Solar Exalts and Martial Arts Development

[Jakk Bey]

Sidereals are put into the position as sifu to a Solar student.


In most games, Sidereals are those shadowy advisors, the character that comes and goes, leaves a cryptic comment, and then is gone when the character turns to say something else.


In that role, Sidereals are well suited. I don't find Sidereals a lot of fun to play, but they are great NPCs.  


I think that you have to really to create well focused games for Sidereals. The themes for Sidereals aren't that for Solars.  In their roles, and in their own games, their Martial Arts make sense.  


Think more Oh My Goddess and other anime and manga devoted to Celestial Bureacracy and their minions, less Beserk...more Onmyoji less Lone Wolf and Cub.

 

[Ker'ion]

Quote:


When have you ever seen a dove doing MA. Therefore MA should be within the purview of the Solars.


BIRDIE BOO-YAA, BEE-ATCH!!

Thank you for making my point.

My name seems to be conspicuously absent from yon quote.

 

[Bizar]

Quote:


Bizar wrote:

Quote:


When have you ever seen a dove doing MA. Therefore MA should be within the purview of the Solars.

BIRDIE BOO-YAA, BEE-ATCH!!

Thank you for making my point.

My name seems to be conspicuously absent from yon quote.

I humbly appologise Ker'ion. The quote is indeed yours and I thank you for lightening the discussion, but I was under the impression that everyone reading the thread would know it is yours.

 

[Bizar]

Sidereals are put into the position as sifu to a Solar student.

Yes, but I think I agreed with this, I just do not believe that the teacher should be allknowing know-it-all. I think he should be a guiding inspirational figure to the student. Someone who inspires the student to find the anwsers he needs and seeks.

In most games, Sidereals are those shadowy advisors, the character that comes and goes, leaves a cryptic comment, and then is gone when the character turns to say something else.

Again I think I said something to the same extend. This means that the Siddie doesn't need to know the MA.

In that role, Sidereals are well suited. I don't find Sidereals a lot of fun to play, but they are great NPCs.  

The Siddie book is created with playing Siddies in mind and through it it enforces concepts onto the rest of the world. I like my players to play a philosofical game and to try and interpret the concepts in the world. An extention of this is their development of new Items and Charms. The MA rules limit them significantly in this. Especially if you have a player who thoroughly enjoys MA.

I think that you have to really to create well focused games for Sidereals. The themes for Sidereals aren't that for Solars.  In their roles, and in their own games, their Martial Arts make sense.  

I agree the game will be far grittier because you are continuesly striving for the greater good. This means that you will marginise the individual. If a hundred friends die to save a thousandstrangers the Siddie should make the deal.

Think more Oh My Goddess and other anime and manga devoted to Celestial Bureacracy and their minions, less Beserk...more Onmyoji less Lone Wolf and Cub.

I cannot comment on this since I have seen none of these Anime.

 

[Jeppe]

When have you ever seen a dove doing MA.

Actually, I find the mind-boggling images of elementals, dragons, demons, gods, and weirder creatures performing martial arts quite attractive. It surely challenges your imagination, anyhow.

Solars can take the steps to get that level of initiation' date=' and do well, but the Sidereals have that knowledge from their start.[/quote']
I've been wondering about this. Although it is likely to be covered in the Scroll of the Monk, where can i currently find info on how Solars are initiated into Sidereal MA (and this perhaps be the appropriate place to mention that I haven't read PG)?

 

[Gtroc]

I really don´t get this argument at all. of course I tend to go with perfects, so melee is my path to perfection. I saw the martial arts and I think they were poorly thought out, but that is neither here nor there. the point is, that perfects trump Martial arts charms every time. At the level of essence required to learn Slide rule Martial arts, you could develop charms that give you multiple perfects a day, hits, dodges, and blocks. that schools most Martial arts used by anyone, as they tend to lack perfects, and the ones they have are usually limited. I am way off topic though, so I will just hell the shut up.

 

[Jakk Bey]

The thing is, perfects don't allow you to unweave kill Primordials...


I tend to roll with characters who specialize in Melee, but that's a style choice more than a choice for points.


