JayTee
Eight Thousand Club
A definite plus, yes.
[Emperors of the Fading Suns] [Emperors of the Fading Suns] OOC Thread
- Thread starter xarvh
- Start date
CrazyIvan
Two Thousand Club
It's convenient with the snacks deliver themselves.cyl said:Because you know... doors open from both sides >
And at Essence 6, Fangs can counter-spell Fair Folk charms as if they were spells.
Kacie
One Thousand Club
@xarvh - You asked if Mirror has a Flurry Breaker charm.
Funny thing about Melee is that technically, it doesn't have a flurry-breaker charm, as far as I'm aware of; instead, it has Counter-attacks. Mirror has the basic 3m counter-attack charm.
Another funny thing - Solars have Ready in Eight Directions which lets you counter all incoming attacks for the round. Abyssals don't have a Mirror charm for Ready in 8 Directions - I believe the devs wanted to mechanically emphasize that Solars are great at duals, offense and defense -- while Abyssals are all about killing things, not so much about the defense.
Anyways, if I'm wrong and there is a melee flurry breaker available for Abyssal Melee, please let me know! I'll pick it up the next time I have exp and training time.
(And sorry, wasn't trying to be obnoxious in the post about SSE not breaking flurries.)
Funny thing about Melee is that technically, it doesn't have a flurry-breaker charm, as far as I'm aware of; instead, it has Counter-attacks. Mirror has the basic 3m counter-attack charm.
Another funny thing - Solars have Ready in Eight Directions which lets you counter all incoming attacks for the round. Abyssals don't have a Mirror charm for Ready in 8 Directions - I believe the devs wanted to mechanically emphasize that Solars are great at duals, offense and defense -- while Abyssals are all about killing things, not so much about the defense.
Anyways, if I'm wrong and there is a melee flurry breaker available for Abyssal Melee, please let me know! I'll pick it up the next time I have exp and training time.
(And sorry, wasn't trying to be obnoxious in the post about SSE not breaking flurries.)
cyl
Creepy smile
Well I guess Broken Toys Riposte sort of works as a flurry breaker as long as the one attacking has a weapon to be disintegrated or hurled away from his hands.
No weapon, no flurry.
No weapon, no flurry.
Kacie
One Thousand Club
Good point. I've always looked at it and gone, "Damn, that's an expensive charm." Mainly because I've been looking what it would take to pull that off on Mirror or someone else with a 2-handed great weapon; it'd take 13m to disarm Mirror.
I suppose most enemies don't run around with 10L + weapons, but it's for those where you really want a Flurry Breaker.
Also - doesn't work on Lunars going for the au natural attack.
So you're right - Broken Toys Riposte has its time and place. I'd rather have a real, general flurry breaker, or Ready in 8 Directions, however, because they're a flat cost and always applicable.
Then again, beggars, choosers....
I suppose most enemies don't run around with 10L + weapons, but it's for those where you really want a Flurry Breaker.
Also - doesn't work on Lunars going for the au natural attack.
So you're right - Broken Toys Riposte has its time and place. I'd rather have a real, general flurry breaker, or Ready in 8 Directions, however, because they're a flat cost and always applicable.
Then again, beggars, choosers....
cyl
Creepy smile
I don't really like counterattacks for three reasons:
1- they lower your DV
2- they do not generate an onslaught penalty
3- you have to boost the counter attack pool to ensure efficiency
So basically if you face a flurry or multiple opponents you also imperatively need a DV stabilizer for the whole action like Bulwark Stance if you don't want to get hit by the last attacks.
As for natural attacks....you can always go Vengeful Riposte + Artful Maiming Onslaught...
No limb, no flurry
1- they lower your DV
2- they do not generate an onslaught penalty
3- you have to boost the counter attack pool to ensure efficiency
So basically if you face a flurry or multiple opponents you also imperatively need a DV stabilizer for the whole action like Bulwark Stance if you don't want to get hit by the last attacks.
As for natural attacks....you can always go Vengeful Riposte + Artful Maiming Onslaught...
No limb, no flurry
Kacie
One Thousand Club
Heheheheeheh.As for natural attacks....you can always go Vengeful Riposte + Artful Maiming Onslaught...
No limb, no flurry
Oh, I love Artful Maiming, even as I gnash my teeth. It's such a lovely hateful charm. I'd absolutely get it for Mirror, except it has the fine print that the de-limbing only works on beings with lower Essence than you. This is necessary for game balance (I think?) and also the charm sucks so very much when successfully used on you. I knew Mirror was on the lower end of the scale for Essence - she's just now caught up with everyone else - and frequently the enemy has higher Essence. So despite the fun and cruelty of Artful Maiming, I haven't picked it up. Even now that she's Essence 4, it would only work on Essence 3 or lower. Fun as hell when used to demoralize mortal armies; not so good on enemy Exalts with experience, as usually the people I'd like to de-limb are Essence 4+.
