Keychain #276 - 280

[krrackknut]

Anything possible that can be vaguely defined as 'lock,' 'unlock', 'release,' 'unbind,' and whatnot, eh?


Speaking of which, is it possible to unlock a being from existence? Like say; unbind the Neverborn from existence itself?

 

[Fabricati]

Tsuranis.


If the Lion gets the keys, what can he do with his armor?


Wowwww, ninjad like days ago. Wow.

 

[Quchu]

With the description, it almost sounds like the God of Locks was more than just a god. But an actual Shinma couldn't be bound into anything, either as the God of Locks or the Keys...


So... ;d

Spoiler

Obviously the God of Locks is Ten Winds.

 

[ShadowDragon8685]

Not even the Keys of Creation can bypass perfect mental defenses, and I'd bet she has a few.

Theoretically, the power available to the Keys is not a form of attack, and therefore mental defenses are inapplicable. This is of course extremely dubious in the same manner as other "perfect bypass"ers, and I probably wouldn't allow it myself in a game.

Not to be mean about breaking it to you, but you are definitionally wrong here.

[QUOTE="Exalted Second Edition]

Unstoppable Force, Immovable Object


Charms and supernatural effects often provide effects that succeed without the need for an opposed dice roll. Sometimes, two such effects conflict.


In Exalted, defense has primacy. If an unstoppable force meets an immovable object, the object stays still. An "attack" is an effect that damages or changes the Exalt's body, mind, spirit, or traits. A "defense" is an effect that prevents such an attack. Insofar as the two effects' descriptions conflict, the defense always wins. For example, when using an unblockable attack against a magical parry that blocks even unblockable attacks, the parry wins. If the defense can parry only blockable attacks, the attack may succeed -- the two descriptions do not conflict.


In some cases, neither effect is an attack or defense. Track someone isn't an attack, because finding him doesn't damage or change his body, mind, spirit or traits. Hiding one's tracks isn't an attack, unless it works by directly impairing the tracker's senses. Nor is either effect a defense. Sometimes, both effects are attacks -- for example, an Exalt attacked with a strike that always hits might reply with a defensive Combo that always dodges and hurts the attacker on a successful dodge.


In these cases, make an opposed roll between the dice opols that the Charms support, enhance, or require. If the appropriate Attribute is unclear in either case, roll (user's Essence + Ability) for both Charms. The Charm associated with the winning roll overrides the Charm associated with the losing roll. Some Charms are especially powerful and add bonus successes to this roll.

[/QUOTE]
In this case, using the keys to "open" her mind would constitute changing the Exalt's mind, spirit, or traits. I did, however, make a mistake when I called for a Mental Perfect Defense; this is Shaping, and would need to be shut down with an antiShaping power such as an IPP mirror or that Abyssal CRP mirror. However, even if she did let him Shape her mind to openness, she would effectively find her MPDV and MDDV to be Inapplicable against all Social attacks; but if she has an applicability-trumping mental perfect defense, it would still work.


Everything is defenitionally an attack when it's trying to change something about someone else. Heck, by definition, so is an attempt to render medical aid, though I can't imagine few people would try to aplpy a defense to that. Certainly any attempt to lock or unlock something about them would qualify.

On the other hand, the capacity of all five Keys together is immense and effectively without limit, as it should be. If we speak again in theory, all five Keys together could "unlock" a person's soul from their body, leaving it a blank husk but still alive. If they can unlock, they can lock; so the Lion could use the Keys to take a soul out of a body, then unbind Princess from the Neverborn and lock her into the new body, essentially bringing her back to life. This is a violation of the "no resurrection" rule in the same way that a primordial should hypothetically be able to take a ghost and just shove them into a new body made fresh from scratch. i.e. it would work but have terrible consequences and/or take an entire set of stories to lead up to.

That would be workable from the sound of things. Violating the "No Resurrection" rule, of course, makes it sound like it should fail - or at least have Chejop show up you punch your nose into a rabid jack russel terrier - but it's not as unworkable as a Perfect Breaker. To my knowledge there's only one mechanically "legal" perfect breaker, horrifically written end-running charms which don't function not aside; using an attack which skips Step 2 through 9 of combat resoloution. Which I wouldn't allow, no way, no how.


