Dice Rifts - The Thirteenth Mystery - OOC

[Purr]

It's my irl nickname, a portmanteu of my name and epsilon, which is also suitably unique that I can use it everywhere and count on it not being taken.

That's really neat! =)

Since my character concept is a spy who turns their coat in the Future That Was, the only way they're really in a group with a bunch of people actually on Tolkeen's side in the original 101 PA is by lying through their teeth. Which is a really bad foundation for working together.

This is how I feel too, hence my questions.

Tolkeen is a big place, when planning my character, I was under the distinct impression that we would *not* have known each other particularly well the first time around, but might have gotten closer during the FTW so that we were well-placed to form a group immediately upon restarting. That you have chosen to make a character who does not remember the FTW really makes group formation more complicated or at least suspension-of-disbelief-stretching.

I agree with your last sentence if we are following your character's backstory for the whole group.

The way I see it (and I'm open to correction) is we have two timelines, right? To use your phrasing, we have the Future That Was. We also have the Future That Is.

One idea a bunch of us seriously discussed here earlier this week was the group having been a team prior to 101 P.A..

So. For the sake of gameplay and story, if we were a team in the FTW in 101 P.A., and if my character left the team entirely and did not travel to Tolkeen with you, and if you did not see her again, then as far as the story is concerned, she wasn't there in FTW. Thus, what is there for her to remember? Whatever she was doing when the rest of you were together is entirely irrelevant to the FTW story. She is only involved the Future That Is.

There are benefits to this (here in O.O.C. when Pips and I discussed it). Here are a few. Chan-Chan's perspective is different than the team's. Her probable role (future-seeing psychic and the team's "early warning system"), combination of powers, and knowledge are possible game-changers for the team. Armed with her and the experiences of FTW, the team's outlook might change considerably along with their odds of succeeding in changing the future (and time is something Chiang-Ku know something about with their access to Temporal Magic knowledge).

Think about it. If you just fell back in time and escaped a grisly death and you found a good friend who not only completely believed your story (the one that nobody else would believe), and out of faith in you, she was willing to risk her life to go along with you to change that future (the future being something she can sometimes predict with accuracy), why wouldn't you take her along?

But again, this idea had nothing to do your character's recently-developed backstory - this team-oriented approach was developed a short while ago. If we were a team in 101 P.A.,, I think the idea stands a great chance of working and adding to the fun. If instead, we follow your character's backstory which completely excludes him from being in the team in the first place, and instead we are just some group... well... I'd say that changes things quite a bit. Also, I feel each direction should be given equal consideration - after all, they are both Player-driven ideas. I hope we will all discuss more until all seven of us have something to smile about. =)

This is one very large part why I keep asking all of these questions here in O.O.C. and not in private to Pips. Folks, I want us all on the same page. Not as individuals, but as a gaming group - a team of Players with our GM. How else do fun games and good times last for years and years? =)

Honor and fun,
Dann =)

 

[Esbilon]

I see what you're saying, Dannigan. And you're right that the problems of group formation is basically opposite for our characters. Yours more or less requires a pre-FTW group, and mine pretty much precludes it. I'm not sure I really see a way of resolving that without changing one of the concepts significantly.

 

[Purr]

I see what you're saying, Dannigan. And you're right that the problems of group formation is basically opposite for our characters. Yours more or less requires a pre-FTW group, and mine pretty much precludes it. I'm not sure I really see a way of resolving that without changing one of the concepts significantly.

You're right, Esbilon, but I'm not worried. If we can't, we'll probably make a third! We have all kinds of creativity with this band of ours! =)

 

[Purr]

Maybe we should hold a vote? Keeping in mind that Sherwood and Psychie have decided to play siblings, how many of us like the idea of us being a team at 101 P.A.? How many don't find that approach appealing and would rather be a group of individuals instead?

Also, Epiphany might we get more information on the "larger group" you mentioned earlier tonight? I don't mean to ask for "behind the GM screen" details; just a little better idea of what you mean. Do you mean an adventuring guild of sorts? A do-gooder company or totally Tolkeen-based organization of some kind?

