Solar Exalts and Martial Arts Development

blegh, i need to get scroll of the onk so i can see the second edition siddie level martial arts, so far as far as i know sidreals book is only 1st edition witch kinda leaves sidreals in 1st edition mode, for the argument that learning the martial arts is compleatly outside their preview, i ask if you achully did read the book...


Sidreals are a part of celestial bearucry yes, they help plan how fate will work out, but they are also fates defenders, fair foke, ghosts, demons.... all these are outside fate and thus you cant predict their effects on what is supposed to happen, likwise as it menchions in the book high uses of essence can tangle the threads of fate, and who gets deployed to handle these problems? why the sidreals of corse... and if the problem is a second circle demon (or god forbid a 3rd circle) or a bunch of fair foke in a region thats already got issues with the realm, well then, sending in your private dragon blood army wont be feasable, since that will require calling up the legions, getting them off the isle and to the location and have to deal with the locals before you can hammer away are the real problem, and by then a pardox effect might already be messing up reality... so no, you send in the 2 junior members of your convention as a strike team, and they nutrlize whatever threat there is...


it still fits very much with them, sidreals may have served the solars as advisors, and may do the same with the dragon blooded, but that is their choice, their only true job is to make damn sure fate continues how their bosses (the madiens) laied it out, somtimes you can get others to do it, others... well your going to have to be the cause of the essence driven specital of carnage..


also, taking time to learn, many martial arts, even more violent ones, are meditation in motion, and you can always have such time to practice, indeed it says that many sidreals will work for days on end then take a few days off, and pratice can be done during those days, and with your avrage sidreal living 3-to-5 thousand years they have plenty of time to pratice, not to menchion understand excatly how things work in creation to truly understand the principles of Sidreal Level MA


wnting solars to just be able to pratice them and be the best at everything is just being all jelious because your toys dont look as shiny as somone ealses.


(and yes i know typo and mis-spelling city, bite me the spell check ive been using recently is on the fritz, figure if i cant memorize better at least let a program make it easyer to understand me)


Edit-- some menchion of sprits weilding MA in second edition has been made, in first edition five days darkness weilds all 5 of the immaculat style MA's.... dose it nessary match his reson for existance? no, but as it says he feels sympathy for solars, his plots are agenst the sprits of the months not the US himself, so he might be pissy at the grunts daring overthrowing his siblings (after a fashion) and weild their own weapons agenst them as a way of showing it
 
i understand martial arts isnt the only thing that a siddie is good at but, what i am saying is that it was one of the things they were supposed to excel at. that and astrology.


now with solars being able to do the same thing, it pretty much means a siddie is null and void. a solar would make just as good of an advisor and sifu as a siddie, probably even better! Everything a siddie can do a solar can do better, and since martial arts isnt even their niche anymore that means that sidereals are essentially purposeless.


i mean there is no doubt a lunar excels at shapeshifting, a terrestrial at fighting in groups and being efficient, a abyssal is keen at killing and stealing. but a siddie now what are they good for?


everyone says they are good at advisors and being always prepared for shit to go down, with many contengency plans. but any good powerful exalt worth his weight in gold would do the same. it doesnt take any special talent to be wary and ready to bolt for trouble.


i donno it just seems that if you are gonna have siddies then they are gonna need to make it so that the siddie martial arts are unattainable. i know if i was storytelling a game, i would make it an impossibilty.


its like solar sorcery. its far beyond the ken and imagination of any other exalted to attain the kind of wisdom, and understanding of the world required to master them.
 
Lotus said:
now with solars being able to do the same thing, it pretty much means a siddie is null and void. a solar would make just as good of an advisor and sifu as a siddie, probably even better!
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Actually, I would imagine not. Oh, yes, Solars are excellent at every human skill, and being an advisor is indeed a human skill, but the thing is that advisors are in the background of someone else... something that Solars are not good at. Unless another Solar of equal or greater power is involved, a Solar will always find themselves taking first place, doing the biggest things themselves, right out there where everyone can see them and say "Yes, they're the best all right."


