xarvh
Malevolent Entertainer
Yeah, you posting your action or not won't impact CI, but I don't want your part to advance too fast.
[Emperors of the Fading Suns] [Emperors of the Fading Suns] OOC Thread
- Thread starter xarvh
- Start date
cyl
Creepy smile
IIRC Big K was disagreeing with Agatha on her experiences with the Behemoth, perhaps restoring her first would help cure the poor thing faster... and it seems like the important thing to do.
cyl
Creepy smile
@Kacie : IMHO the problem lies with the damage rating of the weapons with 2.5 and the exploits you can make of I(A)M.
Armor & soak have been sent back to what they were during 1e pre Power Combat, but the damage values haven't... and on top of that they added the O tag to ensure minimum damage gets through the hardest of soaks.
The cost of PDs increased, but the cost of extra attacks charms remained the same.
There are flurry breaker charms, but it's still one more charm you need to buy and as much motes you need to spend and above all, the effect is instant while the bonus granted by I(A)M lasts for a scene.
So yeah, as you said, it becomes "how fast can I drain the other guy of his motes without taking too much damage", and it comes down to "I must have the whole pack" if I want to be safe in combat:
- a PD
- a flurry breaker
- Infinite Mastery
And if I want to be efficient in combat I also need:
- extra attacks charms
- high damage rating or high Overwhelming Value
- Infinite Mastery
On top of it all, an exalt with essence 4 just needs 20m1w available to get his +5 suxx and / or DV up, and then he doesn't even need extra attack charms anymore, he can just rely on natural flurries (as VH did in the fight vs Malek).
IMHO it is way too much.
The defender has only one option to compensate: also having I(A)M to avoid massive mote loss.
And so it stops being fun, and it becomes a necessity, everything else becomes completely irrelevant or optional at best... and that sucks.
One could argue that this is just one charm to buy and it's a tier 2, so pretty much everyone can have it, but just like JayTee doesn't like someone telling him what his character thinks, I can't stand a system twisting my arm to do something that goes against what I perceive as being the spirit of the game.
Considering how excellencies are supposed to work, and the power for motes trade, as a ST I'd just ignore it completely (future players beware
) ... that way at least you focus more on the skill, the style, and the diversity of options brought by the charms the combatants possess.
@xarvh: if you also think it sucks balls, then just get rid of it and refund xp to those who have already bought it.
Armor & soak have been sent back to what they were during 1e pre Power Combat, but the damage values haven't... and on top of that they added the O tag to ensure minimum damage gets through the hardest of soaks.
The cost of PDs increased, but the cost of extra attacks charms remained the same.
There are flurry breaker charms, but it's still one more charm you need to buy and as much motes you need to spend and above all, the effect is instant while the bonus granted by I(A)M lasts for a scene.
So yeah, as you said, it becomes "how fast can I drain the other guy of his motes without taking too much damage", and it comes down to "I must have the whole pack" if I want to be safe in combat:
- a PD
- a flurry breaker
- Infinite Mastery
And if I want to be efficient in combat I also need:
- extra attacks charms
- high damage rating or high Overwhelming Value
- Infinite Mastery
On top of it all, an exalt with essence 4 just needs 20m1w available to get his +5 suxx and / or DV up, and then he doesn't even need extra attack charms anymore, he can just rely on natural flurries (as VH did in the fight vs Malek).
IMHO it is way too much.
The defender has only one option to compensate: also having I(A)M to avoid massive mote loss.
And so it stops being fun, and it becomes a necessity, everything else becomes completely irrelevant or optional at best... and that sucks.
One could argue that this is just one charm to buy and it's a tier 2, so pretty much everyone can have it, but just like JayTee doesn't like someone telling him what his character thinks, I can't stand a system twisting my arm to do something that goes against what I perceive as being the spirit of the game.
Considering how excellencies are supposed to work, and the power for motes trade, as a ST I'd just ignore it completely (future players beware
) ... that way at least you focus more on the skill, the style, and the diversity of options brought by the charms the combatants possess.@xarvh: if you also think it sucks balls, then just get rid of it and refund xp to those who have already bought it.
xarvh
Malevolent Entertainer
Removing Infinite would be a major change, with a lot of potential for messing the power balance up.
With 3ed in sight, which promises a lighter and more dramatically effective combat, I don't really want to invest shitloads of time just to patch up something which is would still suck.
As 2.5 Infinite Mastery is annoying, but not game-breaking.
With 3ed in sight, which promises a lighter and more dramatically effective combat, I don't really want to invest shitloads of time just to patch up something which is would still suck.
As 2.5 Infinite Mastery is annoying, but not game-breaking.
cyl
Creepy smile
I disagree, and I've sent you by email my analysis on why it has become game breaking.
Enjoy >
Enjoy >
Kacie
One Thousand Club
@xarvh - I'll wait for Crazy Ivan.
@cyl - Inf Mastery was just as necessary in 2.0. Mirror uses her extra-action charm a lot, in fact she's used it more than Inf Mastery & her perfect, all told.