I am off for now (I'm beat and my brain's finally ready for sleep - hurray!). Hope everyone is safe and healthy! =) And thanks for the chat, Esbilon, and for telling me how you came about your RP Nation handle! I mean, how cool is that? Epsilon plus = Esbilon! =)

 

[Esbilon]

I have a few questions about combat

1a) W.P. Paired weapons (Rifts Ultimate p. 327) says that it lets one strike and parry simoultaneously, meaning that you get to perform two actions for every one melee action/attack.
1b) Combat rules step 3 (Rifts Ultimate p. 340) says that parrying does not require an action, but is automatic.
1c) Some of the text in W.P. Paired weapons refers to counter-attacks, but it's not entirely clear whether that's regular attacks against someone who has attacked you or their own special thing.

Question 1: Is 1a) a left-over from a previous version where 1b) was not in effect and it took an attack to parry, or does it allow for a free counter-attack every time you parry someone else's attack? Or something different?

Question 2: If I have Automatic Dodge (from HtH: Commando), do I have to decide immediately whether I want to use that or an active dodge (costing me an action) or do I get to see the result of the Automatic Dodge first?

 

[Purr]

Esbilon Hey there! This is how I've been working it in my games (and Sherwood and Psychie when I've played in theirs). Pips will want to see this, I'm sure. Epiphany

1a) W.P. Paired weapons (Rifts Ultimate p. 327) says that it lets one strike and parry simoultaneously, meaning that you get to perform two actions for every one melee action/attack.

Yes. And then I feel Palladium screws up the wording big time here.

1b) Combat rules step 3 (Rifts Ultimate p. 340) says that parrying does not require an action, but is automatic.

In our games, Parries are always automatic (cost no Action).

Note: Some GMs rule that if you're not trained in hand to hand combat, you don't know how to Automatic Parry. I believe this is the case in Palladium's Fantasy Game where only Men-at-Arms O.C.C. benefit from Automatic Parry; wizards and the like have to use up an Action.

1c) Some of the text in W.P. Paired weapons refers to counter-attacks, but it's not entirely clear whether that's regular attacks against someone who has attacked you or their own special thing.

I believe Palladium is stating that if your character has used both weapons to Parry, you cannot then use them to attack immediately afterward (meaning during your next Action. Apparently, you're supposed to just stand there and hope they don't swing on you with both weapons again and again until they are out of Actions? Derp!).

Psychie and Sherwood can correct me if I'm wrong here (and please do!), but we have never used this rule. We treat it like unarmed combat; you can attempt to Parry most any attack you are aware of. The exceptions often include fast-moving objects like arrows, bullets, and energy weapons which some O.C.C.s specifically state they can attempt at a penalty to the roll (usually -6 or so). Rifts Japan has classes that are big on this.

Question 1: Is 1a) a left-over from a previous version where 1b) was not in effect and it took an attack to parry, or does it allow for a free counter-attack every time you parry someone else's attack? Or something different?

Something different. It may be left over from Palladium Fantasy game ruling? No free counter-attack. I think the wording gets confusing because Palladium appears to be counting Parries as non-automatic (see below) but only when using Paired Weapons. This choice of wording and example has never made sense to me and I've had to explain (and sometimes provide examples via demonstration) what it means to Players at my own table.

Basically, throw out the "counter-attack" terminology and just Parry. When your Action comes around, whether you've Parried with one weapon or both, you attack normally.

Note: For those willing to do the math, counter-attacks are explained in great detail in Ninjas & Superspies where martial arts have techniques like Combination Parry/Attack and Power Block, both counters that cause a little damage (d6) but they can only be called upon once per Round (not every time you're attacked unless you're only attacked once).

If you're into Real Life martial arts, I recommend thinking of the Ninjas & Superspies Combination Parry/Attack as HEMA's two-time counter-attack as shown here by the superb instructors at Canada's Blood and Iron HEMA school.

Question 2: If I have Automatic Dodge (from HtH: Commando), do I have to decide immediately whether I want to use that or an active dodge (costing me an action) or do I get to see the result of the Automatic Dodge first?

Again, in our games, we have simplified this rule. In vanilla Palladium, Automatic Dodge has a different set of bonuses than Dodge. We said "KISS" (for Keep It Simple, Stupid) and threw this out. For us, Automatic Dodge uses the same exact modifiers as Dodge. If you have Automatic Dodge, it is used in place of Dodge or, put another way, having Automatic Dodge means your Dodge simply never uses an Action.

