell. 'For all you know' is a dangerous phrase. Indeed, I don't know, which is a problem. The only information I have to work with is that which is written down, of which the following is a very key part:

I thought about giving him armor, but have you tried to imagine what that would look like? An armored dog looks ridiculous.

You see my conundrum.


Now,

I'm going to step in here again and say we ought to be more careful with our choice of words. I want to remind everyone this is suppose to be a lighthearted RP where everyone should be having fun and utilizing teamwork. The latter is being done effectively by everyone giving ideas and suggestions. But can we please refrain from insulting one another? To you, it may not seem like you are, and you're simply stating what you believe to be fact, but that doesn't lighten the blow any regardless if your right or not. Thinslayer is listening to everyones suggestions and complying, while giving his own perspective and what he prefers. Can we please respect that and be more careful with how you word things?
I lost two members, TWO, because of this sort of behavior and misunderstanding, one of which you all know is Yonsisac. I don't want to lose another for the same thing because being considerate is, apparently, below everyone.

I understand and agree, but I am not the only one that needs to keep this in mind. My position here is to aid in clarity and understanding. I cannot do this when pointing out inconsistencies in an attempt to rectify the issue results in hurt feelings.

 

[Thinslayer]

@Zerohex


I wasn't insulted by the claim that I want to look cool. I was insulted by the claim that it was more important to me than effectiveness.


Let me put this in perspective. This is a fantasy game. Realism is not the primary concern in a fantasy game. That knight dude (Ajax?) wears armor all the time. Is it effective? No! It's hot and heavy. If we're being realistic, he'd travel everywhere by horse, and I don't see him with a horse. The armor makes him look tough. He looks *cool* in armor, despite that it wouldn't realistically be effective. Is that bad? No! This is a fantasy game. Screw realism.


Or that dwarf character. He has a long beard. Is that effective? No! Enemies can pull on it and use it against him. If you're being 'effective', he'd cut the beard off. But can you imagine a beardless dwarf? The beard makes him look *cool*, despite its lack of effectiveness. Is that bad? No! This is a fantasy game. Screw realism.


But once Thinslayer decides he wants to look cool too? The shock! The horror! We can't have that! Becuz realism!


Why can't I let my character look cool if I want? Why do I have to sacrifice coolness to be effective? Why can't I have both?


 
@Boomrocker


I said I wanted Fang to look cool. I didn't say what else I wanted. The fact that I *did't* say what else I wanted means you CANNOT assume that I DON'T want effectiveness. You assumed I didn't care about effectiveness. Your assumption was factually incorrect. Hence, you didn't "point out" anything. You observed wrong.


 
Criticizing a desire to look cool over effectiveness is cheap for two reasons:


*This is a fantasy game. Effectiveness can only be properly measured in a realistic setting.


*Coolness and effectiveness are not mutually exclusive.


Effectiveness is equated with rationality. To claim that I do not value effectiveness is to suggest that I am irrational, or stupid. That's where the hurt came from.

 

[KatsaNovari]

@Boomrocker


While I see your point, Thinslayer is being ganged up by at least three people who are basically telling him the same thing. When having a discussion, by all means, point out flaws or the lack of information provided. But it should be discussed between at least two people, so no one is being gained up on. The only time it should include more is if the two cannot resolve the issue themselves and need the opinion of others, WITHOUT stating things that could potentionally hurt feelings. I've discussed this with Jipan, stating the truth doesn't mean you have to be an ass about it.


From this point on, can this please be discussed by Boomrocker, who brought up the use of armor in the first place, and Thinslayer? As well as drop the discussion of what Thin prefers more, effectiveness or coolness, because that's not getting us anywhere and the point has been made.


 
Quick clarification: I'm acknowledging everyone in regards to "being an ass" and "being insulting with their words", not just one side or one specific person. The blame is falling on everyone right now, and it's only getting worse because no one seems to be acknowledging it until now.

 

[Zerohex]

Okay so, just to be clear here, you do realize that your only expressed thoughts in this here forum where we can read them and reply have been "well I don't want armor because I think it looks ridiculous despite it being a good idea". This colors every interaction that came after. You actively shot down an idea that would be extremely sensical and effective and fit with a character because you thought it'd look ridiculous.