Anyway, there is actually a sort-of way to achieve 'ressurection' in Exalted. Capture a mortal of the right age, gender, and appropriate looks. Bind your to-be-ressurected ghost into some hellacious magimechanical monstrosity, and strap your human in. Start grafting the mind and soul of the ghost over the human's, and then for good measure shove an Abyssal shard into them when the process is complete. More or less what you suggested, just more roundabout and more likely to fail. But hey, as long as you get an Exalt with the memories and personality of the ghost you wanted ressurected, who gives a toss, right?

He could then almost kill her and give her Abyssal Exaltation, if he wanted. There's lots of ways he can use the Keys to score points with her. And there's lots of other things he can use the Keys for, if he had all of them - unbind himself from his armour, unbind the neverborn from their almost-death, unbind a god from the Mandate of Heaven, unbind Creation from its contact with the Wyld. The God of Locks was essentially something like a shinma, and putting his magic into the Keys made it more powerful. Five magical materials, resonance with the Incarna, Solar authority, concentrated metaphysical yadda yadda. Misho and the other Key holders put a lot of resources into keeping an eye on the lost pieces. The Key holders themselves received special privileges from the Solar Deliberative and Heaven, so that they could be better protected. Even now with Nemen Yi, part of the reason she can be an "blunt" Sidereal is because she has certain extra bureaucratic shields. All for a reason.
This being Exalted, I decided to pull out all the stops on my mcguffins, you see. Someone getting all of them is bad news.

I dunno. Misho getting all of them would be very good news indeed; could lock Creation off from the Underworld and from Malfeas forever, leaving those ghosts and demons to rot. He could unlock Exaltations to tinker under the hood and then go "Holy Sol! What's this big mass of Yozi Snot doing in our emergency mental attack relief systems!? Unbound!"


He could lock the Jade Pleasure Dome, though that might be to invite swift retribution. Instead, perhaps he could unlock the secret to winning the Games, in the hopes that this would snap the Incarnae out of it.


He could unlock the age limit for increased Essence.


Of course, this being Exalted, it could also go horribly awry.

 

[Jukashi]

Not to be mean about breaking it to you, but you are definitionally wrong here.
[QUOTE="Exalted Second Edition]
Unstoppable Force, Immovable Object

[/QUOTE]
Ok, yes. That's true.


Although...


I've already established a character who can interact with the comic as a medium. It is not a reach to think that similar effects could interact with the game; indeed, many Charms could be considered instances of temporarily changing the game's rules - altered target numbers, defense without DV, et cetera.


So the Keys could unbind themselves from the Perfect rules. If their user realized they could.

I dunno. Misho getting all of them would be very good news indeed; could lock Creation off from the Underworld and from Malfeas forever, leaving those ghosts and demons to rot. He could unlock Exaltations to tinker under the hood and then go "Holy Sol! What's this big mass of Yozi Snot doing in our emergency mental attack relief systems!? Unbound!"
He could lock the Jade Pleasure Dome, though that might be to invite swift retribution. Instead, perhaps he could unlock the secret to winning the Games, in the hopes that this would snap the Incarnae out of it.


He could unlock the age limit for increased Essence.

And where would he stop? He is still a Solar. Even if he removed the Great Curse from himself, he's still a man with emotions. Would he unbind people from physical pain? Emotional pain? From mortality? Lock people into being nice to each other, into only ever wanting to be nice to each other? How long can you last, refraining from taking away people's suffering when it would be so, so easy?


Anyway, having them together even to just prevent use makes it easy for someone to steal them.

 

[merle]

So the Keys could unbind themselves from the Perfect rules. If their user realized they could.

...that just sent one hell of a nasty shiver down my spine. Here's hoping the fae don't get ahold of these things...

 

[Tsuranis]

So the Keys could unbind themselves from the Perfect rules. If their user realized they could.

...that just sent one hell of a nasty shiver down my spine. Here's hoping the fae don't get ahold of these things...

The question is, do the Perfect rules have a PD vs attacks against their domain? =D

 

[Jukashi]

The question is, do the Perfect rules have a PD vs attacks against their domain? =D

A rule has no body, mind, spirit or traits, in the game's terminology. So no.

 

[Tsuranis]

The question is, do the Perfect rules have a PD vs attacks against their domain? =D

A rule has no body, mind, spirit or traits, in the game's terminology. So no.

Don't let SHLiHN hear you say that.