(I am adding this last part out of habit of teaching beginning players, not because I don't think you already know. I just don't feel right unless it's said.) While these rules have served us very well over the years, all of this is, of course, up to Pips to decide for her game. =)

 

[Purr]

When you say 'short', how short are we talking?

(This popped in my head when you wrote this.) Heh! =)

 

[Esbilon]

OK. Paired weapons has 4 effects listed. I'll try to summarise my understanding, please correct me if I'm wrong on any of these.

1. Strike and parry simultaneously.
This does nothing as parries are free and automatic.
2. Twin, simultaneous strikes
Powerful ability to basically double your damage at no cost, assuming your weapons deal the same amount of damage.
3. Strike two different targets
Basically the same as 2., but now split across different people.
4. Parry two different attackers, one with each hand.
This does nothing as parries are free and automatic.

 

[Epiphany]

Some thoughts (and on my phone so they won't be long ones).

Option #1: No preexisting group. Most everyone groups up because they catch sight of each other, remembering fighting beside each other in the future, and notice everyone else is looking at everyone else too. Presumably leading someone to say "hey, is it just me?".
1.a. Hook for Chan Chan: her Grey Seer temporal senses are tingling, she overhears enough to investigate and the party doesn't turn down the extra help (who says no to a dragon?)

Option #2: Preexisting group. Everyone was already an adventuring party way back in the day. We'll need to work out what the unifying thread is, since the war won't formally start for a few years.
2.a. what happened to Chan Chan?
2.b. Hook for Mind Melter: they were spying two years prior to 101 PA, perhaps being a 'member' was a point of access and an excuse to be in Tolkeen?

Option#3: You're all members of the Unkillables, an A-Team like group of elite troubleshooters, fighters, scouts, wizards, and whatever else the client needs. There's half a dozen other members and the group is led by "The Colonel" Jason Armitage, a man rumored to be the only survivor of the nuclear strike on Seattle hundreds of years ago, a man who now can't age and can't ever die (allegedly). No longer allegedly, though, as your group watched him finally die after taking a direct hit from tank cannon fire for what might have been the 100th time 5 minutes before the hospital was destroyed.
3.a. Hook for Mind Melter: basically the same as 2, except less suspicious and with generally more access to the Tolkeen campaign itself, as the Unkillables were well liked in the city having operated out of there and willing to defend the city for decades prior to 101 PA.

Okay, that didn't end up being short after all.

 

[Epiphany]

OK. Paired weapons has 4 effects listed. I'll try to summarise my understanding, please correct me if I'm wrong on any of these.

1. Strike and parry simultaneously.
This does nothing as parries are free and automatic.
2. Twin, simultaneous strikes
Powerful ability to basically double your damage at no cost, assuming your weapons deal the same amount of damage.
3. Strike two different targets
Basically the same as 2., but now split across different people.
4. Parry two different attackers, one with each hand.
This does nothing as parries are free and automatic.

This is pretty much the case. I'm all for simplifying the needlessly overwrought rule engine.

I like that ruling on automatic Dodge versus Dodge. I think I'll use that too.

 

[Epiphany]

Some thoughts (and on my phone so they won't be long ones).

Option #1: No preexisting group. Most everyone groups up because they catch sight of each other, remembering fighting beside each other in the future, and notice everyone else is looking at everyone else too. Presumably leading someone to say "hey, is it just me?".
1.a. Hook for Chan Chan: her Grey Seer temporal senses are tingling, she overhears enough to investigate and the party doesn't turn down the extra help (who says no to a dragon?)

Option #2: Preexisting group. Everyone was already an adventuring party way back in the day. We'll need to work out what the unifying thread is, since the war won't formally start for a few years.
2.a. what happened to Chan Chan?
2.b. Hook for Mind Melter: they were spying two years prior to 101 PA, perhaps being a 'member' was a point of access and an excuse to be in Tolkeen?

