[Emperors of the Fading Suns] [Emperors of the Fading Suns] OOC Thread

[JayTee]

Nope, a non-Solar could look at a Solar Circle spell, understand it and comprehend it, but be unable to cast it wholly and purely because their essence isn't compatible with it. They can hit Essence 5 / Occult 5, just like the Solars can.


Note to self: Build artifact to bypass this restriction. I don't care much for sorcery/necromancy, but others (@CrazyIvan) do.

 

[cyl]

But could an Occult 3 non solar look at a solar circle spell understand it and comprehend it ?


I will say unlikely, you are probably going to say yes, if the roll is good enough.


Difference of interpretation.


The only thing we will agree on is that you have to use magic to surpass your inner limits... and even then, sometimes you just can't go past a certain point... or you'll get in trouble trying to go past that (see DB and SMA )

 

[xarvh]

@cyl: does keen sight allow you to look through a door?

 

[cyl]

If there's a keyhole or a space between the door and the ground, then I can probably look 500 yards past that door at night


IIRC Ankss is all covered up with some sort of weird fog, but I would hope the weather is not that thick.


But le'ts make this simple: is long range observation an option or do we have to infiltrate Ankss ?

 

[Arynne]

@Arynne : so we're still in the long range observation phase, but apparently the fog is restricting us from seeing too much.
I thought about using Traceless Passage (to cover my tracks since you can fly and leave none), and while on the ground MIT + the stealth group charm so you can benefit from whatever stealth effect Malek can wrap himself with.

So noted. Flicker has several forms suited for stealth, either flying (mospid, serpent) or creeping (lizard, boa constrictor).

 

[cyl]

If this fog thing seriously capping enhanced vision then flying will be mostly useless, she won't see shit from above either.


You may want to bring the creep on... but you know we could probably simply dress up like slaves and sneak in and out.


Just with a clever stunt, a little mud, a few torn rags and Overlooked Presence, only spirits and dudes with essence sight may become aware that something is wrong with us.


Talking about essence sight... does Flicker have spirit detecting capabilities ?

 

[Arynne]

Talking about essence sight... does Flicker have spirit detecting capabilities ?

EYE OF THE CAT


Cost: 6m; Mins: Perception 4, Essence 2; Type: Simple


Keywords: Combo-OK, Fury-OK


Duration: One scene


Prerequisite Charms: Any Perception Excellency


Stewards can see the impossible. The character automatically notices anything within eyeshot, earshot or scent range that is not currently a valid target for a Perception roll based on one of those senses. If it denies the Lunar’s player any roll whatsoever to notice or detect something, the Lunar sees it perfectly. This includes immaterial beings such as gods and demons. It also covers targets so perfectly invisible, scentless or silent that there is no chance for a Perception roll. Against targets that the character could notice, even if the possibility is slight, this Charm provides no benefit. Add the Lunar’s (Essence) in automatic successes when another Charm contests this effect.

 

[cyl]

Right, then it's up to you.


We both go in human form covered by EOPM, or you go in alone in lizard form, and I can still cover you with EOPM and no one will naturally notice you and since you can spot spirits, you can probably navigate through them while I watch your back and am ready to... uh... well fall back as you fly your way out of Ankss.


Your call.

 

[xarvh]

The fog is an obstacle to your sight, it is an object between you and what you want to see.


The Swampers don't seem affected, you should have noticed by now.


You are infiltrating Ankss already.


A bat could fly and use its sonar, albeit with an environmental malus, which shouldn't be a big deal for an exalt.

 

[Arynne]

Flicker doesn't have a bat as one of her forms, but with the ST's permission, I could purchase another dot of Heart's Blood and say she did a little hunting in preparation for this mission. (Given that they saw the heavy fog last time, it wouldn't be unreasonable.)

 

[CrazyIvan]

It's kind of the same logic used with access to the Circles of Sorcery / Necromancy and the different types of exalts.

