Solar Exalts and Martial Arts Development

You realize how utterly retarded that sounds? However awesome you think the DKs are, they have not the unlimited potential of Gods or Solars. You can reverse engineer Exaltation furry boy.
 
From what I've seen in 2E so far, it looks like Sidereal MAs are capable of wildly powerful, exotic effects that only an old, elite Solar could duplicate... but there are fairly simple Solar Charms which can defend against them.
Most important thing to note here is that SMA are only availible to a siderial elite, too. Mechanically you have to have at least one celestial style but with most sifus around a millenium old or older their demands could be far worse for aspiring sidereals and then they get still trumped by solar low essence charms.


On the other hand... martial arts are a path to enlightment. not that you can buy anything from that but you can utter wise sentences afterwards... which is cool.
 
You realize how utterly retarded that sounds? However awesome you think the DKs are' date=' they have not the unlimited potential of Gods or Solars. You can reverse engineer Exaltation furry boy.[/quote']
With the Spirit Charms lists I've seen, gods seem to have very limited potential.
 
You realize how utterly retarded that sounds? However awesome you think the DKs are' date=' they have not the unlimited potential of Gods or Solars. You can reverse engineer Exaltation furry boy.[/quote']
With the Spirit Charms lists I've seen, gods seem to have very limited potential.
ummmm... that is an interesting theory, but one that gets blasted by reality. Just look at the gods who have more important positions than an unimportant road in a less traveled region, like for example flashing mountain. They are QUITE badass. And actually solars easily surpass the gods because of solar circle sorcery.


And for the dragonblooded owning solars... ahem. If you subtract the bronze faction guidance I highly doubt that. No matter how many of them.
 
Actually, Gods basically have no 'potential' at all. That's the point of them. They *are* their nature. The epitome of what they stand for. 'Potential' means ability to grow into something more. Spirits don't grow in the sense that characters do.


They increase what their natures are.


Does that make sense?
 
Solfi said:
Actually, Gods basically have no 'potential' at all. That's the point of them. They *are* their nature. The epitome of what they stand for. 'Potential' means ability to grow into something more. Spirits don't grow in the sense that characters do.
They increase what their natures are.


Does that make sense?
no here it makes no sense at all because we did not speak of a specific god but of the body of entities called gods and they are potentially quite powerful. even me mentioning "flashing mountain" was clearly an example.


Edit: and even that aside you were wrong because gods definitely have the ability to grow or change their sphere of influence which changes them.
 
Gods can grow a wee bit, but that has more to do with the role they're taking.


Gods don't learn Martial Arts, but have Spirit Charms which mimic the abilities, they don't walk the Lotus Path, and don't understand it.  


They are their natures, and while the first two portions of the Path are about understanding one's place in the Creation and the Heavens, the Blossoming of the Perfected Lotus goes beyond those roles, but understanding how both fit together--which isn't something the Gods can do.  They understand the Creation. The Heavens. Their own places in it.


They are their roles, and while the roles can change, as people change, as the Heavens see fit to promote, Gods don't have the same potential that the Exalted have. They are locked into their place in the All, while the Exalted, at least the Solars and Sidereals, have the potential to be even more.  Right nasty trick on the Gods by Autocthon if you ask me, which is what you get when you treat your ally like a valet...
 
However awesome you think the DKs are' date=' they have not the unlimited potential of Gods or Solars.[/quote']
I never said they did. But I think that anyone who can make artifacts with a rating of 5 could make something like an Alchemical if they knew how. Perhaps they might not be able to reverse-engineer them, but it's not outside the realms of possibility that they could get the knowledge some other way.


Or perhaps you'd prefer if making Exalts was out of their reach entirely. Requiring too much power, perchance, or complex facilties that the DKs aren't prone to having. No biggie. They can just give someone a bunch of Artifacts that together replicate the effects of Exaltation.


There, a whole post extolling the virtues of Dragon Kings without once mentioning the you-know-what. :D
 
Gods can grow a wee bit, but that has more to do with the role they're taking.
Gods don't learn Martial Arts, but have Spirit Charms which mimic the abilities, they don't walk the Lotus Path, and don't understand it.  