Option#3: You're all members of the Unkillables, an A-Team like group of elite troubleshooters, fighters, scouts, wizards, and whatever else the client needs. There's half a dozen other members and the group is led by "The Colonel" Jason Armitage, a man rumored to be the only survivor of the nuclear strike on Seattle hundreds of years ago, a man who now can't age and can't ever die (allegedly). No longer allegedly, though, as your group watched him finally die after taking a direct hit from tank cannon fire for what might have been the 100th time 5 minutes before the hospital was destroyed.
3.a. Hook for Mind Melter: basically the same as 2, except less suspicious and with generally more access to the Tolkeen campaign itself, as the Unkillables were well liked in the city having operated out of there and willing to defend the city for decades prior to 101 PA.

Okay, that didn't end up being short after all.

FYI, of course there can be option 4, option 5, whatever you guys think of and want to pitch. Happy to work out a good way of grouping everyone that is respectful of backstories and campaign intent.

This next week, I will be focusing on reading through character sheets thoughtfully and with a view to begin planning out NPCs, possible story arcs and the like. I'll also try to put together a opening Main post particularly including the speech that everybody hears upon their return.

Thanks everyone for your patience. This is probably a longer set up time than most games usually have. My hope is that the payoff will be a game of longer duration and more satisfying content then most games on RPN usually have.

 

[EmperorNorton1]

oooh!!! these are all great ideas pip! my favorite is one, but three is a close second.

 

[Epiphany]

oooh!!! these are all great ideas pip! my favorite is one, but three is a close second.

Right, totally forgot that neither of the group options is great for roping in a journalist...

 

[EmperorNorton1]

I had an idea for a connection. my guess is most of the characters would all likely know about Ellis beforehand, the war broadcasts are probably at least semi-well-known. maybe ebsilon's spy was ordered to off Ellis right as he was turning on the CS, maybe some battle that Ellis was right in the thick of, Sherwood 's and Psychie 's Atlanteans were also there (Or we could do my initial idea of the siblings and the humans meeting in Atlantis once or twice), maybe Eonivar 's demi-god and the journalist were in the same hospital, the same room, as it came crashing down during the fall of Tolkien, maybe dann's Chan Chan, told to leave the city, follows the war based on Ellis's broadcasts alongside her own visions. of course, these are just ideas, what do yall think?

and Ellis wouldn't only be recording the atrocities. it turns out that being able to fly is useful for evacuating civilians. they dont often play a combat role, but they dont merely hold a camera.

 

[Esbilon]

I think option 3 works well for at least some kinds of journalists. It's a good way to get PR for the Unkillables and a good way for the journalist to get combat footage before the war proper kicks off. There's sure to be some tensions between what's good for the Colonel and what's good journalism, but that's just good rpg drama.

 

[Esbilon]

Again, in our games, we have simplified this rule. In vanilla Palladium, Automatic Dodge has a different set of bonuses than Dodge. We said "KISS" (for Keep It Simple, Stupid) and threw this out. For us, Automatic Dodge uses the same exact modifiers as Dodge. If you have Automatic Dodge, it is used in place of Dodge or, put another way, having Automatic Dodge means your Dodge simply never uses an Action.

I like that ruling on automatic Dodge versus Dodge. I think I'll use that too.

Just to be clear, this means that the "automatic dodge" modifiers do nothing, but the fact that they're there at all converts regular dodge to automatic dodge? That sounds more than fair and pretty simple.

 

[Esbilon]

Option#3: You're all members of the Unkillables, an A-Team like group of elite troubleshooters, fighters, scouts, wizards, and whatever else the client needs. There's half a dozen other members and the group is led by "The Colonel" Jason Armitage, a man rumored to be the only survivor of the nuclear strike on Seattle hundreds of years ago, a man who now can't age and can't ever die (allegedly). No longer allegedly, though, as your group watched him finally die after taking a direct hit from tank cannon fire for what might have been the 100th time 5 minutes before the hospital was destroyed.
3.a. Hook for Mind Melter: basically the same as 2, except less suspicious and with generally more access to the Tolkeen campaign itself, as the Unkillables were well liked in the city having operated out of there and willing to defend the city for decades prior to 101 PA.

Sorry about the multiposting, but I just wanna check: Are the Unkillables mentioned in any canon source and if so which?