Solars are the best, but the price of that is that you have to be the best. Being at the side or behind is something that Solars are definitely bad at. Sidereals, however, do it with ease. Solars are the Sultans, not the viziers; the lord and not the butler. That is, after all, the way the Solars and Sidereals were designed by the gods to operate.
 
thats all well and good. but if two butlers are exalted, one as a solar and one as a sidereal. i have a feeling the solar would still excel.


you make it sound like its impossible for a solar to be behind someone else and be subservient. that is completely untrue. i mean look at the cult of the illuminated or the solars that choose to work underneath the deathlords.


i have a feeling that a solar butler would be stomping the sidereal in terms of servitude.


my point is, that solars are better at everything then a sidereal, which means a sidereal is pretty much pointless.
 
ive seen more then one person cry that since solars used to be involved with the celestial bearcuarcy that they should be able to preform sidreal astrology...


Lotus, within the cult of illuminated sidreals still rule from behind the scenes, after all its them who picks how the solar is trained and only recently are solars training other solars, a solar may be able to excell at everything, but that dosent mean others shouldnt have a better grasp at some areas then the solars without solars putting alot of work into it, oterwise playing other exalted types becomes pointless because the solars can do it all just as easly
 
I still feel that Solars are more general in their abilities while the other types of Exalts are more specialized.  Dragon-Bloods have abilities that affect large bodies of troops under their command.  Lunars are shapeshifters.  Abyssals fit with the Solars as generalists.  And finally, the Sidereals are the martial artists.  They have a unbroken chain of knowledge to tap into that no other class has.  Their arsenals are hidden away in Yu-Shan where the Lunars, Abyssals, and DB's can't get to without an escort, and there are few Solars that even know about it to figure out how to get there.


Solars can do a lot of everything, but nothing as well as the specialists can in their narrow field.  Yes, Solars have the ability to learn the Sidereal martial arts, but why would the Sidereals want to lose their monopoly on the one thing they got better than the Solars?
 
Thats my whole point bro. thats been my point all along. the solars are too well rounded, they are infiltrating and taking over other exalted type niches which makes the need for the other exalteds  not as great. i have been saying this whole time, solars should not be able to learn siddie martial arts, that should be a siddie talent alone.
 
A fellow voice of wisdom, I see.  Not that I'm going to hurt my arm patting myself on the back, or anything like that  :wink:
 
... The Solars schtick is excellence. Excellence at everything that is based on a mortal skill. 'Well-rounded' is pretty much a bieffect of that, if you've got enough time to boost every skill in your skill-tree (ie, a couple of thousand years...) I think it's completely in flavour that they can learn Siddie MA. You can go on about how mystical it is etc, but in the end, you're *still* boosting a skill.


And even if they *can* learn it, they're still not bloody likely to do so! Not to mention that, as several people (including myself) have been trying to say, MA is *NOT* the Sidereals main schtick (hell, *confrontation* is not their main schtick at all).


Their schtick is the manipulation of fate. And no, Solars should bloody well not be able to learn Astrology. There's no reason for that to happen than pure munchkinism.


... For some reason this discussion (when I've seen it lately), always degenerates into "but the Solar fanboys are whining about yet another thing they've *got* to be the best at". From what I've seen, it's the Siddie fanboys who are whining. And I really don't get it. Even with the Solars having the possibility of learning Siddie MA (hell, even if the Solar was able to use Sutras and/or knew all about the Siddie ways of manipulating behind the scenes, the Siddie curse, and their involvement in the Celestial Bureaucracy. Which they don't), the Solars would *still* be at a significant disadvantage if faced with a competent Sidereal (who may or may not be of the same powerlevel as said Solar)!


If you want to bemoan any Exalt type's shortchanging, my money will *always* be on the Lunars. Which is why I *cannot* wait for the [2E] Lunar fatsplat.
 
ive seen more then one person cry that since solars used to be involved with the celestial bearcuarcy that they should be able to preform sidreal astrology...
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That's asinine.


The Sidereals don't get Astrology courtesy of the Maidens because they work in the Bureaus.


They work in the Bureaus because they got Astrology courtesy of the Maidens.


Who's said this? :)
 
Lotus said:
i have a feeling that a solar butler would be stomping the sidereal in terms of servitude.
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Butlers are supposed to be unobtrusive. Nobody wants a butler who keeps bursting into a glorious pillar of flaming sunlight.
 