Edit: hmm, so rules themselves don't actually gave rules. This is screaming "Shinma" at me. I could just imagine some powerful "being"(?) beyond true comprehension forcing a set of diluted mechanics upon the world.

 

[ShadowDragon8685]

The question is, do the Perfect rules have a PD vs attacks against their domain? =D

A rule has no body, mind, spirit or traits, in the game's terminology. So no.

Don't let SHLiHN hear you say that.


Edit: hmm, so rules themselves don't actually gave rules. This is screaming "Shinma" at me. I could just imagine some powerful "being"(?) beyond true comprehension forcing a set of diluted mechanics upon the world.

Technically this is true. There is definitely a Shinma of the primacy of defense; without whom perfect defenses could not exist. That Shinma does not, itself, possess any perfect defenses, the same as the Shinma of linear action does not, itself, possess any linearity whatsoever.


You could probably try to fuck up that shinma or lock him away with the Keys of Creation. But I'm sure he'll get at least as many flat successes to an Essence roll-off (and there will be an essence roll-off) as the Unconquered Sun gets.


Furthermore, a Fae wouldn't dare try that. A Fae would know that if you fuck with such a primal, important setting trope, you're altering the story completely; destroying it; without that story, the story that led to the events relating to attempting to destroy it couldn't happen. Thus, it's not a story, and a Fae wouldn't want to go to there.


As he said; if they didn't antagonize the Keychain Circle, they wouldn't have existed. Likewise, if you fuck up Exalted, they won't have existed either, and the primacy of defense is one of the definitonal elements of Exalted. (More on this below, from a more rulesy perspective.)

Not to be mean about breaking it to you, but you are definitionally wrong here.
[QUOTE="Exalted Second Edition]
Unstoppable Force, Immovable Object

Ok, yes. That's true.


Although...


I've already established a character who can interact with the comic as a medium. It is not a reach to think that similar effects could interact with the game; indeed, many Charms could be considered instances of temporarily changing the game's rules - altered target numbers, defense without DV, et cetera.


So the Keys could unbind themselves from the Perfect rules. If their user realized they could.

[/QUOTE]
Bzzzt, sorry! Foul play, ten point penalty, Manchester United (or whatever team you favor) loses.


Having gone over this argument many, many times on the WW forums, with such luminares as Holden, Neph, and Jon Chung weighing in and their comments having been duely absorbed, I feel pretty safe in saying that no matter how much anything tries to unbind itself from the rules, there is no such thing as brute-forcing through UFIO like that; and there shouldn't be.


There's only two currently-known legal ways to bypass UFIO; one is the bullshit of bypassing Steps 2 through 9 of combat resoloution (and which will quickly trigger the development an Awareness 1, Essence 2 charm for all splats that permanently upgrades them so that combat steps upon which they have relevant charm activation potential cannot be skipped as a permanent, perfect defense against skipping their steps,) and outright stating "this charm ignores the text found on Exalted page 179, under "Unstoppable Force, Immovable Object."


Which is only rules-legal in the sense that in the game of football, there is no rule against having a sniper posted in the grandstands to take out the opposing team's goalie right before you shoot.


Look at it this way: if the Godspear of All-Searing Noon, an Artifact N/A if ever there was one, in the hands of Sol Invictus; the Unconquered Sun, Ignis Divine himself, can't bypass any kind of UFIO, the Keys of Creation shouldn't.

I dunno. Misho getting all of them would be very good news indeed; could lock Creation off from the Underworld and from Malfeas forever, leaving those ghosts and demons to rot. He could unlock Exaltations to tinker under the hood and then go "Holy Sol! What's this big mass of Yozi Snot doing in our emergency mental attack relief systems!? Unbound!"
He could lock the Jade Pleasure Dome, though that might be to invite swift retribution. Instead, perhaps he could unlock the secret to winning the Games, in the hopes that this would snap the Incarnae out of it.


He could unlock the age limit for increased Essence.

And where would he stop? He is still a Solar. Even if he removed the Great Curse from himself, he's still a man with emotions. Would he unbind people from physical pain? Emotional pain? From mortality? Lock people into being nice to each other, into only ever wanting to be nice to each other? How long can you last, refraining from taking away people's suffering when it would be so, so easy?


Anyway, having them together even to just prevent use makes it easy for someone to steal them.