I just think that Bizar is obsessed with the idea that Solars are supposed to be the best at everything, and should always have the best Charms and goodies.  At least from a thematic standpoint, and I think that he missed the idea of balancing the different Exalts a wee bit.


Comes down to it, Solars do have the edge, and if they ever learn the highest levels of Martial Arts, they are good contestants to whipping the floor with not just the Sidereals, but Gods, and even Yozi.  


But before you get that kind of power, you've got to go through the Hero's Journey.  It's put into place not just for mechanical reasons, but for theme.

 

[Gtroc]

I agree, like I said, I was merely throwing in a weird little side not, with little having to do with the actual argument.  I think martial arts were massivly miss designed, and one of the more poorly thought out charm sets in the game. but that is a different discussion all together.

 

[Jakk Bey]

I don't think they were misdesigned so much, as designed in such a way to be an XP sink.  Much like Craft.

 

[memesis]

I don't think they were misdesigned so much' date=' as designed in such a way to be an XP sink.  Much like Craft.[/quote']
They were designed to be a broadly useful, but not overly powerful, body of techniques.  For example, there's not a damn thing in the Solar arsenal that'll regenerate health levels in combat.  BUT, Wood Dragon Style can do it.  Similarly, there isn't really anything that steals Essence from others, or deprives them of using their Essence.  BUT, Hungry Ghost can do it.


Solars exemplify perfection.  But that does not mean that Solars can do anything they please.  It just means that they can flawlessly and superhumanly perform the things which heroes do (fight, lead, rule).  The supernatural martial arts allow them to step beyond that boundary and become something they aren't, even if the martial arts themselves can't equal the overwhelming power of the Solar Charm set.  Instead, martial arts set aside their own little "power niches".  Solars, Lunars, and Sidereals each have their niche.  Terrestrials have their niches.  Each martial arts style also represents its own "power niche".

 

[Alabaster Anathema]

I was reading something from the scroll of the monk thread on white wolf


Naturally Sidereal Martial Arts are going to be more powerful then Celestial Level Martial Arts


Just some interesting things while Sidereals can do Ecsoteric Principles that do very Cross Applied things that a Solar Could never achieve naturally do to their straight forward nature


A Solar Could Have an attack that stops a Yozi in its tracks or Level a Fortress


While a Sidereal of the Same level could not exsist or Instantaneously travel to yushan


thought it was a prettygood way of looking at things really

 

[Kremlin KOA]

The thing is, perfects don't allow you to unweave kill Primordials...

you never put Ghost eating technique into your combos?


remember a primordial who suffers the finishing blow from that charm becomes neverborn

 

[Bizar]

I just think that Bizar is obsessed with the idea that Solars are supposed to be the best at everything, and should always have the best Charms and goodies.  At least from a thematic standpoint, and I think that he missed the idea of balancing the different Exalts a wee bit.

I could not care less whether they are perfect or not. Thank you for the personal attack by the way, how civil. I find that the siddies discription does not fit the theme of the game. I think they are a bunch of overthought overdone misfits.


The reason I like for the Solars to have the same access as the siddies to MA is because I encourage my players to design their own charms their own artefacts and so on. I want them to give the Game more of their flavour instead of the Canon-version only type of stories. I am a very lenient storyteller and I don't mind something being a little out of balance, but I like the Solars because that way my players do not have any limitations in their creative ideas. The MA ceiling does place this there and that is why I am not in favour of it.


I agree that players should not be able to do whatever they want to do or even their characters it ruins the game. However I want them to have all the freedom to explore these bounds, preferably bounds within roleplaying. I think with the siddies they made it too much into a ruleplaying game and took out the creative element.


THEY ARE MASTERS OF CREATION NOW, ARE ON GREAT TERMS WITH THE GODS, INFLUENCE THE COURSE OF CREATION ON A DIALY BASIS, OH AND LETS GIVE THEM THE MOST POWERFUL UNARMED FIGHTING SKILLS TOO, BECAUSE THAT WILL MAKE THEM COOL.


BOLLOCKS


It's not so much my beef with the lack of solar power as it is with the overdone way the siddies are portrayed. WW again, as usual didn't know when to quit.

 

[Ker'ion]

Calm down, mon.


