Sorcery and the Yozis

[Zaramis]

5. Primordials backstabbed other primordials. The Exalted weren't just helped by Autochton and Gaia, there was a very real war in heaven, so to speak, between Primordials. The Exalted were pawns in the greater scheme of things, and there are unknown primordials still out there, directing the Gods and their chosen, the Exalted.


I just got that idea, hm.

 

[Persell]

While all of these are viable in non canon games, none of these are convincing when taking just canon into consideration.


Primodials have acted in the war, in their full might, kimberry comes to mind first and several others. Nothing suggested it was the actions of slow being or those unable to bring their full powers to bear. And canon states that it was a loss for the primodials, the writeup of the ebon dragon is quite clear about it, and I actually like the part "he will never really break free, but might very well doom creation while trying".


So, to come back to the point, I'd like to add


6. The primodials crafted creation as a refuge from the unshaped beings of the wyld, they gave it natural laws maintained by gods and while they have great powers as they are the creators/programmers of the whole thing, they have to limit themselves to things the laws of creation actually allow not to doom creation while trying some new cool power. Kind of like the machines in matrix. Exalted beat them, because they used charms and didn't play by the rules, charms do not use those thaumaturgical protocolcs, they just bypass them and so the exalted won.


Meh, I really only repeated what wordman already said.

 

[Zaramis]

Sounds fair enough

 

[Arthur]

5. Primordials backstabbed other primordials. The Exalted weren't just helped by Autochton and Gaia, there was a very real war in heaven, so to speak, between Primordials. The Exalted were pawns in the greater scheme of things, and there are unknown primordials still out there, directing the Gods and their chosen, the Exalted.
I just got that idea, hm.

That one sounded the more likely to me.

 

[Quchu]

A variant of the last: if you buy my puzzle box theory of the evolution of primordials, you could take it a step further and say that the whole point of the war, even Creation itself, was a plot by Malfeas to encase the other primordials within itself, as the next stage of his evolution. (That is, if seven second circles make a third, and many thirds make a primordial, what do many primordials make?)

Maybe Malfeas is a component soul of an entity named Creation.


Or actually, maybe these Primordial realms are component-soul equivalents of Creation. Through the Primordial War you got Malfeas, with Autocthon's refugee you got Autochthonia... Just a few more Primordial realms and you get a next level of consciousness? Something?

 

[Persell]

Okay, probably a stupid question, but what are Gaia's component souls? The 5 Elemental Dragons and all the various elementals, or does she not have component souls like the Yozi? And what are Autochton's component souls? I'm not sure I've ever come across it being mentioned in canon.

 

[Quchu]

Autochthon's Third Circle Soul equivalents are his Sub-Gods, the Fetich being the Godhead (If I remember correctly.) Gaia though, I don't think it's been ever mentioned. People suggested that the Five Elemental Dragons are her component souls, but nothing definitive was said.

 

[Persell]

5. Primordials backstabbed other primordials. The Exalted weren't just helped by Autochton and Gaia, there was a very real war in heaven, so to speak, between Primordials. The Exalted were pawns in the greater scheme of things, and there are unknown primordials still out there, directing the Gods and their chosen, the Exalted.

I saw some other site that gave an idea on why the Neverborn were also called Malfeans while Malfeas is the city of trapped Yozis.  Perhaps the reason why they were called Malfeans was because Malfeas had joined the Exalted and allied with them during the Primordial War.  The Exalted would wither them down while Malfeas would strike the killing blow, which is why they are termed Malfeans - those betrayed and killed by Malfeas.  Malfeas was then betrayed by the Exalted and forced to surrender, and in a cruel twist of fate was made the prison and was forced to hold in all the Primordials he turned traitor to.

 

[Vanman]

Autochthon's Third Circle Soul equivalents are his Sub-Gods' date=' the Fetich being the Godhead (If I remember correctly.) Gaia though, I don't think it's been ever mentioned. People suggested that the Five Elemental Dragons are her component souls, but nothing definitive was said.[/quote']
P. 29 of the corebook says that the Five Elemental Dragons are Gaia's offspring. Not her component souls. But that seems a bit odd, because nowhere else does it say that a Primordial has offspring. It's always component souls. It could be this was a holdover from an earlier version of the world or the crack WW editing team at its finest. That may be why people think the Dragons are Gaia's component souls.

 

[wordman]

Okay' date=' probably a stupid question, but what are Gaia's component souls?[/quote']
Some theories.

 

[Flagg]

The 1E Autochthonians book heavily suggests that the 5 Elemental Dragons are Gaia's sub-souls, much as the Subgods are Auto's.