Counter-attacks are definitely not as good as a true flurry breaker like Leaping Dodge.
Whether they're implemented correctly, that I don't know. Should they give Onslaught? I don't know. The idea behind it is making it too painful to continue attacking you, forcing the other person to drop the rest of their flurry against you for fear of reprisal. As you point out, it's an open question of whether the mechanics achieve this or not, and it's highly dependent on how dangerous the counter-attacker is - a meager counter-attack is worthless, a counter-attack from a Deathlord is terrifying. Whereas it doesn't matter how good at combat someone is when they use Leaping Dodge - it works regardless. (There is a slight question of how far away they get - a Full Moon Lunar flurry can overcome Leaping Dodge because of the Full Moon anima banner, but that's an extreme case.)
One can argue Dodge should definitely be better than Parry, because with Dodge you have to get separate skill, whereas Melee is at least all one skill.
And...yeah, then we get into game balance, and I give up. Past a certain point, and I'd rather put my time/energy into more enjoyable things than figuring out the proper balance for 2.5!
cyl
Creepy smile
Even if you're using AMO on a higher essence being, I believe that technically it still disables the limb (hence the wp cost and the 2 levels of damage minimum).
The only difference is it's not cut off and it takes only a day of resting to recuperate from the crushed bones / tendons / muscles... but otherwise it's still unusable for the rest of the day which in combat situation achieves pretty much the same effect as amputation (unless the other guy has anti crippling charms...).
Of course that's not going to help you much vs an octopus totemed lunar... but it's still something
And yeah, dodge has to be better than Melee, it's completely normal IMHO too.
The only difference is it's not cut off and it takes only a day of resting to recuperate from the crushed bones / tendons / muscles... but otherwise it's still unusable for the rest of the day which in combat situation achieves pretty much the same effect as amputation (unless the other guy has anti crippling charms...).
Of course that's not going to help you much vs an octopus totemed lunar... but it's still something
And yeah, dodge has to be better than Melee, it's completely normal IMHO too.
Kacie
One Thousand Club
Hmm. That's also a good point.
My general take on Exalted combat is that most of the time the opponent does everything they can to avoid being hit as long as you're threatening enough they don't believe they can shrug off your blow. Therefore, if you spend motes on AMO and the like, most of the time the opponent is going to perfect away until they run out of motes - at which point you probably don't need AMO to take them down.
It's hard to land 2 health levels worth of damage until someone is out of motes (unless they don't have a perfect, but if they're launching dangerous flurries, they probably have a perfect).
Thanks to your points on Broken Toy Riposte, though, I'll probably pick it up. 13m to disarm someone like Mirror is still cheaper than using 5 more perfects. (Although likely that gets into a mote bidding war using perfects, but hey, that's Exalted combat for you.)
My general take on Exalted combat is that most of the time the opponent does everything they can to avoid being hit as long as you're threatening enough they don't believe they can shrug off your blow. Therefore, if you spend motes on AMO and the like, most of the time the opponent is going to perfect away until they run out of motes - at which point you probably don't need AMO to take them down.
It's hard to land 2 health levels worth of damage until someone is out of motes (unless they don't have a perfect, but if they're launching dangerous flurries, they probably have a perfect).
Thanks to your points on Broken Toy Riposte, though, I'll probably pick it up. 13m to disarm someone like Mirror is still cheaper than using 5 more perfects. (Although likely that gets into a mote bidding war using perfects, but hey, that's Exalted combat for you.)
cyl
Creepy smile
I haven't looked up your sheet but just to keep on the fun side, I'd buy AMO all the same.
BRT: uh ho, where did my weapon and my extra attacks go ?
VR: uh ho, where did that counterattack come from ?
AMO: uh ho, how am I going to get my weapon back with just one leg / without my good hand ?
>
Usually you save that sort of "combo" on lower opponents when you want to show off, and it won't work vs more dangerous opponents.
But you're right, Exalted Combat has this "escalation" vibe going on, but now a PD costs 8m, you normally avoid spamming it every chance you get.
That's why Infinite Mastery has become so frickin useful... almost to a fault.
BRT: uh ho, where did my weapon and my extra attacks go ?
VR: uh ho, where did that counterattack come from ?
AMO: uh ho, how am I going to get my weapon back with just one leg / without my good hand ?
>
Usually you save that sort of "combo" on lower opponents when you want to show off, and it won't work vs more dangerous opponents.
But you're right, Exalted Combat has this "escalation" vibe going on, but now a PD costs 8m, you normally avoid spamming it every chance you get.
