[Emperors of the Fading Suns] [Emperors of the Fading Suns] OOC Thread

To be fair here's how I would handle anyone in Malek's place:


- get him out of there (easier said than done)


- knock him unconscious / break his legs (control his movements)


- assess the situation ASAP while still in the Underworld (don't let him regenerate wp and motes !)


- get him back to Creation to be healed (still under control) or kill him


That way you minimize the risks, evaluate and control the situation.


As for the rehab part, well I think it can be handled as a Project:


- containment (Siham for the design of the prison and some back up to watch over Malek)


- repairing the damage (Rhapsody)


And once the Circle has developed the proper tools and techniques to fix Malek... then capturing deathknights and sending them to rehab is unlocked O:)
 
@Kacie : Actually, English not being my native language, I did not know what to make of CI's mention about "selling the idea of letting him go".


I read it again a while later and thought "hmmm, maybe he meant that it would be hard for F&M to handle Malek ?".


Since we have just started talking about that, I did not know if you had already a plan or not, so I thought it was appropriate to describe a strategy and give fair warnings about what Malek's intentions and known abilities are.


@CrazyIvan : just to be clear, when I said that he is prepared for them to turn against him I meant that he would try to put as much distance between him and them, the sooner the better.


Even if he hates Fangs, he won't hurt her because there is a greater threat to face, and she can be used against the undead.


I could see him trying to hurt Mirror if he keeps his present state of mind, but as long as Fangs is around, she's not to be hurt.
 
Ah - pesky languages.


I'm guessing the issue isn't the rational reasons to not kill Malek - it's the emotions that are the barrier. Fangs hates Malek, for all the reasons previously discussed. Malek's current state of mind is a big change for everyone except Fangs, who pretty much feels like she's being treated like Malek always treats her. Healed Malek is no better to her than broken Malek.


So here's the guy that's been an arrogant jerk to her for several years, all trussed up like a sacrificial lamb. It's horribly tempting.


Malek is also letting his hate get the better of his instincts for self-preservation. He's basically saying, "I'm gonna kill myself if I don't get out of this, so either free me or go ahead and kill me!"


In the movies, when the guy without the gun says "Go ahead and shoot me!" the guy with the gun has an attack of morals and backs down.


In real life, when the guy without the gun says "Go ahead and shoot me!" - the guy with the gun shoots him. When the police say "Why did you shoot him?" the person says, "hey, he said to go ahead and shoot him, so I did."


The point is that emotions are running high, and when pushed, people push back with whatever weapon they have to hand.


Malek is trying to be tough and not show (any more) weakness to the person with more power whom he hates, but not really taking into account that Fangs hates him, and has been known to take the emotionally satisfying short-term gain instead of the rational long-term plan.


So when CrazyIvan says "sell Fangs on not killing Malek" -- the appeal to rationality is the lesser half of the issue. CrazyIvan is looking for emotional context IC from Malek, to convince Fangs. Likely this is going to involve Malek swallowing his pride, at least a little bit, and conceding something to Fangs. Right now Malek is trying to not give Fangs any satisfaction whatsoever, which is understandable in light of his hate, but is a poor option on the self-preservation.


Yes, Malek is half-crazed and in agony. But counting on the person who hates you to do the rational, logical, nice thing is a bad thing to count on, especially while you continue to insult them.
 
xarvh said:
To be honest, within her emotional drives Fangs seems to act very rationally.
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I actually agree with this, but I didn't want to get into specifics because I think there's a big disconnect on how Cyl reads Fangs, and how CrazyIvan views Fangs.


I was thinking specifically of the time when she called Mirror out, and Mirror unwittingly stepped into Tirana's territory. Fangs was making a point to Tirana, but from Malek's point of view, it was an incomprehensible action.
 
Fangs is a complex and unpredictable character, and CI puts considerable effort into making her mysterious.


I don't think we can be surprised that players or characters misreads her.
 
@Kacie : It's not really that he is trying to be tough / arrogant and wants to show no weakness... it's more that his schtick is to take himself out of the equation and consider his duty to Creation first.


Earlier he was telling them to get the Ring of Non from Words because that was strategically more interesting than saving his life.


Now he knows that's not going to happen, and that she's the kind of person who tries to take advantage of someone when he's down (hate twists his interpretation of the situation) he tries to get her to do the only sensible thing: save his essence.


Malek is not only half crazed and in agony, he has been conditioned for days / weeks to turn against Creation and humanity.


The "good guy" he was is now gone. He's a completely different person now.


Now he can kill without second thoughts because it's convenient, and furthermore he has no one, nothing, he cares about and wants to come back to.


He's completely folded on himself and he's lost track of who he was.


Words tore everything away except his sense of duty (hence my reference to Scarlet Silence as "I was") and that is the only thing that barely makes him want to avoid corruption.


He counts on Fangs to understand the situation and do her duty, simply because she has to... not to save him for his shining personality and because deep down she's a nice gal, he knows she's not and that she'll probably kill him if she gets the chance. (hence my point about breaking his legs)


My view as a player is the following: from a narrative point of view II think it's more interesting to leave Malek's fate between Fangs' hands instead of building a connection between the two through opportunistic cooperation which will necessarily be fake because Malek will still hate her guts until he's fixed.