 

[Epiphany]

Sorry about the multiposting, but I just wanna check: Are the Unkillables mentioned in any canon source and if so which?

The Unkillables were a mercenary company originally put together using Rifts: Mercenary rules...ah, God, 20 years ago? Entirely my own creation for a campaign so long ago, I no longer remember it. When "part of a larger group" came up, I thought of the Unkillables and I swear I could 'feel' the dust coming off that memory, it's been that long.

If there's interest in pursuing that, let me know and I'll put it into the queue to recreate (20 years ago me did a terrible job I'm sure). I do recall they had several vehicles for transport (which might be useful depending on what your characters decide to do), a good sized budget and were noteworthy for only having some 10-15 members who were all individually powerful (i.e. the team had no concept of a foot soldier, they were all elite operatives) and their typical deployment was less "Go head to head with a Coalition battalion" and more "Break into base, rescue hostages, and rig it with explosives to blow once you're out" type work.

 

[Epiphany]

The Unkillables were a mercenary company originally put together using Rifts: Mercenary rules...ah, God, 20 years ago? Entirely my own creation for a campaign so long ago, I no longer remember it. When "part of a larger group" came up, I thought of the Unkillables and I swear I could 'feel' the dust coming off that memory, it's been that long.

If there's interest in pursuing that, let me know and I'll put it into the queue to recreate (20 years ago me did a terrible job I'm sure). I do recall they had several vehicles for transport (which might be useful depending on what your characters decide to do), a good sized budget and were noteworthy for only having some 10-15 members who were all individually powerful (i.e. the team had no concept of a foot soldier, they were all elite operatives) and their typical deployment was less "Go head to head with a Coalition battalion" and more "Break into base, rescue hostages, and rig it with explosives to blow once you're out" type work.

Okay, thinking hard about it, I'm pretty sure the last time I used them, the PCs were part of the Unkillables and the whole team took a job to break into the Splynn Dimensional Market in Atlantis and rescue a group of people who'd been taken as slaves and were due to be sold.

Suffice to say, they were highly mobile, highly skilled and had to be up for tussling with the big leagues.

 

[EmperorNorton1]

I do love blowing up fascists and slave owners! John Brown time?

also there are a quartet of crows outside my window that have been cawing at me for the past five minuites.

 

[Epiphany]

Okay, in looking at PPE and ISP regeneration rates...am I crazy or is the average PC here who goes empty supposed to do nothing but meditate for 2-3 days to get back up to full strength?

 

[Eonivar]

Okay, in looking at PPE and ISP regeneration rates...am I crazy or is the average PC here who goes empty supposed to do nothing but meditate for 2-3 days to get back up to full strength?

That was mentioned somewhere in one of the FAQs….and there was really no answer given on it.

 

[Eonivar]

So to help with any possible connections, for my character Priya, she is going to be born and raised in Tolkeen. She is raised a doctor like her mother, discovering her magical and psychic powers as she learned.

I can see her being part of the Tolkeen community leadership, possibly in charge of or at least one of the main Doctors of the Hospital by 101 PA.

It’s possible that before 101 P.A anyone who passed through needing medical attention may have met Priya, particularly if they are MDC beings with her Magic healing abilities.

I can see Priya interacting much with the Council of 12 in her community leadership position, she may have been considered a position on the Council if one opened up.

The first time around Priya was very determined to save her nation and home, so she would have been active in the various missions and such.

I have not started yet going through the war in detail but I figured with her background she would have possibly run into the others in passing before 101 PA, or they would at least know who she is. I think Ellis would know Priya well. After 101 she probably worked closely with the Atlanteans and Ellis.

She will be trying to evacuate the Hospital before the shift occurs.

 

[Purr]

Thanks everyone for your patience. This is probably a longer set up time than most games usually have. My hope is that the payoff will be a game of longer duration and more satisfying content then most games on RPN usually have.

"Patience?" Epiphany Pips, you are giving us the space and freedom we need to plant deep roots into a game I'm hoping will net us all years of fun and good times! =) Thank you for putting up with this hyperactive player and the thousands of words you've had to read through since even before I joined the game! If anything, I feel you've been quite patient with me! (All of you, not just Pips.) =)

Just to be clear, this means that the "automatic dodge" modifiers do nothing, but the fact that they're there at all converts regular dodge to automatic dodge? That sounds more than fair and pretty simple.