And I agree, the siddies seem a bit over powered to be a Celestial Exalt.


You can't kill me because I have Avoidance Kata and Duck Fate!


Sorry, Your Maiden wants your shard to move on and you can't stop her.

 

[Jeppe]

I think with the siddies they made it too much into a ruleplaying game and took out the creative element.

I must admit that I disagree strongly. I should say right away, that I haven't read through all charms of the Sidereals, nor tried to see how well they are balanced. That being said, I think that Sidereals are thematically awesome.


The whole idea that Sidereals interact with the most powerful beings in Creation is fantastic. Having been charged with the burden of saving the world and having to make the nessecary sacrifices and choices in order to achieve this goal, makes for some extremely interesting roleplaying opportunities.


On another note, I think that the Sidereals book shows example upon example of creative thinking. Arcane fate, astrology, the Loom of Fate, and the theme of charms are all fantastically imagined. At least in my case, the book forced my mind to think in unusual ways, and turn setting and theme upside down in order to comprehend it. When it comes down to it, I do believe that Sidereals are my favourite Exalted.

 

[Jakk Bey]

Noting that you seem to be fixated on an idea is a personal attack?


Sonny Jim, if I'm going to personally attack you, you will know it.  


On the other note: I find it quite the opposite--limitations cause folks to be more creative.  Given a blank page, and forty-million choices some folks get all seized up, but give them 10 colors and a clear exercise, and they'll display brilliance.


Your argument is sort of weak, for thematic reasons.  Long time basis for the Old Man of the Mountain to teach the Hero on his Journey.  Not my fault that the folks at WW have read their Campbell and have been students of folklore as well as film and manga.


Worse, you call the idea of limitations as stifling to creativity, and it ain't any such animal.  Given limitations, folks are then forced to be a lot more creative--as any con man, artist, or engineer can tell you.


Again, I think you missed the point of what a Sidereal game is about.


Sidereals aren't the Lords of Creation--they are civil servants.  They get to go to the cool parties, but they're mostly middle management.  They aren't on "great" terms with the Gods, they work for them, or have to bully and push.  They are, at their heart, bureaucrats.  


Again, the Sidereals have some broken bits that I hope get fixed in the 2E, and my problems with Ascension and Martial Arts being linked are again thematic, but I just don't buy the idea that the Solars "should" be the best at Martial Arts.


Certainly not when you are looking at a game that is heavily influenced  by Campbell's Hero's Journey, manga, and anime.

 

[Bizar]

I think I'll agree on disagreeing with you whole haertedly. I do think that the siddies had a lot of potential, but it failed. I even disagree with most of your arguments, except for the bureaucrat bit.


However I respect that you strive as I do to bring out the most enjoyment for the players in your group. I think that is the most important part. We clearly have different ideas on how to achieve this, but for us both I think the emphasis lies on the Roleplaying and that is where it should be in my oppinion.


I notice that I have a player who has been cowered into inaction by the ristrictions that he read in the siddie book. He had plans and thought to go through the PG to see if they could be implemented. In the end he was swayed from his idea by the way things were explained there. In the end he stopped his endevour. He loved MA-films and the like. I do not truly understand why and he got it into his head after reading the PG that his ideas were Sidie level MA so he stopped.


This is what made me think about the siddies as they are portrayed in the books. on the one hand they are the bureaucrats and on the other they are the wise old man on the mountain. However only in Asian mythology and cinema are these characters as powerful as the are in Exalted. Yes Exalted and other WW rape many mythologies. I do too if it enhances my story, but this does not mean that I or WW understands the intricacies of their choises.


I know hardly anything about theology and by extention mythology so I will not argue Campbell with you. I am a mathematician and it only grants me structure not necerally understanding in this, but the problem with the siddies in my oppinion is that their is no structure. They have simply tried to put too many concepts into one group. Put in none or choose carefully is my motto.


I do not claim that my idea is the way it should be as I have often said it is my oppinion. But I recognise in the siddies another step in an unwanted trend that WW have been implementing since VtM 2nd edition. They are reducing the weaknesses in characters and creating a niche for those of us who like powerplaying. Fine there is a market for that, but doing it in every game is annoying.


