First VS Second

[Ker'ion]

CW, Thorn...


Even though I'm sure this is quite enjoyable for both of you, EM is a quite intelligent person.


He may be obsessive about game, dyslexic, and agoraphobic, but under his idiot attitude, he can actually use that grey matter he hides between his ears to great effect. :roll:


alohahaha -


Thank you for getting us back on topic.


Now about this DV junk...

 

[Flagg]

Hey, EM: Spout whatever kind of crap you want on these forums, but don't keep posting 50 nested quotes like that. Take a second to trim it down to the part you're actually replying to.


-S

 

[Ker'ion]

Hey, Still.


EM's not the only one who does that.

 

[memesis]

Now about this DV junk...

Here is what has actually, substantially changed about defense.


1. Your DV is based on the things you would have previously been rolling in 1E - Dex + Dodge, Dex + Melee, etc.  Except that instead of rolling, you now get the average number of successes you WOULD have rolled.


2. You get it all the time, not just when you have an action or when you can build a dice pool via Charms.


3. However, you incur penalties to your DV based on your own actions, and based on what happens to you.  For example, if five guys fire arrows at you, it's harder to deflect than if one guy fired one arrow.  It's also harder to block if one guy fires five arrows at you.  Also, making a full-out attack against someone makes your defense weaker than standing there trading one blow at a time.


4. You can end up with no defense very quickly, just like you could in 1E.  The difference here is that you end up without a defense because you overextended yourself or because the other guy is putting out extra effort, not because you guessed 5 parries were enough and he threw 7 attacks.  It's no longer an arms race to have more defensive dice-pools available.


So.  How is this "passive"?  I guess it depends on what you mean by "passive":


- The Exalt just stands there, taking no explicit defensive actions, and arrows somehow plink off his orichalcum nipples.  FALSE.  The Exalt is presumed to be ducking, weaving, swinging his weapon about, or otherwise trying to keep himself alive in the middle of making his own attacks.


- The Exalt's DV is a truly static value, and cannot be lowered by circumstantial factors.  FALSE.  You can very quickly drain out your own DV without anyone else interfering.  Conversely, smart tactical moves by your opponent can leave you without much (or any) DV.


- DV cannot be adjusted upwards.  FALSE.  Your Excellencies can buy dice or successes which can improve DV.  You can stunt to get some dice to roll.  In both cases, the mechanical benefits are just the same as 1E - you don't roll any fewer or any more dice, and one of your successes still means one less success for your attacker.


- DV removes your ability to roll really well (or really poorly) on a defense.  TRUE, to a point.  You can still roll bonus dice acquired from a Charm or stunt, and you can still have a lower-than-expected DV because of what the other guy did.  The differences here are that you can no longer really "botch" a defense, and the truly random factors that modify DV will only ever be positive ones - the negative factors are always ones you could have accounted for.  So you are never "screwed out of a defense by the dice".


- Not rolling defenses is not fun!  TRUE OR FALSE.  This is a personal opinion.  But it definitely speeds the game up, and it definitely makes your personal choice of tactics the deciding factor, rather than how well a bunch of 10-sided dice turned out.  If you like being a passive participant in combat and letting luck run your life, DV is bad for you.  If you like knowing that your fate is pretty much in your hands, DV is good for you.

 

[wordman]

He may be obsessive about game' date=' autistic, and agoraphobic, but under his idiot attitude, he can avctually use that grey matter he hides between his ears to great effect.[/quote']

By the same token, no one knows you are a genius either, unless you demonstrate it. EM has been doing everything possible to demonstrate exactly the opposite.


And, as far as that goes, someone... anyone... who's a dick on the internet is a dick on the internet. Why would I care what he is "really like"? I'm never going to meet him. My only interaction with him will be as a dick on the internet. If I tell you that I'm really not a pretentious attention whore "in real life", why would you possibly give a fuck? To the vast majority of you, all you'll ever see of me is my, for lack of a better word, avatar and you are completely justified to assume, for all practical purposes, that I am my avatar.

 

[Cthulhu_Wakes]

Exactly.

 

[Ker'ion]

But grammar problems do not an idiot make.


Unfortunetely for your argument, I see attacking a person for who he is as being the idiots way out of an argument when you don't think that decisive reactionary debate will work.


It's the Win-Lose/ Lose-Lose mentality:


If I can't win, then you can't either.


Wasn't this what TSA used to do?


GROW UP A LITTLE, PEOPLE!!!

 

[Ker'ion]

So, esentially, DV is just d20 AC with stunts?


So,...


DV is junk.

 

[Thorn Darkblade]

Kinda like AC with stunts, but, it speeds up combat and makes things streamlined...I hated having to have a million and one unneccesary rolls

 

[Persell]

So, esentially, DV is just d20 AC with stunts?
So,...


DV is junk.

Say that DV is the d10 version of AC.  Exactly what is wrong with that?

 

[Flagg]

Why is this thread in the Off-Topic forum anyway?


-S

 

[DarkProphet]

Why is this thread in the Off-Topic forum anyway?
-S

You'd have to ask the midget, since he's the one who put it here.

 

[memesis]

So, esentially, DV is just d20 AC with stunts?
So,...


DV is junk.

So, essentially, no.  But I'm tired of arguing to people who aren't interested in listening.

 

[Ker'ion]

Say that DV is the d10 version of AC.  Exactly what is wrong with that?

I actually like the d20 system, but I don't like the way that AC works.


I prefer the first edition Exalted setup for dodge, parry, and soak.