Note this is "access" not "understanding". Cunning Fangs can probably identify, discuss, and probably even expand upon the principles of a Solar Circle spell - it's just not within her ability to cast them, because casting them requires a Charm she doesn't have. In the same manner, Fangs can understand the idea of being where a foe's blade is not, or leaping tall buildings in a single bound - she can even draw you some nice diagrams - but she can't do them. It's important to remember that charms are expressly a Thing in Creation, not just a rules construct. Gated access to abilities is part of the natural order.


For that matter, Siham, having not done the Initiations, can't cast a damned thing. It is however extremely unlikely that he can't discuss spellcraft with Fangs at all.

Nope, a non-Solar could look at a Solar Circle spell, understand it and comprehend it, but be unable to cast it wholly and purely because their essence isn't compatible with it. They can hit Essence 5 / Occult 5, just like the Solars can.
Note to self: Build artifact to bypass this restriction. I don't care much for sorcery/necromancy, but others (@CrazyIvan) do.

This is entirely what Fangs is up to. The only known, workable path (in her mind) to Solar Circle for a Lunar is to let a Primordial tinker with her Essence. The Yozi and the Neverborn are out of the question, which leaves Gaia, Big K, and Autobot. Autobot is utterly out of theme, she doesn't trust Big K (and indeed blames her for her current state...) - which leaves Gaia.


The artifact she's going to try to build with Siham is meant to make sure there's still enough of Fangs left at the end of that to get the job done.


Wind's Whispered Secrets, another Lunar I played who was Xarvh's mate in that game, had another plan, but self-immolation feels more like Fangs' style.

But could an Occult 3 non solar look at a solar circle spell understand it and comprehend it ?
I will say unlikely, you are probably going to say yes, if the roll is good enough.

The Salinan Working expressly provides a mechanism where an Occult 0 Non-Solar can theoretically look at a spell - or a spider web - and come to understand the nature of Sorcery.

 

[xarvh]

@Arynne: fine, no problem, expand your shapes library.


Regarding sorcery, my idea that it could be like describing colour to a blind person.


It can be understood on an intellectual level, it can even be reasoned upon and a sufficiently smart person can even make hypothesis on the limits and capabilities of such sense, but it's just not the same thing.

 

[CrazyIvan]

@Arynne: fine, no problem, expand your shapes library.
Regarding sorcery, my idea that it could be like describing colour to a blind person.


It can be understood on an intellectual level, it can even be reasoned upon and a sufficiently smart person can even make hypothesis on the limits and capabilities of such sense, but it's just not the same thing.

That's a good way to put it.


You can do some really sophisticated analysis of the wavelengths near 475 nm. But that doesn't mean you understand Blue.

 

[JayTee]

The only thing we will agree on is that you have to use magic to surpass your inner limits... and even then, sometimes you just can't go past a certain point... or you'll get in trouble trying to go past that (see DB and SMA )

Wrong, at least for Solars. They explicitly have no limits to their power or capability. If I wanted to execute the Unconquered Sun as a warning to the other gods to do their damned job, I can do it. If I want to drag the broken, bleeding body of the Mask of Winters in front of the Neverborn and tell them to stay off my damn lawn, I can do it.


There is literally no goal an Essence 5 Solar Exalt cannot attain.

This is entirely what Fangs is up to. The only known, workable path (in her mind) to Solar Circle for a Lunar is to let a Primordial tinker with her Essence. The Yozi and the Neverborn are out of the question, which leaves Gaia, Big K, and Autobot. Autobot is utterly out of theme, she doesn't trust Big K (and indeed blames her for her current state...) - which leaves Gaia.


The artifact she's going to try to build with Siham is meant to make sure there's still enough of Fangs left at the end of that to get the job done.

I am almost 100% certain that there is an artifact that lets Mnemom wield Celestial Sorcery. I could easily build a similar artifact for you, bypassing that whole ordeal.

 

[Arynne]

I am almost 100% certain that there is an artifact that lets Mnemom wield Celestial Sorcery. I could easily build a similar artifact for you, bypassing that whole ordeal.

Demon of the Second Circle only, through an artifact called the Emerald Thurible that allows Essence channelers to summon demons one Circle higher than would normally be allowed.