They are their natures, and while the first two portions of the Path are about understanding one's place in the Creation and the Heavens, the Blossoming of the Perfected Lotus goes beyond those roles, but understanding how both fit together--which isn't something the Gods can do.  They understand the Creation. The Heavens. Their own places in it.


They are their roles, and while the roles can change, as people change, as the Heavens see fit to promote, Gods don't have the same potential that the Exalted have. They are locked into their place in the All, while the Exalted, at least the Solars and Sidereals, have the potential to be even more.  Right nasty trick on the Gods by Autocthon if you ask me, which is what you get when you treat your ally like a valet...
Actually I call bullshit on that. Gods are not their roles. There are plenty of examples of gods abandoning their roles to do something else. Actually one example is the primodial war. The gods were not content with their roles and changed it. And in the age of sorrows the number of gods abandoning their role and duty is simply countless. Gods have a free will and they get bored easily so it is not a surprise that many abandon their duties.


There is some interaction between their skills and their roles, yes, but they have to learn their skills like anyone else if it is something out of their sphere of influence or they have to expand their influence to grow. One way or another, they do not come into existence the way they are. They change, like anyone else and they are not locked into a role. They can abandon it, look for a new one, change etc.


There are countless canon examples for that.


And for gods not practicing martial arts or follwing the lots. Where exactly did you get that from? Not a single god in canon has a single martial arts charm in his charmlist as far as I remember so I doubt that issue was ever adressed and probably grew only on your faulted understanding of the lore of exalted.


Gods can certainly try to achieve greater enlightment and while I would say martial arts are an uncommon way for them to do so, but not an impossible.
 
Sorry Safim, but the Player's guide explicitely states that only gods above Essence 5 have the volition to actually learn Martial Arts, and that those Gods below that who practise them do so as part of their nature, not because of learning them.


Also, it states, and I quote, that gods are "too rooted in their roles in Creation" to undergo Sidereal initiation.


Gods CAN learn things outside their role, but often the learning is to do with their original role in any case. Look at gods in 2nd Ed.; they all have motivations like "Ensure the Imperial city's place as the greatest city in Creation" or "Protect and nurture their field", or something else that is explictely linked to their role. Even when gods look for a Cult and try to recieve worship, they're generally not doing so just out of power-hunger, but in order to do their real job better.


Gods get power from their domain of influence; this is clearly seen in how they grow stronger when their domain widens or grows. Thus, their power is linked to their domain, and so a war god knows how to fight and a mining god knows how to mine.


The only way for a god to grow personally is to either (a) have sufficient power and volition (Essence 6+) to decide to learn something like a normal person or (b) to get a cult and, through recieving human essence, change their natures a bit so that they can do things humans do.


Yes, the gods rebelled in the primordial war. But the Unconquered Sun remained the god of the sun and of Excellence, Luna stayed the Trickster God/dess of the Moon, the salt gods remained salt gods, Tachi-Kun remained the central god of war, Leeayta remained the Dragon King Goddess of territorial conquest (and city mother of rathess), and so on.


If a god doesn't do their job, their domain gets weaker from not being looked after, and as it weakens the god does too. A cult can add essence, but the core of a god's power is tied up in their domain. Without it, the only power they'll have is from mere memories of their former power.


The only way a god can get out of that is to (a) originally have been a God-Blooded, who technically have no domain when they become gods but seem to do fine anyway, (b) get Scourged into a human, or possibly © Ride a mortal, depending on how the ST decides that affects them.


They could also become God-Souled. ;)
 
Player guide is first edition and has no meaning on anything second edition and most of the stuff you said above is never spelled out that way and actually the lore does contradict it.


The god of masks for example actively not pursues her domain being stronger but her own cult growing (see her motivation). The city father of the core lookshy for example is a mad gibbering idiot despite his town being one of the most important part of lookshy and why? because he could not cope with the stress. I doubt that this is part of the role. Gods have personalites above and beyond the limits you want to see for them. And the siderials book (yeah I know, first edition, but I am not quoting a rule) actually states that a lot of gods ABANDON THEIR DOMAINS as does games of divinity. If gods were locked into their roles they could not do this. And some gods even grow in power doing so.


I don't have my first edition stuff with me so the examples come not as easy as I want but for example the god in ruins of rathes abandoned his domain and carves his own destiny as the emperor of some kobolds ^^ What domain exactly is he promoting there in your opinion?