At the same time, you want to keep weapons that look extremely silly, are terribly impractical and require magic to carry and operate by coming up with ridiculous ways to try and use them. Even Katsa had to step in and say that no, your character having to stand on its forelegs and operate them much like a human would can't really fly here.


Ajax is my character, he's extremely muscular and walks around in a robe, he's also fantastically, ridiculously strong and tough, because I used the given magical superpower slot for it. The armored guy is Boomrocker's character, Riese Vatar. Armor was indeed hot and heavy, but not so much so that you had to go on a horse everywhere with it. This is akin to the myth that knights had to be mounted with cranes, they were not, in fact the modern US military loadout weighs more and is less evenly distributed across the body than a set of plate armor. And plate armor is, in fact, very logically effective at stopping attacks, it's actual purpose. In fact the higher quality stuff could deflect early firearm shots unless fired at extremely close ranges.


A beard is a physical feature that happens in real life, and one that was worn by many men across ages despite their involvement in combat be it for sport or in a military context. It is also, you know, a dwarven racial trait rather than rejecting armor over crossbow gauntlets that you yourself are unable to properly explain how your character operates without giving your wolf very un-wolflike joints. This is why one of the given solutions was "make up some sort of mutant wolf species with humanlike digits and joints", because then yeah it's bizarre but it makes sense because it's not a regular wolf, is it.


Also, you seem extremely insulted at me about claims of coolness vs realism when I'm the guy saying that, you know what, cool factor is a given. The thing, however, is that cool factor isn't just a way to handwave things away. There needs to be some level of internal consistency. Armor deflects attacks because it's what it's built to do, was not in fact that stifling and looking cool was an aside. Normal wolves, an animal that exists in real life, cannot properly operate crossbows because their forelegs just don't work that way.


And speaking of internal consistency, you bounce between being terribly insulted someone would dare to suggest you put a premium on looking cool to being angry people would tell you to stop trying to look cool, which no one actually has, we've gone from being confused over how in the crap a wolf operates a crossbow to suggesting solutions that you've shot down because they either involve magic despite your character needing magic to even exist, or because "An armored dog looks ridiculous". This is, again, a direct quote of yours over why you don't want armor despite acknowledging how it'd be effective and reasonable and fit the character.


And Katsa, I know you said for this argument to be between Boomrocker and Thinslayer while I was writing the post, but I was directly adressed just before. And as a quick aside, people going "well hey this is kind of nonsensical" or "no man this is how you're coming across" is hardly being ganged up on, and perhaps if three different people take the time to tell you these things in a fairly non-offensive way, even if it was stated matter of factly, then there's something to it after all. And yes, I'm going with non-offensive way, because "well I think you're just trying to look cool" is hardly offensive.

 

[Thinslayer]

@Zerohex


Before you say another word, I want you to repeat back to me what it is I'm trying to tell you. I refuse to argue with someone who insists on misrepresenting me.

 

[KatsaNovari]

@Zerohex


I'm not deleting your post because you were acknowledged.


However, I ask from this point on, everyone, and I mean everyone, refrain from replying to this matter specifically. And as I stated before, the topic on whether or not Thin preferred coolness over effectiveness has been made and is irrelevent in the scheme of things. Besides, Thin did say he liked the picture Boomrocker had provided. If these two could now discuss this without further distractions or, again, have things pointed out that have already been said, it would be very much appreciated.


Also, when I use the phrase "being ganged up on", it's in terms of people who disagree with one person and state their opinions at them on why they disagree. Even if you don't consider that as "being ganged up on", it is a close equilavent to me because it elicits the same emotions as one may get if they really were being ganged up on.

 

[Boomrocker]

Before you say another word, I want you to repeat back to me what it is I'm trying to tell you. I refuse to argue with someone who insists on misrepresenting me.

Zerohex is not the only one who needs to keep this in mind. Now, on to business.

I said I wanted Fang to look cool. I didn't say what else I wanted. The fact that I *did't* say what else I wanted means you CANNOT assume that I DON'T want effectiveness. You assumed I didn't care about effectiveness. Your assumption was factually incorrect. Hence, you didn't "point out" anything. You observed wrong.

Au contraire. It is quite impossible to make an inference on that which is unknown to me. From your initial statement I can logically assume that, since looking cool was placed in favour of effectiveness, it was clearly the top priority.