I did say it could go horribly awry, though. However, I do think that Solars, absent the GC, sane up a lot, lot more than people tend to give them credit for.


As for where would he stop... That's the good thing about Compassion 5 characters. It tends to be easy to convince them that once the exceptional circumstances are done with, you have to put away the Eye of Autochthon for good. For instance; locking off Malfeas and the Underworld, from each other, from the Wyld, and lastly from Creation, then locking away the Eye of Autochthon from ever being found again would be a good start; then use the powers of all five keys to lock away one of the keys (Soulsteel, I choose you!) so that it can never be used again. The power remains there, but inaccessable to anyone without all five keys - by definition a Catch 22.


Although, I should point out that removing people from physical pain would be justified, if they asked him to do so. Obviously, so compassionate a physician as Misho would feel the need to inform them (at length) about the disguised benefits of pain and the risks of never feeling pain again. By the time he's done with the lecture, nobody will want the keys near them.


Emotional pain is a bit harder. It only ever seems to cause drama trauma. Does it have benefits? Perhaps not. Perhaps he would feel compelled to do so; then again, one might argue that about the whole "being nice to each other" bit. There's two good arguments to make there, though:


Argument 1: Is it nessessarily such a bad thing? In the modern world, we tend to take free will as a right of all sentient beings, and regard any attempt to violate it as folly. Yet, we often inflict incredible punishments upon those who do excercize that free will; we throw people in jail for excercizing their free will to decide to rob a bank, we end people's lives if they end someone else's, we imprison them and ruin their lives forevermore if they commit heinous sex crimes, whether it's forcible rape or accidently exposing oneself to the potential that children might see OMG A PENIS whilst desperately choosing to relieve oneself in an alleyway instead of in one's pants...


Would it nessessarily be so wrong to, say, lock away the ability to make the decision to commit murder? To bind people against attempting to subvert their tax dues, so that the social safety net will always be funded, whilst at the same time prohibting theft not strictly required to sustain one's own life?


Argument 2: Being the compassionate, progressive man that he is, Misho would probably recognize the nessessity of respecting free will, even if it leads to bad things, because of the horrendous evil that is violating free will. He doesn't strike me as an ends-justify-the-means objectivist, after all.


As for locking away mortality... Well, some might well argue that that's not such a bad thing. There's plenty of ways for the Exalted to prolong their lives, and for them to prolong those of mortals, but they tend to require individual attention. As (IIRC) Neph said, if you could cure the short lifespan of humans for all humans, most Exalted with Compassion 3 or higher would consider it a task worthy of their afternoon; hell, a month, a year, or even a century of their time. But if you can only restore humans to youthfulness o a one-to-one basis and it takes a whole afternoon, you're probably going to only use it on the ones you really, really give a damn about.


You could, however, do a lot of things that would result in massive, overwhelmingly positive things; unlocking the Enlightenment of all Mortals for example. Locking away Necromancy. Locking away mankind's vulnerabilities to disease and poison, unlocking the incredible environmental fortitude of those races which dwell in the extremes for all humankind. Unlocking the super-healing factors that all Exalted posses for all humanity. Unlocking at least the potential of the lifespan of a Terrrestrial Exalt for all of humanity...


Yeah, you could do a lot of good with the Keys of Creation. The trick is to know to stop when you're ahead, and have the courage to make your final act with the McGuffin one which will prevent the McGuffin from ever being used (at least at full power) ever, ever again.

 

[Tsuranis]

You know that despite the length of that post, Jukashi is just going to call rule #0 on you yeah? =p


It's an interesting thought-exercise though...

 

[Jukashi]

Technically this is true. There is definitely a Shinma of the primacy of defense; without whom perfect defenses could not exist. That Shinma does not, itself, possess any perfect defenses, the same as the Shinma of linear action does not, itself, possess any linearity whatsoever.
You could probably try to fuck up that shinma or lock him away with the Keys of Creation. But I'm sure he'll get at least as many flat successes to an Essence roll-off (and there will be an essence roll-off) as the Unconquered Sun gets.

It seems to me that shinma get overpowered all the time. If they're the rules, they can get suspended to an extent just by doing something sufficiently cool, and further by using magic. The primordials probably designed them to give way to essence use so that they could screw with reality if they wanted to.