If she's the "better man", then there is hope and Malek can be saved and he will owe her literally everything which will change the dynamics between the two.


If she prefers seeing a solar fall rather than saving him, then she will create an enemy of Creation.


The third option is getting him out and killing him to reboot his exaltation, but as a player I think it would be a much more fitting ending to see him doom himself out of hate and snap his own neck a la Joker in The Dark Knight Returns to be sure to come back and torment Fangs and the ones she cares about.


I know it's rather dark, but we're thousands of miles away from what Malek used to be here.
 
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Kacie said:
I actually agree with this, but I didn't want to get into specifics because I think there's a big disconnect on how Cyl reads Fangs, and how CrazyIvan views Fangs.
I was thinking specifically of the time when she called Mirror out, and Mirror unwittingly stepped into Tirana's territory. Fangs was making a point to Tirana, but from Malek's point of view, it was an incomprehensible action.
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Malek cannot understand Cunning Fangs, because he's more of a jedi and she's more of a sith.


But in this particular situation, understanding her motives is irrelevant.


He's a broken man with only one thing to lose and one last positive barrier before the fall.


If she ignores that fact and continues her attempt at what he perceives as abusive extortion she will lose him.


But I believe CI already knows that :)
 
Cyl, I don't believe that's fair to CrazyIvan. There's socially a lot of pressure on him to not kill another PC, so this "test" of Fangs is already compromised.


Does Malek really hate Fangs more than he loves his own life? He's not stupid; why isn't he pretending to be grateful, get Fangs and Mirror to lower their guard, and then plan on slipping away afterwards?


@xarvh: is it Mirror's action? I think it is, but want to be sure before going all combat again.
 
cyl already expressed that he's ok with Malek being killed; I have the same attitude, a dying character of mine is a powerful story.


Nor I have any problem with PvP as long as it is dramatically appropriate rather than a player's whim.


Both CI and cyl have been interpreting their characters wonderfully, so I have no problems letting them all options open.


@Kacie: my bad. Words' action is Guard. Mirror can make her move.
 
I posted! See, I am alive after all!


So, this time I've been all lurky and silent because another big life change is coming my way:


I'm going to be a daddy!


So, yeah, been dealing with all the stuff that goes along with that.
 
My congratulations on the baby, prepare for a bundle of gooby fun :)


My condolences on the baby, prepare to never sleep again :D
 
Kacie said:
Cyl, I don't believe that's fair to CrazyIvan. There's socially a lot of pressure on him to not kill another PC, so this "test" of Fangs is already compromised.
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CI and I already talked about it through PMs and in the OOC.
I think at one point he used the word "red button" to ask for my consent to kill Malek.


If it's appropriate considering the narrative, I'll gladly give him the green light, or ask him to give me room to commit suicide.


It's still not fair to Fangs, but that is the whole point of those scenes... Deathlords do not fight fair !


Let me state it again one more time: I'm okay with Malek dying.


I know it sucks, especially for Flicker and Rhapsody, but if every one is against Malek turning bad, we can always exalt Melia with Malek's essence if Fangs frees him and kills him afterwards if we want to keep strong ties with Mirunda / Cross / what Malek has done so far.


She'll have more or less the same powers since he taught her what he knew, but she'll be less dense and oh so easier to work with.

Does Malek really hate Fangs more than he loves his own life? He's not stupid; why isn't he pretending to be grateful, get Fangs and Mirror to lower their guard, and then plan on slipping away afterwards?
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Several reasons.
1- the fact that Fangs & Mirror showed up is not a sign that he'll get out of there alive. He hates them, they hate him. A shallow kiss and make up would never have worked.


2- he tests Words' theories about Fangs and the Circle.


3- he isn't very good at manipulating people, he's badly wounded, he doesn't have the strength or the skill to fool them, and ultimately he doesn't want to because...


4- ... Fangs just did exactly what she shouldn't have done.


Malek's motivation is "Protect the weak against Greed". Malek is weak and Fangs used her crushingly dominant position to extort something from him instead of selflessly helping him out because he was weak and he needed saving.


This exchange isn't about Malek I think, it can't be since he isn't himself anymore.


It's about Fangs, what will she do, and why.


That is what is interesting here.
 
Guh. I'm sorry for being so slow. Went to dinner with some collaborators tonight...one very nice Mexican restaurant and two bars later, I don't think my usually enigmatic Fangs will coherent :) . My apologies for causing the thread to drag, I'll be better about picking up the pace when I'm back, and I should be fully back and posting all the damned time on Tuesday :)
 
As long as you have a blast and go home safely, that's cool :)


Don't worry about the posting rate, it's not like we're going to wrap this up with 2-3 posts anyway.
 
@xarvh - I know you don't like combat, but the faster the posting, the sooner it's over. I know you're enjoying the philosophical discussion on setting up a govern't in the Projects thread, but I confess I'm far less interested in that than in the scene itself.
 
@Kacie: Not really, but it's mostly a matter of timing.


Since there are still chances for Fangs/Malek to interact with Mirror/Words, I'm trying to move the two things at similar speed.
 
xarvh said:
@Kacie: Not really, but it's mostly a matter of timing.
Since there are still chances for Fangs/Malek to interact with Mirror/Words, I'm trying to move the two things at similar speed.
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Oh I think Kacie is planning on making sure that there are no chances to interact with Words > :)
 
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