[Emperors of the Fading Suns] [Emperors of the Fading Suns] OOC Thread

[CrazyIvan]

Demons are like spirits and gods; they don't require food, water, or rest.

This is not fully true. The Heranhal smiths we have working require...intimate companionship of the female persuasion...or they start accumulating limit. Which is why Fangs summoned them a Neomah. Some of the demons have weird needs - I believe our current administrative demon eats written material - Fangs likely composes some minor musing each day in order to keep it from accumulating limit.


But generally speaking yeah, Demons just *are*

 

[cyl]

Error, wrong, completely the main infeasible part of this plan. It doesn't matter how you see the actions of your character. It matters how every other external entity sees the actions of your character. It is incredibly naive to think that nation x or bad guy y isn't going to react to your individual actions by retaliating against the people that person cares about or is known to have ties to. I mean god damn look at every super hero movie ever. Sure, it isn't the people's fault that you are a crime lord, but that doesn't mean that someone trying to hunt you down won't sic the Wyld Hunt on your ass and increase trouble in the entire region.

Following your reasoning... there would not be any german left since 1918.


The Allies would have slain them all for being heathen followers of the Kaiser.


Sure history is filled with blood baths following battles (China, Africa, the Balkans), but not all wars conclude in genocide.


The leaders of an adversary dominion know that the people following the Demon Kings do not need to be slain to the last, though some (especially if there is an immaculate around) will just ignore that and burn the witches.

Everyone but you guys will see your Empire as no more than personal property of the PCs.

The consequences of our actions on the dominion depend highly on how we present ourselves and the rest of the world views us.


Do I say I am Malek, member of the Circle ruling Cross, Malek from Cross, or just Malek ?


What if I hide my identity, wearing many faces, disguising myself or just acting in the shadows to confound the enemy ?


So far our isolation has allowed us to remain "undetected", and I believe that keeping some sort of appearing distance between us and the appearance of governance of the dominion will dampen blowback on the dominion in the future.


Nothing forces us to crown ourselves Kings and Queens once the Dominion is healthy enough.


We can just rule it behind the curtains or simply help it openly because we feel a sense of duty.


As Feantari said, this is something we need to talk about.


This is me, talking about it

I'm sure you don't, but there could be plenty of reasons. You could use your spies against other exalts in the party. You could attract spies of your enemies. They may learn too much, etc, etc. I'm not saying that we might not decide OOC that it is a perfectly fine thing for Malek to do, but declaring it to be none of anyone else's business just because you see it as none of our character's business is less than cool.

This is not what I am doing.


I am not saying that should Malek decide to run a company of spies, none of you as players are going to have a say in this, and being an immense jerk in the process.


Just like with the Mirror vs DK case, I am trying to point out that there should be room left for carefully planned independent actions in order to give the characters some depth, instead of merging everything with the realm which would result in creating a new kind of monster.

While we could brand her criminal and disavow knowledge of her actions that would sort of be a horrible thing to do to Crazy Ivan who wants his character to be involved in Cross. Thus it behooves us all to discuss things OOC and at least outline how our characters would react to certain things.

Exactly, and so far we have done exactly that, and this is why this game is still rocking and getting more awesome with each chapter.


I am not saying we should change that dynamic, on the contrary.


Taking the time to work on individualizing your character does not mean keeping secrets from the other players and not including them in that process.


So far every player can know what Malek has been doing, and if something bothers you as a player, I am not planning on saying "screw you, this is my pc, I am the one calling the shots".


I'm insisting on that because from what I am reading, I'm beginning to think I am less than clear and there is room for misinterpretation in my phrasing.

If you want Malek to have the freedom to pursue his own agendas at will then he cannot also be a ruler of the dominion. We have all severely restricted our freedom by taking up this cause. It is the very thing that Cunning Fangs is constantly chaffing against.

I do not believe this "restriction" situation will be permanent.


Just to be clear I am not saying I as a player want free time away from the dominion's obligations.


What I mean to say is this: not everything should revolve around the dominion, as CI pointed out, we are exalts, forces that can move mountains, we should not completely drown ourselves in the dominion because at one point it will not need us that much and many more problems will require our attention.


It highly depends on what you guys think we should do with this thing: do we rule a dominion in the pursuit of conquering, allying ourselves with other nations or annexing everything else under our rule, creating a counter Empire ?


Or do we help this particular community for the time being and then try to fix bigger problems using what we have built to support our work ?


In the First Age, Celestials took humanity to a peek of civilization and then the Solars got seriously bored because nothing resisted them anymore and they started doing crazy stuff.


Do we want to take the same road hoping it will lead somewhere else ?

This is a long, long ways off.

I do not share your appreciation of the situation.


2500 people are in Mirunda which means that soon food production will resume (ensuring Cross a steady yet slow resupply), we have two ships and two captains to ensure things will arrive in Mirunda, Malek is working on conquering Nathir by the back door, Fangs can summon armies of demons, Siham can train able workers within a single month, Rhapsody can give the right push to the workers etc etc.