Of course, some shinma are likely more powerful than others; the harder it is to break a rule (such as "time goes forward" and "dead stays dead"), the stronger the shinma. Even these two have been overpowered by the primordials, however, as when SWLiHN retrodisintegrated huge parts of Creation - destroying things back through the whole of time. Because of this, I doubt the shinma are stronger than other kinds of primordial works, such as the oath to stay in Malfeas. Yet people have had no trouble assuming that can be overpowered by the Keys together, which was my intention. Similarly, the Neverborn could be considered like shinma themselves, in that they define and sustain Oblivion (in some interpretations); one has no trouble with the idea they can be unbound by the Keys either.

Bzzzt, sorry! Foul play, ten point penalty, Manchester United (or whatever team you favor) loses.
Having gone over this argument many, many times on the WW forums, with such luminares as Holden, Neph, and Jon Chung weighing in and their comments having been duely absorbed, I feel pretty safe in saying that no matter how much anything tries to unbind itself from the rules, there is no such thing as brute-forcing through UFIO like that; and there shouldn't be.

Brute-forcing? Perhaps we should return to the evidence you provided earlier...

[QUOTE="Exalted Second Edition]In Exalted, defense has primacy. If an unstoppable force meets an immovable object, the object stays still. An "attack" is an effect that damages or changes the Exalt's body, mind, spirit, or traits. A "defense" is an effect that prevents such an attack. Insofar as the two effects' descriptions conflict, the defense always wins.

[/QUOTE]
As already mentioned: the rules themselves have no body, mind, spirit or traits! I am finagling for a legal loophole. That's sneaky, not brute force!


... That's my objection.

There's only two currently-known legal ways to bypass UFIO; one is the bullshit of bypassing Steps 2 through 9 of combat resoloution (and which will quickly trigger the development an Awareness 1, Essence 2 charm for all splats that permanently upgrades them so that combat steps upon which they have relevant charm activation potential cannot be skipped as a permanent, perfect defense against skipping their steps,) and outright stating "this charm ignores the text found on Exalted page 179, under "Unstoppable Force, Immovable Object."
Which is only rules-legal in the sense that in the game of football, there is no rule against having a sniper posted in the grandstands to take out the opposing team's goalie right before you shoot.


Look at it this way: if the Godspear of All-Searing Noon, an Artifact N/A if ever there was one, in the hands of Sol Invictus; the Unconquered Sun, Ignis Divine himself, can't bypass any kind of UFIO, the Keys of Creation shouldn't.

It's more like there being no rule against changing the rules, and then doing so so that the goalies can't use their hands, just before you try a strike. Yes, it's against the intent of the rules, would make the game less fun and is all-around a bad idea. I'm not really supporting it. I just find the debate to be invigorating!

Pain, suffering, mortality etc.

Gettin' into more far-reaching philosophical matters, there. Very troublesome.


As for Misho individually, though, there's problems. Convincing someone that it's a good idea to give it up... yes, easy to do that with a Compassion 5 character. But that's an abstract, reasonable, logical thing. Compassion doesn't measure your ability to stick to that: Temperance does. When you try to stick to a long-term ideology, to do what's best in the long run, to keep to your rules, Temperance is what's rolled. Compassion and Valour are your immediate, right-this-minute Virtues, and easily change their wants in a new situation. Those 5 dots are what'll compel him to break his intent to not use the Keys, despite having convinced him to adopt it earlier.


Even without the Curse, Misho would still have his perfect memory; more perfect than the so-called eidetic memory that exists in real life. Whenever he sees someone in pain, he will remember it perfectly, vividly, forever.


I'd go on about Misho's psyche but I want to portray it in the comic instead.

 

[Thanqol]

On pain, suffering, corruption whatever:


These were all concepts invented by the Ebon Dragon. Yes, he's a dick. So let's get rid of them all! No one will ever suffer again!


Someone tried that. It's called Autochthonia. Where the entire place is rotting from the core because none of the gods give a smeg. The Shadow Of All Things knows what he is doing. He didn't invent these concepts because screw you. He invented them because they are the necessary balance to stop a world collapsing on itself. Before the Primordials invented night, all Creation was dying because it couldn't bear the eternal radiance of the sun. Similarly, because the Solars in the First Age didn't have any enemies, any balance to their unbelievable power, they started warring on each other.


There is not too much suffering in the world. There is not enough. (Less dramatically: It is distributed wrong)


Peace is an unworthy goal. It throws the world out of balance.