In again my oppinion Solars should be Epic in everything. They should be able to achieve the greatest hights iin everything and be able to commit the greatest deprvities. This contrast of extremes should be fueled to epic  proportions. Diminishing it in any way diminishes again in my oppinion the game and theroleplaying efforts of my players. This is why I hate powerplay it makes the epic mundane and diminishes the feel of accomplishment the players will get out of their ideas and effort.


I hope you can understand what I am saying. I am for  balancing the exalts but this should be done by roleplaying instead of powerplaying as WW have done now.

 

[Jukashi]

By that logic, Solars should instantly be more powerful than Elder Lunars, Mars, the Kukla, The Ebon Dragon, and Gaia.


Solars aren't supposed to be best at everything under- as it were- the sun; just leadership and skill. Solars can take human skill to superhuman levels, but it is still recognisably human skill- crafting, horseriding, sailing, bureaucracy, etc. etc.


Because of this, they are not allowed be the best at shapeshifting (Lunars) or Astrology (Sidereals) or hurling ice around (Dragon-Blooded). I don't think you object to that.


Your objection to Solars not being the best at Martial Arts is understandable, but, I feel, shows not enough understanding of Sidereal Martial Arts. Sidereal Martial Arts are more than human skill can accompish, and that is why Solars aren't automatically best at them.


Celestial Martial Arts allow you to emulate animals and other concrete ideals, things which humans can observe and emulate, thereby making it a human skill. Sidereal martial arts, on the other hand, allow you to emulate abstract concepts, things which humans are not naturally capable of even understanding... but that sidereals, due to their unique capacity to see how all the pieces of the world fit together, can easily comprehend. They and they alone are the Exalted stewards of Fate, and Fate is how Creation works.


Thus, Solars are not best at Sidereal Martial Arts because, while they are best at human skill, Sidereal Martial Arts are not truly human skills.

 

[Solfi]

... ok, why the hell is there even a need to justify the Siddie MA mastery? It's their schtick ffs!

 

[Upaatk]

I try to keep my mouth shut about most of these conversation, but I am really not sure what the concern is here.


The original problem is that a player of a Solar character wanted to learn Sidereal Martial Arts.  You as an ST evidently do not have a problem with Solars learning them, so why doesn't he simply have a Siddie mentor who automatically teaches every SMA charm to him whenever he wants to learn one?  A character needs someone to teach them any MA charm they learn anyhow, so what's the big deal?


If they want to be the one to design the MA, then all they need to do is design branch charms off of Solar Hero Style.  Sure, Solar Hero Style itself is a Celestial Martial Art, but any Solar-only branch charms are Solar level Charms and thus equal in power to Sidereal Martial Arts.  If this character lives long enough to reach an Essence of 8 he can have effects as mechanically strong as those of the printed SMA charms.


Solar Hero Style represents what it is to be a Solar in MA form, so it's exactly what you've described this desired MA to be; all about Perfect Style, Perfect Control, and Perfect Power.  If you're playing in a 1st Edition game then I recommend your player take Brawl and make a new tree called Solar Hero Style and have it do all of the things that you want it to do.  Brawl would definitely be Solar in power level and there are no rules preventing you from Brawl-form charms or anything else you would need for it to be the unarmed combat style you're looking for.

 

[Gtroc]

completely jacking the thread: I cannot remember, and I am not sure where to look, do Dawn Castes need a teacher for celestial MA? or are they able to pull the whole twilight sorcery schtick and learn it in a dream or some such? I am talking 2nd ED hear, I recall reading about it, but I cannot remember where, or what it said.

 

[Flagg]

AFAIK, Exalts of any stripe can learn the "natural" styles without a teacher. For Solars that's Snake and Solar Hero.


Everything else requires a teacher. The Dawn's only advantages are cheaper Charm and Ability costs.

 

[Solfi]

... I was under the impression that it was *only* the <Exalt-type> Hero Style that's natural to the respective Exalt-types.

 

[Gtroc]

that's what I thought as well.


why are martial arts harder to learn for a Dawn caste than sorcery is for a twilight. I find that odd.

 

[Jakk Bey]

Or you can make your own...