Her mother did have full access to Celestial Sorcery, from her possession of the Scarlet Mantle...but I'm pretty sure the Mantle of Brigid is a N/A Artifact!

 

[JayTee]

Yeah, but Xarvh said that building an N/A artifact is only 4 project points, so it's do-able. I could probably build a custom charm to reduce that amount further, too.

 

[xarvh]

I said that building a specific artifact was 4 pp.


Creation is a n/a artifact, but it will take you more than 4pp to build one.


Also, an Ess 5 Solar CAN'T do all the shit they want.


Maybe an Ess 10, and even then only if the other Ess 10 Solars/Abyssals/GSP don't get in the way.

 

[JayTee]

Non-Elder Exalts (Essence 5 or less) and their armies killed the primordials, the authors of reality. The Primordials literally could not die, but the Exalts all said "fuck that noise" and killed them anyway.


After that, telling them "you can't do X" seems pretty foolish.

 

[cyl]

I am pretty sure that they were not below essence 5, considering the stats of 3rd circle demons.


Plus IIRC they killed the first ones by surprise


And when you mention "and their armies" you are talking lunars mates, crazy kung fu siddies, and thousands of DB.


If solars with essence 5 solars could do anything, then how come most essence 8+ solars got their asses served so bad by a bunch of puny DB and a few siddies ?

 

[xarvh]

The Exalts did not, "among other things", kill the Primordials.


The Exalts were created for the sole and only purpose of killing the Primordials.


The Exalts are a weapon, a very specific and incredibly powerful weapon, a weapon that to fulfil its purpose must be able to do many things, but a weapon nonetheless, and with one and only one purpose.


The Unconquered Sun himself (or Lytek) couldn't have struck Big K the way an Exalt did.

 

[cyl]

Okay so... I'm building my xp expenditure sheet.


I've got 143 xp available, I don't plan on taking artifacts until I somehow get mine back (at least the cape) so here's what I've got so far:


- finishing Mantis style 32xp


- Soul Enlightening Beneficence for 10 xp; meaning that between Malek & Flicker, we can create the Tiger Shadows ninja clan ... and that's going to be useful for taking down them enemy exalts


- Dodge and dodge charms (for perfect defense) 34xp


I'm still 67xp large... any bright ideas ?


I was thinking of digging deeper in Larceny and disguises and stealing charms to collect info more easily and build stronger and safer networks of connections assuming several identities, but perhaps I could spend a few xp on Bureaucracy or War stuff to speed things up, slow our enemies down and topple governments in order to expand our empire faster.

 

[Arynne]

Tiger Shadows Ninja Clan is an awesome name.

 

[CrazyIvan]

If solars with essence 5 solars could do anything, then how come most essence 8+ solars got their asses served so bad by a bunch of puny DB and a few siddies ?

The same way you can take down Evander Holyfield with something smaller than can be seen with the naked eye.


And being capable of doing anything doesn't mean you're invincible.

 

[CrazyIvan]

The Exalts did not, "among other things", kill the Primordials.
The Exalts were created for the sole and only purpose of killing the Primordials.


The Exalts are a weapon, a very specific and incredibly powerful weapon, a weapon that to fulfil its purpose must be able to do many things, but a weapon nonetheless, and with one and only one purpose.


The Unconquered Sun himself (or Lytek) couldn't have struck Big K the way an Exalt did.

They also built a sweet mass transit system when they were done. And got all manner of creative with what they did with their servants. That counts as "among other things"

 

[CrazyIvan]

Yeah, but Xarvh said that building an N/A artifact is only 4 project points, so it's do-able. I could probably build a custom charm to reduce that amount further, too.

As mentioned, we don't have the cost of what something like the Mantle would be, and Mnemon only has the Emerald Thurible, which just makes her the stupidest fucking sorceress in all Creation.


Beyond that, artifacts can be taken away. They can be destroyed. They are not intrinsically part of a character. Cunning Fangs is trying to re-write herself. She just needs someone with superuser privileges to help.