The Ebon Dragon knew what he was doing.

 

[ShadowDragon8685]

It seems to me that shinma get overpowered all the time. If they're the rules, they can get suspended to an extent just by doing something sufficiently cool, and further by using magic. The primordials probably designed them to give way to essence use so that they could screw with reality if they wanted to.

I don't believe the Primordials created Shinma. I thougt Shinma predated Primordials?


Anyway, while it's true that some concepts give way to Essence use, UFIO, ressurection and time travel are the three big no-nos of Exalted, in descending order of absoluteness. Time travel can give way to a really cool plot with really cool characters and a really cool ST. A campaign could focus on time-travel, Chrono Trigger style, but it must not be something casual; it's either a major plot point or fucking forget it. Ressurection is a bigger no-no. You break Ressurection once in the course of the entire history of Exalted as your game sees it. Breaking no ressurection is like, the culmination of an entire campaign, perhaps to ressurect the Neverborn, or a slain First-Age Solar whose shard is not free, or to bring back Sol Invictus, or perhaps your ubercosmic reward for winning is that you get to make a kamikaze run into Oblivion and come back from it.


You do not break UFIO. Breaking UFIO breaks Exalted.


Seriously. You break UFIO, and you're not playing Exalted anymore, you're playing Fantasy: The Animuu with ridiculously strong splats.

Of course, some shinma are likely more powerful than others; the harder it is to break a rule (such as "time goes forward" and "dead stays dead"), the stronger the shinma. Even these two have been overpowered by the primordials, however, as when SWLiHN retrodisintegrated huge parts of Creation - destroying things back through the whole of time. Because of this, I doubt the shinma are stronger than other kinds of primordial works, such as the oath to stay in Malfeas. Yet people have had no trouble assuming that can be overpowered by the Keys together, which was my intention. Similarly, the Neverborn could be considered like shinma themselves, in that they define and sustain Oblivion (in some interpretations); one has no trouble with the idea they can be unbound by the Keys either.

Some might say that the three spheres cataclysm created the Shinma of time flowing forward, because it is known that in the Primordial war, temporal distortions were common... And that the only way to unlock him is to run your finger down his face.... Like that. (Sorry. )


Anyway, frankly I'd subscribe to the five keys power to do pretty much everything... Except violating UFIO. Well, technically, and "seperating Exaltation from Host," but I'd let them try as a Shaping "you just die" effect which may be perfectly defended against as normal. That would certainly seperate the Exatation from the host.


In all seriousness, it's not impossible that you might break UFIO in-game by strangling the Shinma of Perfect Defenses, but if you do that you are not playing Exalted.

Bzzzt, sorry! Foul play, ten point penalty, Manchester United (or whatever team you favor) loses.
Having gone over this argument many, many times on the WW forums, with such luminares as Holden, Neph, and Jon Chung weighing in and their comments having been duely absorbed, I feel pretty safe in saying that no matter how much anything tries to unbind itself from the rules, there is no such thing as brute-forcing through UFIO like that; and there shouldn't be.

Brute-forcing? Perhaps we should return to the evidence you provided earlier...

illustrate the conflict in question[/URL]. This one uses Singular Escape Strategem, a Charm which was explicitly written with the goal of being an end-run around UFIO as a loophole.


For this scenario, wherein there was a great cluster dogpile upon an obstinate poster wherein I, among such people as the aforementioned Jon Chung, Nephilpal and Holden go to town on why Singular Escape Strategem does not, can never, and should not be made to work, I illustrated the why by posting a scenario wherein the very definition of fear for me - Chejop Kejak, the character in the setting I deeply wish for none of my characters ever to meet, directly launching an attack upon my character of the time.


That should show you how serious I am about this. I accept as self-evident the premise that if Chejop decides that you must die, even if you're Sol Invictus, you die; it's only a question of whether he's willing to pay the butcher's bill to have you offed.


The short and simple of it is that if at any time you attempt to make a character unable to use their perfect defenses, they will be able to perfectly defend against your attempt to take away their perfect defenses. Even if you strangle the shinma of PDs, thus removing PDs from the setting, this doesn't change; they will have the opportunity to reflexively activate any Charm in their arsenal which can defend against that; IPP or CRP, for example. Thus, they will retain their PDs, even if PDs are no longer extant, and will still cause UFIO callbacks.