I may be optimistic, but I believe this time will be upon us pretty soon unless the ST unleashes another catastrophe at our doors that kills our efforts or freezes them.

 

[Arynne]

I may be optimistic, but I believe this time will be upon us pretty soon unless the ST unleashes another catastrophe at our doors that kills our efforts or freezes them.

Shhh! Bite your tongue!

 

[xarvh]

@cyl: that's black and white reasoning.


Striking Cross to strike Malek does not equate to genocide.


The Allies definitely struck the population in order to strike the Kaiser.


Your efforts to conceal your identity are commendable and likely useful, up to the point where:


1) Someone follows your smuggling back and forth Cross and does 1 + 1


2) Has charms to find out.


Play your cards carefully.


Regarding your situation, you'd be surprised that even for me is difficult to predict what will happen.


All in all, you guys are on a thin edge.


The situation can improve very quickly as well as it can collapse badly.


It will be a mix of skill, and luck.

 

[xarvh]

Uh, and remember that you have to start moving away the people from Tirana's new place.

 

[cyl]

Shhh! Bite your tongue!

My god, what have I done !!! :eek:

@cyl: that's black and white reasoning.
Striking Cross to strike Malek does not equate to genocide.


The Allies definitely struck the population in order to strike the Kaiser.

Because there was a Kaiser and he led them to war.


No Kaiser, no war, no population struck.


Since Feantari brought up the super hero stuff, most super heroes have the common sense to hide their identities to protect their loved ones, or more dramatically sever all ties with them.


Should we not consider the same path to anonymity and discretion to protect the souls that we care for ?


Obviously that reasoning has to do with the fact that I first built this character to be a night vigilante, but the logic stands on its own.


If we are not identified as having ties with the people, no one will hurt them to hurt or get back at us.


Now, obviously that ship has sailed with the Deathlords and Sanctuary, but for the rest of Creation, we are still unknown figures, and some of us already have or will have soon enough powers to make others believe we have no more ties with the dominion.

Your efforts to conceal your identity are commendable and likely useful, up to the point where:


1) Someone follows your smuggling back and forth Cross and does 1 + 1


2) Has charms to find out.


Play your cards carefully.

I've been meaning to talk to you about the level of description you wanted for that.


Basically I consider everything I do there stays under the radar by default since it has always been my angle of approach (sort of Batman posing as the Joker), and I wanted to avoid forcing you to read all my cunning plans (more work for you and I).


But if you want I can be much more descriptive.


How did I buy the ships discretely ? I hid my identity and used proxies, and ensured the men manning the boats will keep it a secret. (I do not know why, but I seem to have forgotten to write down the raise my level of followers on my sheet).


How did I smuggle so much stuff discretely ? I used the usual means: dummy corps and facades / bribery / oaths / falsified documents / fabricated paper trails (gods that stamp is useful ! )


For someone to follow the smuggling and connect the dots, he would actually have to follow the ship (which is not very discrete) or get to the bottom of the all the very carefully laid out fake trails and clues Malek has planted.


Only another person with as much mobility and better at finding things than he is at hiding them could do such a thing, and even then he would first have to be after something fishy to initiate his investigation and Malek does his best to avoid the appearance of fishiness.

Uh, and remember that you have to start moving away the people from Tirana's new place.

Haven't forgotten those (Mirunda is on the list of items ), I'm just waiting on what we decide on in the current Circle scene to see who does what and make my moves.

 

[xarvh]

Anonymity?


Discretion?


A Solar!?

 

[CrazyIvan]

Following your reasoning... there would not be any german left since 1918.
The Allies would have slain them all for being heathen followers of the Kaiser.

This doesn't logically follow. After all, defeated populations may be useful.


However, if you are going to argue that anger at a leader doesn't manifest in violence against its people, then Germany during either World War, or the aftermath, is a pretty bad example to use.

 

[cyl]

Sure thing, just take a closer look at Larceny / Stealth charms.


Solars are as perfect at misleading others / hiding their identities as they are at kicking asses... which is why tracking the crazy bastards in the First Age was a total pain in the ass.

 

[CrazyIvan]

Fangs' argument is dubbed "The Batman Defense"

 

[cyl]

This doesn't logically follow. After all, defeated populations may be useful.
However, if you are going to argue that anger at a leader doesn't manifest in violence against its people, then Germany during either World War, or the aftermath, is a pretty bad example to use.

And yet, in spite of what's been done during WWII, Germany still exists today.


Almost 70 years after the end of the war, it is one of the strongest countries in Europe (always have been anyway).


Soldiers may lash out, but clever leaders understand that total extermination is pointless (even though some Chinese generals could prove the opposite).


During a military conflict, violence against the people is to be expected, but it only rarely goes as far as total extermination.


So, basically, even if we are the crowned Kings and Queens of the dominion, our people will most likely survive our fall.


