Keychain #276 - 280

Question about the keys: they can't actually unlock something that is not there, correct?


For example, would it be possible to unlock Enlightment in a mortal who is dumb as hell? In such a situation, the Keys would have to ADD Enlightment, not simply make it available. Or would it simply unlock the potential for Enlightment in the mortal condition, but not ensure that he actually gets it, since he is thick as a brick?
 
krrackknut said:
Can someone answer my question if it's possible to unbind the Neverborn from existence itself?
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Thankyou, I can now tell myself my own reason for him wanting the keys ^.^


If he unbinds the Neverborn from Creation (which is basically one giant fetter to them), they can sink into Oblivion. Now he still has all of his awesome powers, but no big angry boss telling him to "stop playing with your food" once he has Creation in his grasp =D
 
Except if the Neverborn fall into Oblivion it may gain the strength to devour everything right then and there. This is also pretty much what the Deathlords thing the Neverborn want.
 
Tsuranis said:
krrackknut said:
Can someone answer my question if it's possible to unbind the Neverborn from existence itself?
Click to expand...
Thankyou, I can now tell myself my own reason for him wanting the keys ^.^


If he unbinds the Neverborn from Creation (which is basically one giant fetter to them), they can sink into Oblivion. Now he still has all of his awesome powers, but no big angry boss telling him to "stop playing with your food" once he has Creation in his grasp =D
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Law of Unintended Consequences preemptively declare this to have hilarious consequences.
 
Tsuranis said:
krrackknut said:
Can someone answer my question if it's possible to unbind the Neverborn from existence itself?
Click to expand...
Thankyou, I can now tell myself my own reason for him wanting the keys ^.^


If he unbinds the Neverborn from Creation (which is basically one giant fetter to them), they can sink into Oblivion. Now he still has all of his awesome powers, but no big angry boss telling him to "stop playing with your food" once he has Creation in his grasp =D
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Unfortunately, even if the Neverborn are destroyed, the whole Resonance thing is part and parcel of being an Abyssal. So even if you kill your bosses, your choices are "be a fated death-bringer" or "redemption into a Solar."


Of course, it sounds like your character likes the death-bringer thing, he just wants to be his own Arthas instead of being someone else's Anub'arak, so, good for him?


As for the E.D. being Freedom, that might be his own story, but it's about as convincing as Stalin's was. Sure, Stalin might have been stabbed in the back, but that doesn't remotely forgive or allow the monstrosities he visited on the world.
 
ShadowDragon8685 said:
As for the E.D. being Freedom, that might be his own story, but it's about as convincing as Stalin's was. Sure, Stalin might have been stabbed in the back, but that doesn't remotely forgive or allow the monstrosities he visited on the world.
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Every major tragedy that has ever occured can be traced back to one man's freedom of choice.


Just because the Ebon Dragon has redeeming qualities doesn't make him less a villian. It just makes him more interesting. The Exalted owe their very victory over the Primordials, because without the Ebon Dragon to argue for free will, the gods could never have backstabbed the Primordials.
 
I wouldn't go so far as to say EB has a redeeming quality. He is a selfish dick. Even if he is freedom, that means he had to choose to be a selfish dick. Which makes him an even bigger dick.
 
ShadowDragon8685 said:
Tsuranis said:
krrackknut said:
Can someone answer my question if it's possible to unbind the Neverborn from existence itself?
Click to expand...
Thankyou, I can now tell myself my own reason for him wanting the keys ^.^


If he unbinds the Neverborn from Creation (which is basically one giant fetter to them), they can sink into Oblivion. Now he still has all of his awesome powers, but no big angry boss telling him to "stop playing with your food" once he has Creation in his grasp =D
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Unfortunately, even if the Neverborn are destroyed, the whole Resonance thing is part and parcel of being an Abyssal. So even if you kill your bosses, your choices are "be a fated death-bringer" or "redemption into a Solar."
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Except that we aren't talking about a Deathknight, we're talking about a Deathlord. I'm not aware of them having any form of analogue to resonance.
 
Weimann said:
Or would it simply unlock the potential for Enlightment in the mortal condition, but not ensure that he actually gets it, since he is thick as a brick?
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The Solar charm that blows peoples mind open and makes them enlightened has no intelligence requirement in the target.


Neither do most of the other means of enlightening mortals. Stupidity is no impediment to enlightenment.
 
Dahak said:
Weimann said:
Or would it simply unlock the potential for Enlightment in the mortal condition, but not ensure that he actually gets it, since he is thick as a brick?
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The Solar charm that blows peoples mind open and makes them enlightened has no intelligence requirement in the target.


Neither do most of the other means of enlightening mortals. Stupidity is no impediment to enlightenment.
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I feel quite confident in saying that, in fact, there are some avenues to enlightenment which require stupidity.
 
jeriausx said:
I wouldn't go so far as to say EB has a redeeming quality. He is a selfish dick. Even if he is freedom, that means he had to choose to be a selfish dick. Which makes him an even bigger dick.
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And he gave the power of freedom to the world in order to be a dick and make everyone miserable about being enslaved.