Jukashi said:
Lotus said:
i have a feeling that a solar butler would be stomping the sidereal in terms of servitude.
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Butlers are supposed to be unobtrusive. Nobody wants a butler who keeps bursting into a glorious pillar of flaming sunlight.
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...i do... (butler crashes into my dinning room filled with 50 guests, he has lept throught from the sun roof, and lands on the table, does 10 back flips, leaps onto the roast peacock, yanks a leg, tosses it at a guest demon, killing the hidden assassin, and sliding to the end of the table infront of me hips thrusting, glowing like the friggin sun.


Sol Butler:"Sir, the pizza has arrived"


me: "Damn your good"


Sol butler:" I know"


Me: "hey siddie!"


Sidde Butler: "Uh, yes sir?"


Me: fight for my amusement!


Siddie butler: i dont thiiink (cut off as solar leaps on him)


Sol Butler: (rises above the dead siddie soaked in blood)" haha i used his own martial techniques against him!"


me: "you get a 26 cent raise". )


FIN


And to Jukashi, i know that the solars main speil is excellence, but they are excellent shape shifters like Lunars. but they are equal to as martial artists as siddies. it bums me out. if solars can use siddie martial arts, then in my games siddies can learn solar circle sorcery ( with a solar teacher of course).


thats the only way to develope checks and balances. what do you guys think? reasonable?
 
who needs solar circle sorcery, too much essence and willpower thats better used ealswhere... get your paradox track down to 0, drop some bad astrology on your targets and makeyourself one heck of the destny of the sheild, then drop your paradox back down to 0 again and go have fun with your destny and combos of citrine poxes style and charcoal march....


as for the siddie fan boys crying about the solar fan boys, i wear my siddie fan boy badge proud...to few of us around ~sniff~ but its always been known a solar could learn siddie ma, the problem is it seems like more and more people think they Should... when the chances of the siddies teaching their fav tools/ foes they way to kill them are slimmer to none since their own special ma styles give them a nessary edge not only for fighting the demons and fair foke that threaten their prechious ceation, but those damnedable/ lovable solars as well... mechannly it dose make sense a solar could learn siddie MA (though mechanlly so too should a lunar)... roleplaying stand point has it on the list of what needs to happen mabey one or two above letting lingur take over the US's spot in yun-shan
 
All the fanbois of one or another kind always amuse me to be honest.


The siddie fanbois have to finally suck it up that the solars excel at everything and that the siddies are just inferior compared to the solars. they are bureaucrats and accounts. they parctice martial arts to find enlightment and as they want the solars to be enlightened, too it is only logical that at one point or another they will start teaching solars siderial level martial arts. It's not a huge powergain for the solars anyway, most essence 7 SMA can be countered with solar essence 2-3 charms anyway ^^


And the solar fanbois... well... they often suffer a case of severe munchkinism and and probably should rather play D&D.


Mechanically I always hated that fact that they gave the siderials uber powerful martial arts. Not because I don't like the sids (quite the opposite already) but because I think it distracts from the main siderial theme:


They are overworked, all odds against them and they still do their fucking jobs. Even though the true lords of creation have gone nuts the sids do everything to maintain it as good as they possibly can and despite the odds being definitely not in their favour they always surpass most expectations.... despite being deeply flawed.


Super powerful MA ruin this kinda.
 
Solars are the best Sorcerers, Abyssals are the best Necromancers, Sidereals the best Martial Artists, Lunars are the best Shapeshifters and Terrestrials the best Liuetenants.  Solars are the most powerful Exalt, but they still can be consumed.  


Why are people so concerned with giving Solars everything?  The Solars were wipped out by the DBs and Sidereals.  They aren't perfect.  Hell, I've designed mortal Solar-killers who have been frigteningly effective, and that was with standard 1E rules.  I've designed Wyld Hunt groups that eat Solars for lunch and use their orichalcum swords for touchpicks afterwards.  I've played Immaculate trained Assasins who've eaten the souls of Solars.  Solars are for people who are too incapable of playing anything more complicated.  Try a mortals campaign, without Exaltation, and see how you do.  It's fun, if you have the right ST, but you have to be good and you have to be smart.
 