It's more like there being no rule against changing the rules, and then doing so so that the goalies can't use their hands, just before you try a strike. Yes, it's against the intent of the rules, would make the game less fun and is all-around a bad idea. I'm not really supporting it. I just find the debate to be invigorating!

It is. But I don't think that changing the rules in-game should be permitted.

Gettin' into more far-reaching philosophical matters, there. Very troublesome.

What? I like it!

As for Misho individually, though, there's problems. Convincing someone that it's a good idea to give it up... yes, easy to do that with a Compassion 5 character. But that's an abstract, reasonable, logical thing. Compassion doesn't measure your ability to stick to that: Temperance does. When you try to stick to a long-term ideology, to do what's best in the long run, to keep to your rules, Temperance is what's rolled. Compassion and Valour are your immediate, right-this-minute Virtues, and easily change their wants in a new situation. Those 5 dots are what'll compel him to break his intent to not use the Keys, despite having convinced him to adopt it earlier.

He has to have a decent Temperance. Otherwise a guy with Compassion 5 and perfect recall would decide that the only possible course of action is to bugger off to nowhere and hide from all eternity from others' suffering. He has to have the stones to go on this quest in the first place, and that would, I think, give him the stones to take that leap of no return and lock off the key.


Wouldn't hurt to have a Lunar, another Solar, an Abyssal and Death Knight to help him stay on track when he wavers, though.

Even without the Curse, Misho would still have his perfect memory; more perfect than the so-called eidetic memory that exists in real life. Whenever he sees someone in pain, he will remember it perfectly, vividly, forever.

He could use the Keys to lock away his perfect recall... Granted, that would be really dangerous (not to mention kinda stupid, using an artifact to destroy a power he paid for with BP.)... Or he could develop trans-emotional Charms that lets him overcome and emotionally keep strong, to make peace with what he's seen, or to channel it into getting ripshit pissed at those who perpetrated the injustice.

I'd go on about Misho's psyche but I want to portray it in the comic instead.

Awh. I'm enjoying this.

On pain, suffering, corruption whatever:
These were all concepts invented by the Ebon Dragon. Yes, he's a dick. So let's get rid of them all! No one will ever suffer again!


Someone tried that. It's called Autochthonia. Where the entire place is rotting from the core because none of the gods give a smeg. The Shadow Of All Things knows what he is doing. He didn't invent these concepts because screw you. He invented them because they are the necessary balance to stop a world collapsing on itself. Before the Primordials invented night, all Creation was dying because it couldn't bear the eternal radiance of the sun. Similarly, because the Solars in the First Age didn't have any enemies, any balance to their unbelievable power, they started warring on each other.


There is not too much suffering in the world. There is not enough. (Less dramatically: It is distributed wrong)


Peace is an unworthy goal. It throws the world out of balance.


The Ebon Dragon knew what he was doing.

The guy who wrote the Ebon Dragon would disagree with you. He only does things because screw you. There's nothing 'noble' about the Ebon Dragon, there's no "light cannot exist without darkness and vice versa" about him. He's spite incarnated, an evil shithead who lives only to see ridiculous betrayal happen.


There's nothing about him that promotes balance. He's also not nessessarily for either bad things or good things to happen. He's just a shithead.

 

[krrackknut]

Can someone answer my question if it's possible to unbind the Neverborn from existence itself?

 

[ShadowDragon8685]

Can someone answer my question if it's possible to unbind the Neverborn from existence itself?

Sure, but it's a Shaping effect and thus, pretty easy for them to defend against.


Unless you convince them that they don't want to defend against it. The Neverborn are like that; they either want to destroy everything so that everything is like them, be made whole again, or be undone completely.

 

[Thanqol]

The guy who wrote the Ebon Dragon would disagree with you. He only does things because screw you. There's nothing 'noble' about the Ebon Dragon, there's no "light cannot exist without darkness and vice versa" about him. He's spite incarnated, an evil shithead who lives only to see ridiculous betrayal happen.
There's nothing about him that promotes balance. He's also not nessessarily for either bad things or good things to happen. He's just a shithead.

I disagree with this interpretation because it is boring.