Let us briefly run through the process. Your initial response to my suggestion for effectiveness was "It looks ridiculous". I pointed out that since you rejected an effective answer due to appearance, clearly looking good was more important than effectiveness. A logical answer. Then I was immediately told I was insulting. At this point, no effort had been made to correct me.


Following on from this was what I can graciously call 'backpedalling' where you began to imply that effectiveness was just as important as appearance, if not more. This conflicts with your original statement entirely, but your original statement was never recanted. In fact, further statements have done a strange combination of both denying and reinforcing it until we have reached this point.

Effectiveness is equated with rationality. To claim that I do not value effectiveness is to suggest that I am irrational, or stupid. That's where the hurt came from.

You have assumed that I have called you irrational or stupid because I inferred that you did not value effectiveness. Setting aside the leaps in logic required to achieve this conclusion, once again, I can only interpret what is written on the page. As specified and proven many times previously, what was written was "Appearance > Effectiveness".


Might I quickly point out that prior to your declaration of hurt feelings no effort was made to correct my perceived misinterpretation.


This brings me to another point, and it has to do with 'hurt feelings'. In order for you to be insulted, you have assumed that I possessed information that contradicted what you had written on the page. In order to glean an insult out of this observation of mine, you would have had to be figuratively putting words in my mouth. This is an inference I have made backed up by your many comments on my supposedly incorrect observation.


Were I the type to be insulted on an internet forum, I would be grievously insulted by this. However, at the core this is a debate over phrasing and intention and as such I know it is not your intention to insult me.


Finally, all is not lost. Now that I'm done with my long-winded tirade, I will give you some advice. Take some time and get to know your character. I don't mean fifteen minutes, I mean set aside at least two hours. To play a character is a commitment. To play it believably requires astonishing levels of understanding of it the more fantastical it is. Wisdom is realizing that there is always more to understand. If you are playing as a wolf, then you need to understand the strengths and weaknesses of a wolf, what they can and can't do, how they best operate, and then you can learn how far to push the boundaries without either handicapping yourself unnecessarily or coming off as ridiculous. For example, I play unpowered humans often because, well, I am an unpowered human. Whenever I deviate from this simple rule, I be sure to learn the setting intimately and learn absolutely what my character can and cannot do. This often results in taking up to an entire day to work out a character sheet, but in the end I result in a consistent character that possesses balanced skills, acceptable weaknesses, and a suitably believable personality to match. That is also why my in character posts are so drastically different from my out of character ones. It is something to keep in mind.


As an example, Riese Vatar is truly hot and sweaty under his armor, but he has trained in it for long periods of time so hot and sweaty is his normal state. Which reminds me, perhaps I should place something in his character page about his stench, as it would be only logical that he smells bad. Look, more understanding.


 
As a quick addendum, I also want to point out that I have no objection with anyone making a 'cool' character, but I have always considered more believable characters to be far better and I respect those who attempt this immeasurably. If the armor does not look cool, and the wolf says something like "I know, it's dorky, but it helps me do the job," then I will respect that significantly more than a paragraph about how it glints in the sun and makes rainbows and is gorgeous and so on.

 

[Thinslayer]

@Boomrocker


Now you're just being condescending. I've actually played this character several times before, just not with these physical characteristics. His original concept was a magical black panther-like creature called Sir Snarble. A cloak of manifest shadow made him invulnerable to conventional attacks. Naturally, such a character is overpowered for this game, so I redesigned his physical characteristics.


For the sake of @KatsaNovari , I'll refrain from addressing your other points. Do you at least understand why I was hurt?

 

[Boomrocker]

Do you at least understand why I was hurt?

No. Your inability to perceive, let alone understand the possibility that you may be incorrect does you no credit. As does your reliance on, "I'm offended, making me the victor". That is truly the worst part of it all.


In addition, attempting to invoke the name of our very-patient GM to avoid a logical debate is unbecoming of you.


EDIT: Disregard what was previously here for the moment, please. I give you one more chance, @Thinslayer, to address my concerns in a mature manner.

 

[Thinslayer]

@Boomrocker


Ugh, dude, I was prepared to *hand* you the victory if you had just put in the effort to understand me. I was even drafting an apology in my head until your most recent comments were posted.