Ultimately, I'm in the same camp as Xarvh; I don't want to take the time to completely re-write Exalted combat, which is what's necessary to fix Inf Mastery.
@cyl - Inf Mastery was just as necessary in 2.0. Mirror uses her extra-action charm a lot, in fact she's used it more than Inf Mastery & her perfect, all told.
Ultimately, I'm in the same camp as Xarvh; I don't want to take the time to completely re-write Exalted combat, which is what's necessary to fix Inf Mastery.
cyl
Creepy smile
@Kacie : Infinite Mastery is not the main problem I agree.
It is the fourth and last problem on the list but it is at the same time the aggravating factor.
But fixing things is pretty simple: you just need to give more power back to the defender because he has lost much ground since 2e and even more since 2.5.
It is the fourth and last problem on the list but it is at the same time the aggravating factor.
But fixing things is pretty simple: you just need to give more power back to the defender because he has lost much ground since 2e and even more since 2.5.
Problem 1- damage ratings and overwhelming values make a high DV and a high soak a prime necessity to avoid taking too much damage, and at the same time soak is really useless against heavy weapons.
The heaviest armor cannot save someone from getting killed by someone wielding the heaviest weapon.
With a min damage of 4, it takes an average of 5 attacks to kill someone with the best protection of the game.
Suggested fix 1 : get rid of the Overwhelming Values. Grand daiklaves then roll a minimum of 1die of damage vs superheavy plate and balance is more or less restored.
Martial Arts guys are still exposed, but they have charms that can turn the table around.
Problem 2- extra attacks became much more dangerous now with this essence ping / Overwhelming tag and the high damage ratings.
Suggested fix 2: restore the cheap mote cost for PD.
If you don't have a flurry breaker available it is completely ridiculous that you could be forced to spend that much motes to defend against a multiple attacks.
Alternately, you could treat extra attacks as One Weapon Two Blows, only one attack roll repeated hits.
If you do, then a PD should cost 8m.
Problem 3- no more combos, which means that the fighters can go all out on each other... and combat focused characters become unstoppable, while people focusing only on defense become victims because it cost more to defend against a flurry or break it than it cost to launch one and the defenders can't retaliate.
Suggested fix 3: restore the cheap mote cost for PD.
Problem 4- Infinite Mastery since 2.5 gives static bonuses almost as good as the DV you're supposed to hit with your regular attack pool. And that strengthens problems 1 2 and 3.
Defenders are screwed over without and only a little bit less with, flurries become even more dangerous, most martial arts become totally useless, paranoia takes over, those with the right selection of charms are destined to win, and those without are doomed to lose.
Suggested fix 4: drop Infinite Mastery for good because it doesn't bring anything good to the game anyway (excellencies already exist, you don't need massive scene long bonuses to get to where you want to go), and go back to enjoying a diversity of charms and scenarios allowing combat to be fun instead of pinning it to a dark corner of predictable boredom and conventionalism.
The heaviest armor cannot save someone from getting killed by someone wielding the heaviest weapon.
With a min damage of 4, it takes an average of 5 attacks to kill someone with the best protection of the game.
Suggested fix 1 : get rid of the Overwhelming Values. Grand daiklaves then roll a minimum of 1die of damage vs superheavy plate and balance is more or less restored.
Martial Arts guys are still exposed, but they have charms that can turn the table around.
Problem 2- extra attacks became much more dangerous now with this essence ping / Overwhelming tag and the high damage ratings.
Suggested fix 2: restore the cheap mote cost for PD.
If you don't have a flurry breaker available it is completely ridiculous that you could be forced to spend that much motes to defend against a multiple attacks.
Alternately, you could treat extra attacks as One Weapon Two Blows, only one attack roll repeated hits.
If you do, then a PD should cost 8m.
Problem 3- no more combos, which means that the fighters can go all out on each other... and combat focused characters become unstoppable, while people focusing only on defense become victims because it cost more to defend against a flurry or break it than it cost to launch one and the defenders can't retaliate.
Suggested fix 3: restore the cheap mote cost for PD.
Problem 4- Infinite Mastery since 2.5 gives static bonuses almost as good as the DV you're supposed to hit with your regular attack pool. And that strengthens problems 1 2 and 3.
Defenders are screwed over without and only a little bit less with, flurries become even more dangerous, most martial arts become totally useless, paranoia takes over, those with the right selection of charms are destined to win, and those without are doomed to lose.
Suggested fix 4: drop Infinite Mastery for good because it doesn't bring anything good to the game anyway (excellencies already exist, you don't need massive scene long bonuses to get to where you want to go), and go back to enjoying a diversity of charms and scenarios allowing combat to be fun instead of pinning it to a dark corner of predictable boredom and conventionalism.
JayTee
Eight Thousand Club
@cyl: I'm pretty sure you're preaching to the deaf. You aren't telling those of us who know the ins and outs of the system anything we don't already know. Most of us either don't care or don't feel like bothering to fix a system when a new edition is on it's way.