Solars might not be perfect, but they embody perfection better than anyone else around. Well until that nasty curse hits them at least.


And honestly... your post reads like you are a total moron implying that anyone who plays a solar has not the balls to play a mortal. I always thought it was a matter of thematic preferences and not some kind of "my rules fu and clever fu is bigger than yours".


addendum: It is impossible to build an effective solar killer out of a starting mortal without bending the rules until they scream.


next addendum: your skill at munchkinism is in no way an indicator of how parts of the game are supposed to interact.
 
Safim said:
Solars might not be perfect, but they embody perfection better than anyone else around. Well until that nasty curse hits them at least.
And honestly... your post reads like you are a total moron implying that anyone who plays a solar has not the balls to play a mortal. I always thought it was a matter of thematic preferences and not some kind of "my rules fu and clever fu is bigger than yours".


addendum: It is impossible to build an effective solar killer out of a starting mortal without bending the rules until they scream.


next addendum: your skill at munchkinism is in no way an indicator of how parts of the game are supposed to interact.
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when you offend the lotus, you know you have crossed bounderies not ment to be crossed by mere mortals.
 
Lotus said:
Safim said:
Solars might not be perfect, but they embody perfection better than anyone else around. Well until that nasty curse hits them at least.
And honestly... your post reads like you are a total moron implying that anyone who plays a solar has not the balls to play a mortal. I always thought it was a matter of thematic preferences and not some kind of "my rules fu and clever fu is bigger than yours".


addendum: It is impossible to build an effective solar killer out of a starting mortal without bending the rules until they scream.


next addendum: your skill at munchkinism is in no way an indicator of how parts of the game are supposed to interact.
Click to expand...
when you offend the lotus, you know you have crossed bounderies not ment to be crossed by mere mortals.
Click to expand...
And?
 
Using the Player's Guide 1E rules you can make a solar killing mortal.  Let me explain.The mortal must be a heroic mortal who is given an Experience of 5 and a Knowledge of 5.  This will give them 6/4/3 for attributes, 22 for abilities, 1 favored ability, 5 for virtues, 5 for backgrounds, 21 freebie points for anything, 32 freebie points for non-magical traits and 32 freebie points for magical traits.


1) Spend fourteen freebie points from Experience on the mutations of Inexhaustible, Tough and Poison Mastery.  This will give the mortal a +2 Strength, +3 Stamina, +Stamina running speed, a natural lethal soak equal to their Stamina and an additional -1 health level and two additional -2 health levels.  Poison Mastery will allow the mortal to create any poison, drug, etc for 1 Willpower or 2 motes of Essence, according to the Mutation Merit rules in Players Guide.  These mutations are well worth the cost for a mortal, are indetectable through mundane means and will keep the mortal alive for a while.  As they are Merits, as opposed to a Wyld or Demense Mutation, it does not count against the normal mutation cap and does not make your character any more vulnerable to Faerie Charms.


2) Spend fourteen freebie points from Knowledge to buy Essence Awareness, Essence Mastery, Essence Recovery, Magical Attunement and Manse Attunement.  Essence Channeler would be cheaper and more effective, but people will complain about munchkinism, so I will ignore it for now.


3) Choose Virtues: Compassion 2, Conviction 5, Temperance 2 and Valor 5.  This will cost fifteen freebie points, use fifteen freebie points from Experience on this.  This will also give you a Willpower 10.


4) Choose Attributes: Strength 2, which will increase to 4, Dexterity 5, Stamina 2, which will increase to 5, for primary.  Choose Social for tertiary and put 2 in all three attributes.  Choose Mental for Secondary, give Intelligence and Perception a 2 and Wits a 5 for the three remaining points from Experience and five freebie points from the general pool.


5) Choose Abilities:  Your first favored ability should be Melee.  Buy it up to a 5, using two general freebie points, and buy two specialty dice in Sledge, since you are strong enough to use one, for one freebie point.  Give yourself a Dodge 3, Thrown 3, Brawl 3, Endurance 1, Resistance 1, Stealth 1, Survival 1, Lore 1, Linguistics 2 (Old Realm, Forestspeack and Riverspeak and Occult 3.  Buy Medicine as a second favored ability for three freebie point out of your general pool and buy Medicine 5 and two specialty dice in Poisons, costing six freebie points.