So, esentially, DV is just d20 AC with stunts?
So,...


DV is junk.

So, essentially, no.  But I'm tired of arguing to people who aren't interested in listening.

Interestingly enough, I haven't seen much arguing over DV, just an annoying disrespect for those who seem to have a view you don't espouse.  How American of you.

 

[Cthulhu_Wakes]

Seriously, why does everyone not like it!? It makes sense! I'm looking at it right before my eyes and it makes sense!

 

[Flagg]

I actually like the d20 system, but I don't like the way that AC works.
I prefer the first edition Exalted setup for dodge, parry, and soak.

You still seem to be ignorant of 2nd Edition mechanics. DV has nothing to do with soak. At all.

How American of you.

Nice ad hominem. Didn't you just criticize someone for that on another thread?


-S

 

[Jakk Bey]

Admittedly, folks did take a side trip to react to EM's trolling, but we have been addressing your issues.  We just don't agree with you.  


You can like it or dislike it, but what most folks here are asking you to do is try it before making your decision.  And lambasting EM for his general belligerance, when he opened this can of worms.


EM is your boy.  I can understand you wanting to stick up for the little feller, but he hasn't bothered with showing us his self vaunted intelligence by defending his points really.


You have at least made the attempt, and that's fine.  Again, folks are just saying that it speeds up combat significantly, and it works well.  If a LOT of folks are telling you that, and they've played both rules sets, doesn't it occur to you, that it might be worth trying out?


I was very skeptical of the changes myself.  But they work.  And the DV system just breaks down the mechanics of Dodge or Parry to automatic defaults, as opposed to continually bogging down play with rolls, and the system rewards folks who strategize more than just bull their way through.  It makes combat more involved, and it rewards folks who pay attention, and the tick system brings not only new elements of strategy, but keeps your players from wandering off, because the action is sped up--one the biggest problems with the WW system in general.

 

[Ker'ion]

Nope, only offered it on this thread, you just moved the thread.

I actually like the d20 system, but I don't like the way that AC works.


I prefer the first edition Exalted setup for dodge, parry, and soak.

You still seem to be ignorant of 2nd Edition mechanics. DV has nothing to do with soak. At all.

...


"I prefer the first edition Exalted setup for dodge, parry,..."


I don't like DV, I like first edition.


The soak, I added on as an additional gripe.  It was unfortunately interpreted as being in combination with the other factors when compared to DV.  I appologize for the inference.


Now that I think about it, the whole soak problem is moot anyway.  I mainly have a problem with the Hardness ratings being so bloody high.


But the hardness/soak object is not a part of the current argument.


I don't like having a Dodge or Parry that is automatic (unless it's due to a charm).  Therefore, I will play second edition once I find a group to game it with (since EM still hates the ticks system and stopped listening to my explaination anymore), but will alter it to use the first edition dodge and parry system.


I don't think my players will mutiny over keeping the old dodge and parry rolls.


Other than that, I have no problem thus far with second edition.

 

[Cthulhu_Wakes]

Well the hardness thing I think is to also to show the 'invulnerability' of Exalts to mortals, I guess.

 

[Ker'ion]

But the hardness is not a natural side effect of normal Exalts, but their armor.


And, yes, I know EM is being a beligerent ass.  Once he makes a decision, divine intervention cannot change his mind.

I was very skeptical of the changes myself.  But they work.  And the DV system just breaks down the mechanics of Dodge or Parry to automatic defaults' date=' as opposed to continually bogging down play with rolls, and the system rewards folks who strategize more than just bull their way through.  It makes combat more involved, and it rewards folks who pay attention, and the tick system brings not only new elements of strategy, but keeps your players from wandering off, because the action is sped up--one the biggest problems with the WW system in general.[/quote']
I can see how the ticks system speeds things up, but I don't like the idea of auto-defaulting a roll just to speed up combat.


If I ever play d20 again, I will take out the +10 modifier and add the d20 roll to make it more realistic.


Though I've got a better chance of playing my 'Cyberia' d% game than running a d20 game again anytime soon.

 

[Cthulhu_Wakes]

Well if you look at the armor, it's pretty damn nice. Besides, I'd expect my Jade or Orichalcum or Moonsilver heavy plate to stop a mortal or lesser Exalts sword without a scratch.

 

[Jakk Bey]

You prefer "I guess I try to hit him, and won't defend myself"?


That's more realistic to you?


Don't watch a lot of boxing do you?

 

[Cthulhu_Wakes]

I'm personally waiting for the Matador vs. De La Hoya!

 

[Ker'ion]

You prefer "I guess I try to hit him, and won't defend myself"?
That's more realistic to you?


Don't watch a lot of boxing do you?

That's why you split dice pools.


And, no, I don't watch boxing at all.  I prefer participating in a melee in the SCA to watching two people try to


bludgeon each other with padded gloves.

 

[Jakk Bey]

No. That's why you have DV.  It represents a skilled or pathetic fighter who can either cover themselves, or just stand out there like a sore thumb.


It's a mechanic to represent that you can attack and still be aware of the situation.  It takes a lot of the rolling out of the way, and represents the skill of the fighter at moving, weaving, or parrying, as a part of their fighting stance.  It represents not just standing there like a log--you can go all out, and it will reduce your DV, like laying on a haymaker, but it opens you up.  


I think it is a much better representation of combat.  It allows you to have a ringing of steel between two fighters, and not the clumsy and stilted rolls for attack, parry, parry, parry, parry, parry, parry, parry, attack, attack, attack, attack, that made combat deadly boring, and stilted at times.