Still, he gave the world freedom. And fate. And colour. And night. And pain. All of these things may have been done for the purposes of being a dick but that does not stop them from being fundamental, necessary conditions of the world. And all these things have a use and function above and beyond 'be a dick to everyone' - even if E.D. didn't plan it that way.
 
I'm not saying freedom is bad, I'm just sating I wouldn't call it a redeeming quality of him. He is out and out a dick with no redeeming qualities for himself[/i, he is a malignant freedom. Freedom yes, but bad freedom 9I know that sounds weird).


Take, for example, a mass murderer. He kills everything he sees for shits and giggles. That means he also kills rapists, other murderers etc. whenever he happens to comes across one. This is a "good" thing, but is in no way redemptive of the psycho. The Ebon Dragon just takes it to a whole new level.


So, while I will agree that freedom is good, the Ebon Dragon, himself, has no redeeming qualities at all. In fact it would be against his very nature to. Any redemptive trait would be based on moral PoV (of some kind), which by his very nature he can not have.


Now, this does lead to the possibility of a Fiend introducing a sense of benevolent freedom in the the Ebon Dragon, rather then the malicious freedom that he embodies. As in taking the choice that does the least damage to others when given the choice as opposed to his current "Fuck over every one else as much as possible even if i have to go out of my way, while benefiting myself as much as possible."
 
Well, on the other hand the Ebon Dragon recognizes Morality for what it is: A means of social control. He was there when his mates decided that mortals should think casual murder was a bad thing. This isn't an abstract, cosmic truth to him; it was a thing he and a bunch of his mates decided should be a feature when they were building the world. He sure as heck doesn't have to, or want to obey it any more than you would think in terms of C++ during your ordinary day.


"Redeeming Features", as you put them, are a social blind he helped come up with as a stabilizing influence on the world. He's very kind in that he encourages people to put aside their limited mortal morality and think in terms of Primordial freedom. Nothing is real and everything is permitted.
 
You could probably introduce a slow change towards benevolence with Charms that help other people be free, with the justification that more freedom for others = more variety = more choices = more freedom for you. To use the old D&D terms, you can upshift him from Chaotic Evil to Chaotic Neutral. Then maybe, someday, on up to Chaotic Good. Slim chance, though.


A lot of moral and ethical systems can be justified in enlightened self-interest, which the Ebon Dragon is supposed to operate on to an extent.
 
I hate to undo most of the past 3 or so pages, but ShadowDragon's argument is flawed.


By my interpretation, he's putting UFIO as the One Most Important Rule Which No Others Can Break. While I concede that it's a very important rule, there's something else very basic that supplants this.


1) The object of the game is for everybody to have fun


1a) More often than not, "no" isn't fun.


So if someone who has all 5 Keys wants to go all Sands of Destruction on Creation, I find zero reason to say "no". Someone who wants to undo the Primordials would have a tougher time (since they created the God of Locks) but a compelling argument would do it for me.


Of course, I've always considered the Keys' power as Pattern Spider Touch without restriction, so maybe that affects me.
 
"Unstoppable Force, Immovable Object". It's a charm interaction rule which states that if two charms conflict, one of them is an attack, and one of them is a defense, the defense wins. It really only matters with perfect attacks vs. perfect defenses- the perfect defense always wins.
 
Someone who wants to undo the Primordials would have a tougher time (since they created the God of Locks) but a compelling argument would do it for me.
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Really? The Primordials also created the gods, who created the Exalted and stomped on them, so I don't really see "since they created it" as a valid arguement for immunity.
 
jeriausx said:
As long as we can all agree the Ebon Dragon is currently a horrible horrible person...persons? :P
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Only according to your fake mortal morality. That fake mortal morality designed as a means to KEEP YOU DOWN which he was kind enough to give you a way out of.
 
Tsuranis said:
Someone who wants to undo the Primordials would have a tougher time (since they created the God of Locks) but a compelling argument would do it for me.
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Really? The Primordials also created the gods, who created the Exalted and stomped on them, so I don't really see "since they created it" as a valid arguement for immunity.
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See? Compelling argument.


The reasoning was that the Primordials would be smart enough to know how to keep its creation under their control if it decided to go rouge.
 
See? Compelling argument.


The reasoning was that the Primordials would be smart enough to know how to keep its creation under their control if it decided to go rouge.
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If their creations go rouge then we start questioning their sexuality.


But the Primordials were smart enough to keep their creation under control! Humanity had free will, but they also had a kill switch (Essence 4 humans instantly become Gods, and are thus Geased). Even a race as useless as humans had a kill trigger to prevent them ever becoming credible threats. The Primordials weren't dumb, they were just the victims of hundreds of respawning hunter-killer missiles fired at them by their so-called comrade.
 
Thanqol said:
If their creations go rouge then we start questioning their sexuality.
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Questioning sexuality? In Exalted? No questions about it. The default entry for "Sexuality?" in Exalted seems to be "Enthusiastic!"
 
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