 

[Cthulhu_Wakes]

Autochthon's Third Circle Soul equivalents are his Sub-Gods' date=' the Fetich being the Godhead (If I remember correctly.) Gaia though, I don't think it's been ever mentioned. People suggested that the Five Elemental Dragons are her component souls, but nothing definitive was said.[/quote']
P. 29 of the corebook says that the Five Elemental Dragons are Gaia's offspring. Not her component souls. But that seems a bit odd, because nowhere else does it say that a Primordial has offspring. It's always component souls. It could be this was a holdover from an earlier version of the world or the crack WW editing team at its finest. That may be why people think the Dragons are Gaia's component souls.

Dunno, the earth mother having offspring of some sort kinda fits. Hell, some of those 'dark gods' in the Underdark with the Mountain Folk might be the bastard children of another Primordial. *shrug*

 

[Vanman]

Dunno' date=' the earth mother having offspring of some sort kinda fits. Hell, some of those 'dark gods' in the Underdark with the Mountain Folk might be the bastard children of another Primordial. *shrug*[/quote']
I'm not saying it doesn't fit. What I'm saying is the example of the Five Elemental Dragons is the first - and, as far as I can tell, the last - time it's ever mentioned that the Primordials had offspring. Or the possibility of having offspring. Every other time a Primordial has been talked about, it's always been component souls. At least canonically. As you say, if any Primordial is going to have offspring, it's going to be Gaia. But it does seem anomalous. That's all I'm saying.

 

[Persell]

The 1E Autochthonians book heavily suggests that the 5 Elemental Dragons are Gaia's sub-souls, much as the Subgods are Auto's.

Yeah, but then the author of the autochton book thought you could craft hungry ghosts into soulsteel, too. He was rather clueless.

 

[Quchu]

I wasn't aware that a single flaw by one writer falsifies an entire book written by multiple people. o_o


By the way, what exactly is this "Darkbrood" jibba jabba you folk are talking about anyway? It was never clear to me.

 

[Cthulhu_Wakes]

Safim's opinions are on either extreme. Either asshat or assdickery.

 

[Flagg]

Yeah, but then the author of the autochton book thought you could craft hungry ghosts into soulsteel, too. He was rather clueless.

There wasn't one author. The sections may or may not have been written by the same person.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

Actually, there is -one- other place where they mention offspring, rather than component souls...


"On occasion, Adorjan [the Silent Wind] distills her essence down to the shape of a woman... It is in this form that she lay with a Solar Exalted in his dreams, and gave birth to seven daughters. Three of those daughters traveled to the mortal world. The other four cast off their human forms and now blow through the Demon City, each a lesser echo of the Silent Wind."


(Games of Divinity, p. 87-88)


Despite the persuasiveness of my MLA formatted quotation, I still prefer the component soul theory of the elemental dragons. Offspring just opens up a huge can of metaphysical worms that I don't really need to deal with just yet.

 

[Persell]

Yeah, but then the author of the autochton book thought you could craft hungry ghosts into soulsteel, too. He was rather clueless.

There wasn't one author. The sections may or may not have been written by the same person.

The book is full of rather gross mistakes like the one mentioned above though.

 

[Flagg]

Despite the persuasiveness of my MLA formatted quotation' date=' I still prefer the component soul theory of the elemental dragons. Offspring just opens up a huge can of metaphysical worms that I don't really need to deal with just yet.[/quote']
I don't see "offspring" and "component souls" as being mutually exclusive. At all.

 

[Kremlin KOA]

Yeah, but then the author of the autochton book thought you could craft hungry ghosts into soulsteel, too. He was rather clueless.

There wasn't one author. The sections may or may not have been written by the same person.

The book is full of rather gross mistakes like the one mentioned above though.

show me where it is written that they can't

 

[Persell]

First Edition abyssals, second edition oadenol's codex.

 

[Kremlin KOA]

page references

 

[Solfi]

... The way I see it, the only way everything about Soulsteel makes sense is that only the upper soul may be used.


Still, I got curious about the official take on this and started scouring Oadenol's for any clues. I haven't seen anything other than hints, such as these:

[QUOTE="Oadenol's Codex]Execution in a manner to create a ghost, followed by permanent imprisonment in soulsteel, became a First Age punishment for criminals of the worst sort, such as serial murderers and traitors against the Deliberative.

[/QUOTE]
... Doesn't really make sense to use as punishment of the lower soul. It doesn't reincarnate, so it's lost anyways. It's doing it to the higher soul that makes the whole thing truly horrific.

 

[Torak]

Though being able to produce soulsteel out of a hungry ghost implies you just doubled the available resources which is quite... useful (?)