Or the unconquered sun playing the god? no, I can't see him doing anything else and when the zeniths call him only the mailbox answers. This would not be possible if he was locked up in his role. His motivation is probably not "promote my domain" but "finally beat luna and this bloody game. damnit" still... I can't see a decline in his power in the setting.
 
Jukashi said:
However awesome you think the DKs are' date=' they have not the unlimited potential of Gods or Solars.[/quote']
I never said they did. But I think that anyone who can make artifacts with a rating of 5 could make something like an Alchemical if they knew how. Perhaps they might not be able to reverse-engineer them, but it's not outside the realms of possibility that they could get the knowledge some other way.


Or perhaps you'd prefer if making Exalts was out of their reach entirely. Requiring too much power, perchance, or complex facilties that the DKs aren't prone to having. No biggie. They can just give someone a bunch of Artifacts that together replicate the effects of Exaltation.


There, a whole post extolling the virtues of Dragon Kings without once mentioning the you-know-what. :D
They're not glorified automatons, laughing boy. They're Exalts. What DKs would be making is just bigger Brass Legionnaires with new parts. Woohoo.
 
They're not glorified automatons' date=' laughing boy.[/quote']
I know that, CW. Obviously you'd be sticking a Dragon King soul in there. The body would just be a powerful Artifact that can allow use of Alchemical Charms, possibly with an extra feature to emulate the effect of a spirit using Ride.
 
Ahlat. Perfect example of a God who went far outside his duties to do other things.


He went from Overseer of the Mating of Walruses in the North to Southern God of War And Cattle..  and many of those changes, he undertook himself to change his position.


Goddess of the Imperial Mountain ( 2nd ed Blessed Isle ) has a ton of martial arts :P It's hardly in her position. And excellencies and stuff in it too.
 
... The point is, he might have changed due to his own actions, but the actual changes to himself were prompted by *external* conditions, not internal ones. There's a slight difference.


By the by, this made me think of that old, almost forgotten war god Mokuu in Pillar of the Sun (the Exalted novel). He manages to get his power to swell once again, with a little help from a Lunar and the Arczeckhi horde.
 
Just to throw my spanner into the works, the martial arts styles of the Four Arguments of Virtue (described in The Imperfect Lotus supplement) can be learned by spirits with an Essence as low as 3.


~FC.
 
Solfi said:
... The point is, he might have changed due to his own actions, but the actual changes to himself were prompted by *external* conditions, not internal ones. There's a slight difference.
By the by, this made me think of that old, almost forgotten war god Mokuu in Pillar of the Sun (the Exalted novel). He manages to get his power to swell once again, with a little help from a Lunar and the Arczeckhi horde.
Like already said, a lot of gods simply abandon their positions. It is said again and again in GoD, Sidereals and the corebook. Solars and terrestrials used to work to put them back into place as did the rest of the celestial bureaucracy but the system is failing. Look at the gods of great forks, what exactly is their sphere of influence? They wandered around with groups of people they chose to protect, not because that is their duty, they chose. deliberately. out of place.
 
And I'm saying that gods choosing to do other things does not immediately change their nature. And that they still *are* their nature on a very fundamental level. It's what they know, what they draw strength from.


Aspiring to be something else works differently for a god, because he needs to change a very fundamental aspect of himself to do so. And that is achieved through changing their spheres of influence.


The gods of Great Forks do not abide by the traditional rules of the Celestial Bureaucracy and through the worship they garner from their city (an *external* influence on their being), they gain in might.


Notice however that even though these gods have even managed changed some of the external conditions on their existence, their fundamental natures are still the same.
 
Safim said:
Like already said, a lot of gods simply abandon their positions. It is said again and again in GoD, Sidereals and the corebook. Solars and terrestrials used to work to put them back into place as did the rest of the celestial bureaucracy but the system is failing. Look at the gods of great forks, what exactly is their sphere of influence? They wandered around with groups of people they chose to protect, not because that is their duty, they chose. deliberately. out of place.
Now it's my turn to call bullshit. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You say that the Player's Guide is null and void because it's 1st Edition, but you have continually cited 1st Edition sources to make your argument. The argument itself means little to me. In my game, I'll do whats best for the story. If a god gaining new abilities helps the story, then the god will do that. I can justify it however I like. But if you're going to say 1st Edition is null and void, you can't use those examples in your argument.
 