6) Choose Backgrounds:  Artifact 5 (First Age Dragon Armor from Outcaste would be great since it wouldn't require maintenance.  First Age Gunzosha Armor from Outcaste would also do though, as it too wouldn't require maintenance, would more likely be acceptable to the ST, and, since the character is able to commit Essence to it, it would not accelerate their aging.  In the case of the later, give the mortal a level one artifact line a Hearthstone Amulet to round them out), costing seven freebie point from Knowledge and Manse 5 (one level two, for the Dragon Armor, and a level three for personal use or, in the case of the gunzosha armor, a single level five Hearthstone), for a cost of seven freebie point from Knowledge.  Spend the remaining on Resources 3 and Backing (Lookshy) 3, costing one freebie point from general pool.


7) Spend remaining points: The mortal still has four Knowledge freebie points and six general freebie points.  Spend them to increase Essence to 2, giving them an Essence Pool of 27 motes, seven of which are spent to attune to the Dragon Armor.


There is the Solar Killing Mortal.  She is a mercenary associated with Lookshy who has proven her metal and is capable of having a chance against a Solar.  She found the Dragon Armor/Gunzosha Armor and claimed the Hearthstone (s) while in a campaign in the East from the ruins of a lost ancient city and has learned how to use its capabilities.  Lookshy will claim it and her Hearthstones when she dies, they are paying her an advance currently, but she can use them for now.
 
But logically, OS, there could in likelihood be maybe only one such mortal in all Creation, and such a mortal will eventually die.
 
Ahem, yeah. I guess... thank you for proving my point?


First... Knowledge 5 AND experience 5... hmmm sure... *pat*


Second... So she has melee 5, a sledge and some fancy armour. Your average starting combat solar is going to wipe the floor clean with her. Any extra action charm or combo containing one will instantly overpower her defenses if some kind of artifact weapon or greatsword is being used and she is damn fragile. "Frighteningly efficient" is what I would call her if she had a HUGE change of REGULARLY beating combat oriented solars.
 
Safim said:
Lotus said:
Safim said:
Solars might not be perfect, but they embody perfection better than anyone else around. Well until that nasty curse hits them at least.
And honestly... your post reads like you are a total moron implying that anyone who plays a solar has not the balls to play a mortal. I always thought it was a matter of thematic preferences and not some kind of "my rules fu and clever fu is bigger than yours".


addendum: It is impossible to build an effective solar killer out of a starting mortal without bending the rules until they scream.


next addendum: your skill at munchkinism is in no way an indicator of how parts of the game are supposed to interact.
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when you offend the lotus, you know you have crossed bounderies not ment to be crossed by mere mortals.
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And?
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what do you mean and?
 
I believe that would be a challenge to the chamber pot.


Maybe like a threat of bleach and a scouring pad or sumthin'.
 
I doubt that Experience 5 and Knowledge 5 heroic mortals are any less common than DBs.  After all, a heroic mortal can easily gain 5 XP a year, the equivalent of one session per year, which is the equivalent of 2 bonus points a year if you do the value conversion math.  Experience 5 and Knowledge 5 add up to 64 bonus points, the equivalent of 160 XP, which would take around 32 years of easy experience.  It would represent a retired Lookshy Ranger that has turned mercenary or spy as a second career.  


As Lookshy has an estimated ten Ranger Fangs per Dragon (one for every Dragon Armor/Warstrider 'Fang' and five estimated associated with the Dragon proper), five Dragons per Field Force and six active Field Forces and six Field Forces worth of retired soldiers, you could have 1500 active and 1500 retired Rangers of this level of experience in Lookshy alone.  Some of them will be older, but even the old ones will be capable fighters.  Other nations will have less people of this caliber, instead of 1% of their population, perhaps .01% to .02%, about the same proportion of their population as DBs.


Anyway, you send the solar killing mortal after newly Exalted solars.  You send a Lookshy Gunzosha Talon or a Water Dragon Armor 'Fang' against more experienced Solars or a beginning solar circle.  You send a full Field Force against an experienced solar circle.
 
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