Esbilon Yes! Note: Concerning Hand to Hand: Commando, there is an editing error repeated in more than a few books that provide a level advancement bonus to Automatic Dodge (+2 around level 4 if memory serves?)... but that's the first time in the skills's description that tells the Player/GM that this system has Automatic Dodge in the first place! It's not in the description of the skill.

Am I the only one who thinks Hand to Hand: Commando is a hidden gem because it is a martial art system that gives the highly-useful Automatic Dodge ability for the overall cost of 3 Skills? I can't be. =) Whatever the case, it makes for a cool military recruitment slogan - "Join us in the Special Forces! Don't be like the rest of those 'have to use my precious Actions for Dodging' ninnies! Use your Actions for what they were meant for - to destroy our enemies!'"

The Unkillables were a mercenary company originally put together using Rifts: Mercenary rules...ah, God, 20 years ago? Entirely my own creation for a campaign so long ago, I no longer remember it. When "part of a larger group" came up, I thought of the Unkillables and I swear I could 'feel' the dust coming off that memory, it's been that long.

If there's interest in pursuing that, let me know and I'll put it into the queue to recreate (20 years ago me did a terrible job I'm sure). I do recall they had several vehicles for transport (which might be useful depending on what your characters decide to do), a good sized budget and were noteworthy for only having some 10-15 members who were all individually powerful (i.e. the team had no concept of a foot soldier, they were all elite operatives) and their typical deployment was less "Go head to head with a Coalition battalion" and more "Break into base, rescue hostages, and rig it with explosives to blow once you're out" type work.

These peeps sound cool! (Side note: there's a joke hidden in here somewhere. Peeps. Pips. Ah! "Pips's Peeps!" There it is! Found it! Woo!)

The Unkillables kind of remind me of my favorite Real Life military force ever, the intrepid, deadly, creative, loyal, and downright nuts Vietnam-era force, MACV-SOG. "Good in the woods" to the last, They were "their own people," they ran by their own rules regular Army units be damned, and they faced down suicidal missions and sometimes even lived to tell the tale. Oh, and elite? Made up mostly of U.S. Army Green Berets, they had elites from all over the U.S. military. Talk about some extraordinary human beings!

Pips, I'd like to hear more about these Unkillables when you have the time. I think I'm sold on option #3 just to learn more. O.K.,, and I think it serves as one hell of a good "glue" for all of us misfit weirdos to gather together with even more misfit (but also elite) weirdos.

Okay, in looking at PPE and ISP regeneration rates...am I crazy or is the average PC here who goes empty supposed to do nothing but meditate for 2-3 days to get back up to full strength?

Not crazy at all! My, if that's not an old dog in Palladium's junkyard and he sure ain't pretty! In my own Rifts games, I worked my way around this by increasing meditation benefits and taking a page from AD&D (whereupon regardless of the amount of P.P.E./I.S.P. or both you ran on, your character's "mana tank" is always topped off by a single good night's rest - which sometimes could be darned hard to come by out in the woods and dungeons of my worlds! Woo!).

But yeah, I can't stand that vanilla rule - I get how it comes about, because the rule is meant I think for non-elite characters in "standard" Rifts games (wait - is there really such a thing?), but I feel it eats up so much game-time unless altered.

I do love blowing up fascists and slave owners! John Brown time?

also there are a quartet of crows outside my window that have been cawing at me for the past five minuites.

John Brown minus his hanging, I say! Without turning this into a historical game, I definitely wouldn't turn down us earning a big vehicle to carry us all along with the name, "Revenge of John Brown" laser-etched along its hull. =)

 

[EmperorNorton1]

you bet your tuchas Ellis would know about john brown, and that the dude would be in their top three of historical figures, and probably their favorite of all the ones from the old country that used to live on this continent. John Brown's body lies a'moldrin in the grave, but HIS SOUL GOES MARCHIN ON!!!!

this aughtta be us guys. it dosent need to be historical, but rifts is built off of the history of ours. and not all of it will survive, but john brown wont be forgotten that easily.