Further: Point on Autochthonia, where because there are no corruption, or spite, or evil shitheads in the divine heirachy there are no heroes either. This is explicitly pointed out. I imagine the Ebon Dragon made the Pattern Spiders Mk.1 sentient and able to hate their job to be an asshole to those guys, but it had the side effect of making them better at their jobs than Autochthon's super-upgraded fate weavers.


Further: Shadow Summons, a spell in B&W Treatise, where a Sorcerer can steal your shadow and your Motivation changes to "Get my Shadow Back". I think that, if we can assume that E.B. came up with shadows, that light can not exist without darkness. Or, in a less morally objective way: Antagonism Makes Things Better.


I consider that to be one of the basic concepts E.B. wrote into Creation.

 

[Jukashi]

Further: Shadow Summons, a spell in B&W Treatise, where a Sorcerer can steal your shadow and your Motivation changes to "Get my Shadow Back".

...


!

The Dragon's Shadow

shadow of himself

became himself

your Motivation changes to "Get my Shadow Back"

That's what he wants.

 

[Persell]

But...he has a shadow. It's the only thing in Malfeas that ever brings darkness.


Also, the whole "no light with out darkness, vis versa" thing is old, tired and boring. The Ebon Dragon exists to serve himself. Worse yet, to serve himself in a way that hurts everyone else the most. He is the closest to "pure evil" that Exalted gets. No shade of gray, just pure, undiluted darkness. He's not in your face evil though, he's the coniving, cowardly and smug kind of evil.


Which amusingly makes him the easiest of the Yozi to screw over.

 

[Jukashi]

The Ebon Dragon is Freedom.


What is freedom? Self-empowerment, self-control. Control of your own destiny, control of your situation, control over anything you want to control. To do what you want, to have what you want, to be what you want. Freedom is to be loosed from all bonds, to be uninfluenced by any desires save your own. So of course he is selfish, for the desire to be free is the most selfish desire of all. Of course he has no compassion, for emotional bonds are as alien to him as any other; of course he has no morality, as that would be a restraint. Of course he is a coward, for his self is all that is real to him.


He is darkness, because that too is a separation; no eye keeps watch. As he passes, and Erembour plays, demons taste freedom. In the dark, they can do anything, hidden. In the dark, they could be doing anything - you have no sight with which to check. Every child knows to fear the shadows in the closet, out the window, under the bed - they could have anything in them. In the darkness, you're free.


But you can't be free without something to be free from. When all was the Wyld, one had no choice but the Wyld. Without something to choose or not choose, one has no choice at all. The Dragon's Shadow was a being of paradox, for true freedom includes the freedom to be bound; he cannot bind himself and stay free, yet cannot say he is truly free if he cannot choose to not be free. So came the Sun, and recall that the Unconquered Sun is not only light, but order, justice, honour, courage. The Dragon helped create law and order, even as he created things such as pain and suffering; as things for he himself to be free from. This is the same reason he chose to bind himself in Malfeas, and why he struggles hardest to escape. He is the ourobourus in reverse, constantly creating the enemies that create him.


Just as Isodoros is might, just as She Who Lives in Her Name personifies the rules, so too the Ebon Dragon is freedom.


Or at least, that's my theory.

 

[Kyeudo]

And I must agree. Nothing in Exalted is black and white. Everything has its redeeming features, it's explaining philosophy of why it is the right way to go.

 

[Thanqol]

And I must agree. Nothing in Exalted is black and white. Everything has its redeeming features, it's explaining philosophy of why it is the right way to go.

Except for mortals because they suck.

 

[krrackknut]

Don't we keep trying even if we're stomped on over and over again?

 

[Thanqol]

Don't we keep trying even if we're stomped on over and over again?

Mortals have never tried to do anything. The moment they do they either die hideously or join the ranks of the inhuman God-Monsters.

 

[Ker'ion]

Mortals have never tried to do anything. The moment they do they either die hideously or join the ranks of the inhuman God-Monsters.

47 sessions in my game and they're still mortals.


They have influence out the ass (for mortals), more Artifacts than they should be allowed (except for their influence levels allowing them perks), a decent amount of Hearthstones (for mortal Essence channelers) and fairly decent lives (if they can keep two psychotic children, a mutant and the armies of an uber-zilla Lunar from wrecking them).


They are also rich as hell and running from the possibility of being Exalted as anything that's not a Dragon-Blooded.


I'm thinking they have three sessions left as puny mortals before I ruin their lives.