Yes, it's a very comprehensive writeup, but it's ultimately not worth the effort to do anything about.
Yes, it's a very comprehensive writeup, but it's ultimately not worth the effort to do anything about.
cyl
Creepy smile
As if it was hard to make the few minor changes I suggested. Tsk O
And after what they did with 2e, and 2.5, I can't say I have much faith left in me, but we'll see.
And after what they did with 2e, and 2.5, I can't say I have much faith left in me, but we'll see.
xarvh
Malevolent Entertainer
Honestly, combat is a PITA.
More than lightening and balancing the mechanics, I look forward for the more drama-oriented system, where you build up advantages without even wounding your enemy.
Otherwise combat is just a horrid stop in the flow of the story that makes me cringe until I can end combat time.
More than lightening and balancing the mechanics, I look forward for the more drama-oriented system, where you build up advantages without even wounding your enemy.
Otherwise combat is just a horrid stop in the flow of the story that makes me cringe until I can end combat time.
Kacie
One Thousand Club
They're going to a more drama based system? I really hope that works out - combat always has taken a long time in all editions of Exalted, and the crunchy mechanics (rules-medium, not quite rules-heavy) hasn't ever sat well with the Drama! that the setting and tone of the books try to set.
I've had a GM who really got into the tactical crunch - that's where I learned the ins and outs of 2.0 combat since he put everyone through their paces and tried out different builds. Great game - combat varied wildly, however, and always took a long time. Got to the point where we asked the GM to tell us when someone used a perfect so we didn't get demoralized when none of our attacks ever seemed to land/do anything. I got very used to mote-whittling being the judge of how well I was doing in combat - you only get hit when you're out of motes was the lesson I learned. (Unless you are a lunar.)
I've had a GM who really got into the tactical crunch - that's where I learned the ins and outs of 2.0 combat since he put everyone through their paces and tried out different builds. Great game - combat varied wildly, however, and always took a long time. Got to the point where we asked the GM to tell us when someone used a perfect so we didn't get demoralized when none of our attacks ever seemed to land/do anything. I got very used to mote-whittling being the judge of how well I was doing in combat - you only get hit when you're out of motes was the lesson I learned. (Unless you are a lunar.)
JayTee
Eight Thousand Club
I just did research, looked up the pros and cons between the different combat abilities. As much as I like fisticuffs, I know melee is superior in pretty much every regard.
JayTee
Eight Thousand Club
Yes, but with distinct advantages and disadvantages that still end up being mostly even with each other
xarvh
Malevolent Entertainer
Such as?
Arynne
Salmon of Doubt
And if the "bare handed" fighter has claws and fangs?xarvh said:
xarvh
Malevolent Entertainer
That's totally NOT a *bare* hand. =D
Norts
Elder Member
Nope, then it's a 'bear' hand.
xarvh
Malevolent Entertainer
cyl
Creepy smile
Well it's the way it's supposed to work, but it doesn't work that way because the people in charge do not have balance in mind when they write stuff down and they also forget to check what's been done before.JayTee said:
You don't need to go as far as Melee vs MA to see that, just one look at Solar Melee vs Abyssal Melee makes it clear that ending up mostly even was never an option.
Deathknights are not only more skilled damage dealers, they are also much better defenders than solars because they have all they need in that Melee tree.
The abyssal with Broken Toys Riposte will defeat the solar, and the solar can't disarm the abyssal in return he can only counter attack as many times as he is hit -> a different effect for the tier 4 charm and the abyssal breaks the balance.
But... the solar with a plain dumb Call the Blade will defeat the abyssal's Broken Toys Riposte -> a tier 1 charm worth 1m beats a tier 4 charm worth oh so much more and the balance is broken again, but in the opposite direction this time.
How can you expect people not to go crazy with this kind of aberrations when they come up in a game ? :question:
I don't think it was that complicated to give each side a fighting chance without completely screwing over the defender or making the available options too repetitive... it just required a global vision and a sense of proportions.
As JayTee so simply put it, I believe that they either don't care or don't feel like bothering to fix it... which is why I don't have many expectations for 3e.
Fortunately, it's not the mechanics I'm after when I'm playing exalted, but even then, I still do hate it when they get in the way of the story and the fun.
JayTee
Eight Thousand Club
I came across (and am using in a different game) a rewrite for Solar Hero Style that sort of did this by making it so SHS could do a lot more damage than Solar Melee to a signal target, but didn't have good multi-targeting charms other than a single AoE ability. Things like that, basically.xarvh said:
@cyl: This is why they're throwing out the old combat engine entirely and writing one from scratch.
JayTee
Eight Thousand Club
It goes by the name Fist of the Daystar. John Chung wrote it for 2.0, and someone else updated it for 2.5.
It has some balance issues, but I still consider it to be in all ways superior the default Solar Hero Style.
It has some balance issues, but I still consider it to be in all ways superior the default Solar Hero Style.
Arynne
Salmon of Doubt
I almost made that joke, but decided against it. Darn.Norts said:
cyl
Creepy smile
It's an excellent joke for a lunar 