That's why Infinite Mastery has become so frickin useful... almost to a fault.
Kacie
One Thousand Club
Infinite Mastery was the go-to staple for the 2.0 game I was in - the only question was how many motes to pump into its activation. (I was doing Thrown/Dodge, so the Inf Mastery didn't help my defense.) I spammed Seven Shadow, since I couldn't afford to get hit (very light armor).cyl said:I haven't looked up your sheet but just to keep on the fun side, I'd buy AMO all the same.
BRT: uh ho, where did my weapon and my extra attacks go ?
VR: uh ho, where did that counterattack come from ?
AMO: uh ho, how am I going to get my weapon back with just one leg / without my good hand ?
>
Usually you save that sort of "combo" on lower opponents when you want to show off, and it won't work vs more dangerous opponents.
But you're right, Exalted Combat has this "escalation" vibe going on, but now a PD costs 8m, you normally avoid spamming it every chance you get.
That's why Infinite Mastery has become so frickin useful... almost to a fault.
Playing a melee character, with perfects now twice as expensive, there's no question of needing Inf Mastery at full strength.
Which isn't fool-proof, as Words just showed by forcing the choice of running down my motes or getting stunned. I chose to not be stunned, but now I'm out of motes for a perfect. We'll see how this goes with Words - I'm enjoying it, I've already had to think of new strategies a few times. Definitely feels touch'n'go on my end.
Mirror has VR, and our discussion has decided me that BRT needs to go on the list of utility charms I'm looking to get. (Got a few War charms, and now that she's Essence 4, there are some melee enhancing charms that open up.)
CrazyIvan
Two Thousand Club
Moving this week, my posting will be spotty.
cyl
Creepy smile
Good luck with the moving
cyl
Creepy smile
@Kacie : I really don't like I(A)M.
It's efficient, but way too much for my taste as a ST.
The way it works now 2.5 is out gives off that whole "dude, seriously, you can't do anything without it !" vibe , and I think it's a crying shame.
I'm not particularly nostalgic about the good old days when we had combos and cheap PD to break them at will... but I don't believe that it's supposed to do what it does now.
I mean there are no other tier 2 charm with essence 3 ability 4 requirements that gives that much effect for that long.
Even Blade of the Battle Maiden, which was the I(A)M of Martial Arts, since all the way back to 1st ed has been nerfed down to the ground with 2.5... but curiously not this one...
So on top of being probably one of the most powerful tier 2 charm in any given tree, it also divides exalts in two categories in combat, the cool people (those with) and the blerchs (those without)... and I think it's just plain dumb.
I really hope/pray that they fix this when 3e comes out.
It's efficient, but way too much for my taste as a ST.
The way it works now 2.5 is out gives off that whole "dude, seriously, you can't do anything without it !" vibe , and I think it's a crying shame.
I'm not particularly nostalgic about the good old days when we had combos and cheap PD to break them at will... but I don't believe that it's supposed to do what it does now.
I mean there are no other tier 2 charm with essence 3 ability 4 requirements that gives that much effect for that long.
Even Blade of the Battle Maiden, which was the I(A)M of Martial Arts, since all the way back to 1st ed has been nerfed down to the ground with 2.5... but curiously not this one...
So on top of being probably one of the most powerful tier 2 charm in any given tree, it also divides exalts in two categories in combat, the cool people (those with) and the blerchs (those without)... and I think it's just plain dumb.
I really hope/pray that they fix this when 3e comes out.
Kacie
One Thousand Club
@CrazyIvan -- hope the moving goes well!
I'm going to stay out of the bug vs. feature debate on Inf Mastery. I know that mechanically it is supposed to cement Solars at the top of the heap of Exalted, which is mechanics supporting setting. 2.5 has made it even more important to have your defense Inf Mastery up in combat, with perfects being more expensive.
However, Inf Mastery is bland, except for getting to regularly have huge dice pools. It's only interesting in that it brings success. It doesn't do any of the funky MA charms, or the flavorful charms in the Abyssal trees that support their weapon style.
And as we discussed, most of Exalted combat revolves around efficiently stripping the other guy's motes, and retaining your own pool as best you can. Inf Mastery does that to a tee. I recommend it not because I like it, but because it's necessary. Conversely, the funky fun charms are corner case uses for the most part. In that sense, both Inf Mastery and the Perfects are too strong. They sorta fixed Perfects by making them expensive - but my glass cannon build probably wouldn't work in a serious dragged out combat anymore, whereas before he could. Armor/soak is now far more important as well.
In this, I think I can agree with you that I hope they do change this in 3e, because as is, for the most part combat boils down to a few things, over and over, instead of being as colorful with crazy charms as it could be.
