CrazyIvan
Two Thousand Club
Alright, not deliberately trying to start an argument, but there's some stuff in OOC I'm replying to to clarify where my head is at.
The problem is you are taking your, or Malek's, premises as the ground truth. They aren't necessarily.
Among other things, Malek's current situation, and his death, present a very rare opportunity for a natural experiment. Remember, Siham isn't the only high Int scholar in the group
Indeed. I actually play her as being quite rational - but that doesn't mean she's cold. And she's rational from a particularly...sideways...way of viewing the world, and a set of premises.
You've elected to use an analogy where there is an expressly good and evil binary.
This is the fundamental problem I have. Disagreeing with Malek seems to be parsed by you, both OOC and IC, as siding with the forces of badness. There's dozens of way to frame the difference between Malek and Fangs. A difference of whether the ends justify the means, whether a duty to Creation is to the concept of Creation, it's people, or each individual person, the Divine Right of Solars, etc. All of them difference in approach, or degree, shades of grey.
As long as this continues to be framed as "Black vs. White", with Fangs wearing the black hat, it's impossible to resolve. Because she's not evil. She's not a Sith. She's not the bad guy.
If we must go with a Star Wars analogy, Malek is more...Yoda, and Fangs is Mace Windu - a Jedi who recognizes that sometimes the right end means some ugliness and violence.
It puts me in an impossible position. Malek is there giving her the same hateful look he gives the Deathknight who tortured him, is the pet project of the same Deathknight and the Mask of Winters, has been tortured and mind-bent for an indeterminate period of time and being like "Hey, what happened, and if I let you go, I need you to promise not to tear into me" is 'abusive extortion'?
Anyway, post incoming. Fangs is trying Plan...E. Let us hope we don't get to Plan M.
I'll touch on this a little further down in the post.cyl said:
You kinda do. From your perspective freeing Malek is the best course of action. It is possible someone might disagree with that assessment. And with the ratcheting up of concepts like Malek hating Fangs, its entirely possible that it isn't the best course of action for her.
The problem is you are taking your, or Malek's, premises as the ground truth. They aren't necessarily.
This is not necessarily guaranteed, and beyond that, we've already stated that Fangs has a decent inductive argument that Malek can't be abyssalized, because none of the Abyssals yet encountered have been ex-Solars. Fangs' chief interest is the defeat of the Neverborn and the freeing of her mate.
Among other things, Malek's current situation, and his death, present a very rare opportunity for a natural experiment. Remember, Siham isn't the only high Int scholar in the group
You should try telling her this IC. Also "You're temporarily useful in the coming war" is not exactly a resounding offer of peace. Especially to someone who has expressed IC that she dislikes the occasional tendency to treat her like a tool, or a court sorceress.
Beyond the emotional reasons, Fangs has rational reasons too. She is an extremely long term thinker - in her mind, replacing a Deathlord with an equally dangerous Solar isn't a "win". Malek's state is currently a massive unknown, and she doesn't particularly trust that whatever the Mask was doing to him isn't "almost done". He can't really vouch for his own sanity. He can't bind himself sufficiently so if he's wrong and he *is* broken that it doesn't blow back on Fangs and Mirror.
This is partially correct, but it's also a rational choice on her part. She's looking for some evidence that freeing him isn't just pulling the pin out of a grenade. His utter unwillingness to meet her halfway on anything, to even acknowledge that she might be hesitant, or that there's some cause to worry about him once he's free, isn't so much convincing her of anything other than she's still dealing with a moral absolutist Solar whose been spending some time getting mindbent by a mind-boggling powerful servant of the Neverborn.
xarvh said:
Indeed. I actually play her as being quite rational - but that doesn't mean she's cold. And she's rational from a particularly...sideways...way of viewing the world, and a set of premises.
Except *he's a Solar*. Taking himself out of the equation is like saying "Well, besides the armed, fully fueled ICBM aimed at the capitol, here's the strategic situation..."cyl said:
And yet here is someone, sympathetic to that notion, who has voiced *exactly that*, and is clearly trying to lead him out, and all he's doing is spitting in her eye.
As fun as it is to talk about Fangs as the Wicked Forest Witch, she's had ample time to have a go at Malek and has never done so. Her (failed) attempt to teach him that Words Mean Things have actually been relatively tame.
Remember when I said I'd come back to this: "The consequences will be more severe for the dominion"cyl said:
You've elected to use an analogy where there is an expressly good and evil binary.
This is the fundamental problem I have. Disagreeing with Malek seems to be parsed by you, both OOC and IC, as siding with the forces of badness. There's dozens of way to frame the difference between Malek and Fangs. A difference of whether the ends justify the means, whether a duty to Creation is to the concept of Creation, it's people, or each individual person, the Divine Right of Solars, etc. All of them difference in approach, or degree, shades of grey.
As long as this continues to be framed as "Black vs. White", with Fangs wearing the black hat, it's impossible to resolve. Because she's not evil. She's not a Sith. She's not the bad guy.
If we must go with a Star Wars analogy, Malek is more...Yoda, and Fangs is Mace Windu - a Jedi who recognizes that sometimes the right end means some ugliness and violence.
It's really not. It's never irrelevant to understand someone's motivations when they make a decision.
This is the core issue - she's not extorting him. And honestly, if everything besides "Okay Malek, imma get you out and then get some bandaids" is abusive extortion that's going to drive him down an ugly path, we're already stuck.
It puts me in an impossible position. Malek is there giving her the same hateful look he gives the Deathknight who tortured him, is the pet project of the same Deathknight and the Mask of Winters, has been tortured and mind-bent for an indeterminate period of time and being like "Hey, what happened, and if I let you go, I need you to promise not to tear into me" is 'abusive extortion'?
Beyond that, I really hate PvP.Kacie said:
And yet I'm hesitant. And when I talked to Malek, it was in the context of "What if we can't spring Malek out and have to bolt, do you want him dead or left to the Deathlord again", not our current situation.xarvh said:
Anyway, post incoming. Fangs is trying Plan...E. Let us hope we don't get to Plan M.