Van77Man said:
Safim said:
Like already said, a lot of gods simply abandon their positions. It is said again and again in GoD, Sidereals and the corebook. Solars and terrestrials used to work to put them back into place as did the rest of the celestial bureaucracy but the system is failing. Look at the gods of great forks, what exactly is their sphere of influence? They wandered around with groups of people they chose to protect, not because that is their duty, they chose. deliberately. out of place.
Now it's my turn to call bullshit. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You say that the Player's Guide is null and void because it's 1st Edition, but you have continually cited 1st Edition sources to make your argument. The argument itself means little to me. In my game, I'll do whats best for the story. If a god gaining new abilities helps the story, then the god will do that. I can justify it however I like. But if you're going to say 1st Edition is null and void, you can't use those examples in your argument.
The difference is, he used a rule-quote which is nullified by the second edition (simply by the fact that a lot of non wargods learn martial arts) while I quote fluff that is not likely to change a lot. I even adressed that issue in my first post quoting first age fluff. not rules, mind you.
 
i am just kinda pissed cus i love siddies. i think they are fun to play and they are interesting. the thing is. that before Siddie level martial arts was there niche, you know? Now that Solars can not only master the sid martial arts, but actually perform better at it just takes away from the siddie flavor.


essentially the solar can now do everything the siddie can do. they are essentially null and pretty much not useful for anything. you could just replace all the siddies with solars and say it was all some big conspiracy.


i think the only reason they gave the solars the ability to do siddie level martial arts is because:


a) they fucked up making the elemental MA styles, realized they were to powerful for the DB's and then just explained it by saying that it took alot out of the TErrestrial. they soon realized that people would wonder why solars could do the same, they being better then the DB's. So whats higher then celestial level? siddie level. bam now solars can excel at it no problem.


&


b) people got pissed cus the solars couldnt do awesome Cool deadly styles and demanded that they get the ability to play as a solar//siddie martial artist. its utter bull


my point in all this rambling is this: if you are gonna have a siddie then make sure they have there niche: astrology, and MA. if not then just get rid of them completely because the uniqueness of my fav exalt type is pretty much destroyed.
 
There is one probelm with the theory that Sidereal Martial Arts are completely the Sidereal's thing and no one should ever be able to learn them. Everyone (with one known exception, caused by broken castes), can step up in martial arts. Mortals can learn Terrestrial styles with effort. Dragonblooded can learn Celestial styles with effort. And Solars can learn Sidereal styles, with effort. Lunar currently cannot step up to Sidereal styles, though if one could fix their castes and the touch of the wyld, they likely could. Might make for an interesting cronicle around healing such...with a side benefit. Even Sidereal exalted, although capable of crafting Sidereal martial arts MUST master a Celestial style to take the form charm and above in a Sidereal martial art...effectivelly going through the hoops of stepping up to the next stage of enlightenment themselves. Martial arts in exalted are about enlightenment, with a side benefit of martial skill. Enlightenment is not solely anyone's domain.
 
@Safim: I'm saving a response to that until I've had time to read through Scroll of the Monk completely, for now I'll agree to disagree.


@Lotus: I don't see it... Solars might be able to learn Siddy MA, but it's certainly not easy for them, and I don't see it happening... Siddies got their sticks way too high up their asses to allow that.


MA as the Siddie schtick is overrated anyway. It's part of it, but it's certainly not all they are. Even without it, they're fucking impossible to deal with... Since their *real* schtick (in my book anyways) is stacking the deck heavily their way, before even confronting any kind of opponent... if they actually confront anyone at all, instead of allowing 'circumstances' to take care of their problem. Bastards.


Besides, if I wanted to whack that Siddie MA master (presuming I had enough XP under my belt to actually rival the XP of the Siddie MAist and managed to actually get him/her in a one-on-one situation), I wouldn't spend it (even if given the possibility of a Sifu) on Siddie MA. I'd spend it one Melee. Or possibly high-level Solar Hero Style (Which we are yet to see examples of).


... Siddies do funky shit to hurt people. Solars just do it perfectly.


(I'd love to see what the people behind Sol Invictus has to say about the 2nd. ed Charm-sets....)
 

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