With the caveat that I'd still like to be able to build a scary-competent fighter within 3e. I'm not looking forward to the amount of time I'm going to have to sink into understanding new rules in order to be able to know how to rebuild Mirror competently.
I'm going to stay out of the bug vs. feature debate on Inf Mastery. I know that mechanically it is supposed to cement Solars at the top of the heap of Exalted, which is mechanics supporting setting. 2.5 has made it even more important to have your defense Inf Mastery up in combat, with perfects being more expensive.
However, Inf Mastery is bland, except for getting to regularly have huge dice pools. It's only interesting in that it brings success. It doesn't do any of the funky MA charms, or the flavorful charms in the Abyssal trees that support their weapon style.
And as we discussed, most of Exalted combat revolves around efficiently stripping the other guy's motes, and retaining your own pool as best you can. Inf Mastery does that to a tee. I recommend it not because I like it, but because it's necessary. Conversely, the funky fun charms are corner case uses for the most part. In that sense, both Inf Mastery and the Perfects are too strong. They sorta fixed Perfects by making them expensive - but my glass cannon build probably wouldn't work in a serious dragged out combat anymore, whereas before he could. Armor/soak is now far more important as well.
In this, I think I can agree with you that I hope they do change this in 3e, because as is, for the most part combat boils down to a few things, over and over, instead of being as colorful with crazy charms as it could be.
With the caveat that I'd still like to be able to build a scary-competent fighter within 3e. I'm not looking forward to the amount of time I'm going to have to sink into understanding new rules in order to be able to know how to rebuild Mirror competently.
xarvh
Malevolent Entertainer
Yup, Infinite Mastery sucks now.
It adds dice, which is the most booooring thing you could ever do, AND is so powerful that becomes a must for whatever you want to do.
All in all my impression is that 2.5 fixes problems by crushing them with a Grand Goremaul or something.
Cool stuff, important stuff, but definitely not well thought.
I for one eagerly await e3, with unwarranted confidence that they did an awesome job.
Still, I have not much hopes for October: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/200664283/deluxe-exalted-3rd-edition/posts
It adds dice, which is the most booooring thing you could ever do, AND is so powerful that becomes a must for whatever you want to do.
All in all my impression is that 2.5 fixes problems by crushing them with a Grand Goremaul or something.
Cool stuff, important stuff, but definitely not well thought.
I for one eagerly await e3, with unwarranted confidence that they did an awesome job.
Still, I have not much hopes for October: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/200664283/deluxe-exalted-3rd-edition/posts
xarvh
Malevolent Entertainer
Also, 18 Dodge Charms only in the Core? WTF! =D
xarvh
Malevolent Entertainer
Ok, will wait for CrazyIvan to move Crossroads on.
Home Party, are you moving troops towards Lookshy?
If so, which and how many and who goes with them?
Home Party, are you moving troops towards Lookshy?
If so, which and how many and who goes with them?
JayTee
Eight Thousand Club
I'm staying in Cross to build WMDs and other cool stuff.
Speaking of which, I really want to get started on freeing the Manse/Library that I inherited from Agatha. How do I go about curing the Behemoth/Big K/whatever? Just grab a bunch of Wyldstuff using Fangs' Gate and shove it down the throat?
Speaking of which, I really want to get started on freeing the Manse/Library that I inherited from Agatha. How do I go about curing the Behemoth/Big K/whatever? Just grab a bunch of Wyldstuff using Fangs' Gate and shove it down the throat?
xarvh
Malevolent Entertainer
The LIbrary is more or less ok.
The Manse was built out of the wooden body of the Behemoth, which now has kinda lost its shape.
Big K has not much to do with the above, but you guys should study the thing if you want to restore her.
Regarding the Manse, you have a plant Behemoth with cancer that makes it develop random muscle and bone on its top.
Solar Sorcery can fix it. Out of that, you need to be creative. Genesis might be the obvious way.
The Manse was built out of the wooden body of the Behemoth, which now has kinda lost its shape.
Big K has not much to do with the above, but you guys should study the thing if you want to restore her.
Regarding the Manse, you have a plant Behemoth with cancer that makes it develop random muscle and bone on its top.
Solar Sorcery can fix it. Out of that, you need to be creative. Genesis might be the obvious way.
JayTee
Eight Thousand Club
Genesis, then. I'm not a fan of Sorcery
xarvh
Malevolent Entertainer
Feel free to answer already, I'll wait CI to answer back.
The tunnel is decently solid rock, you'd need some Craft magic to make it collapse.
The tunnel is decently solid rock, you'd need some Craft magic to make it collapse.
Kacie
One Thousand Club
You mean post Mirror's next action to Crossroads? I thought we were waiting for Crazy Ivan?