Some foes in Exalted are outside that logic and just want to kill everyone to the last soul, those we have to take care of, but for the first type, we do not have to worry that much.


Covering our tracks should do the job.

 

[cyl]

Fangs' argument is dubbed "The Batman Defense"

Me likey !

 

[CrazyIvan]

So, basically, even if we are the crowned Kings and Queens of the dominion, our people will most likely survive our fall.


Some foes in Exalted are outside that logic and just want to kill everyone to the last soul, those we have to take care of, but for the first type, we do not have to worry that much.

You keep acting as if the only two possible outcomes are "Genocide" and "Not Genocide". Cunning Fangs, having survived one kingdom falling already, would likely disagree with that. As do I. The argument we're advancing is that The Cross will be viewed as complicit in our actions, and suffer for it. Suffer does not necessarily mean die.

 

[cyl]

You keep acting as if the only two possible outcomes are "Genocide" and "Not Genocide". Cunning Fangs, having survived one kingdom falling already, would likely disagree with that. As do I.

Well Xarvh is going to say it's Black & White again, but when we talk about a war or a fight for survival, there are only two possible and simple outcome for the defeated: life or death, depending on the level of compassion of the victor or his interests.


Either the defeated is allowed to live under whatever conditions the victor imposes on him, or he's not.


Things do get a bit more complex when the "not Genocide" road is taken.

The argument we're advancing is that The Cross will be viewed as complicit in our actions, and suffer for it. Suffer does not necessarily mean die.

Yes but is the prospect of innocents suffering acceptable to a softy who has to fail a compassion roll to ignore the pleas of the oppressed or impoverished and gains limit when he does ?


People die everywhere, most of the time we can't do anything about it, but it eats at us inside whenever it happens in front of us and if we keep building that much "negativity" inside, at one point it blows up and the Curse takes effect.


For Malek it means berserk anger, for Fangs utmost indecision.


I like to make the curse a bit of a character's personality traits.


And being angry in his bones and passionate about protecting innocents fits Malek's profile and experiences.


Acceptable losses is not an acceptable concept for Malek, as a result of his anger.


It may be for Fangs, but when walking among corpses her heart will bleed just like his.

 

[CrazyIvan]

I...really don't know what to make of your last post Cyl. You seem to have gone off in a direction orthogonal to the issue at hand (whether or not the actions of a member of the Circle can be considered separable from The Cross as a political entity) and I'm too sleepy to try and follow it.

 

[cyl]

Better luck tomorrow then


To keep things simple, it's just like Fangs said.

It may matter little to us, but in the minds of many a road built by demons to the Cross is different from one built from the Cross

The ways we present ourselves to the others and interact with the dominion will determine if and how the actions of a member of the Circle can be considered separable from The Cross as a political entity.


Malek will be using proxies and agents in Nathir and pose as an independent businessman, covering his tracks for that particular super hero secret identity reason.


For now we have kept to ourselves and those who came to us / were nearby, it will not stay that way forever.


As the dominion expands, so will our connections with other entities.


I think that once we have decided what we want to do with the dominion, we want to think carefully about how we want other social groups to see the dominion and if we want to reveal the Circle's existence and ties to the dominion.

 

[Feantari]

You're still assuming that we have absolute control over these things. Which is what the rest of us are saying we don't. And its not to say that you aren't good at being sneaky or what-have-you, but that a system for determining actions based on dividing things into dominion and not dominion is inherently flawed by that assumption that is likely to lead to conflict/issues down the road.

 

[Kacie]

Again, Feantari, nicely put.


And as for the untouchable unknowable coverup in Nathir:


Malek put his sister in charge of some of the operations in Nathir.


She is not an Exalt.


Any Exalt with skill and charms in Investigation will find her, and one way or another, she will talk, and name Malek.

 

[xarvh]

@cyl: while appropriate effort will justly delay this, sooner or later someone will find that the mastermind that controls Nathir belongs to the Circle that operates in Cross.


Part of Malek's power comes from his influence and his ties in Cross.


Since Malek obviously cares for Cross, if the latter is struck (no genocide needed) Malek will have at least to redirect part of his resources to patch the damage.


At least.

 

[cyl]

You're still assuming that we have absolute control over these things.
Which is what the rest of us are saying we don't.

If we want to "disappear and hide", we can.


We just need to say to Rhapsody, "use your brainwashing powers and make the people forget we were ever there".


Then no one in Cross will ever say "I know Argis, he's that guy that lost an arm right ?", and we can pose as outsiders working with the dominion by opportunity.


How many outsiders know about Cross ?


One solar General and his men, a few autobots, a dozen deathknights, their Lieges and Sanctuary.


Correct me if I'm wrong Xarvh, but to the rest of Creation it simply does not exist, yet, and neither does the Circle. The Confederation of Rivers does not know or care about us.

And its not to say that you aren't good at being sneaky or what-have-you, but that a system for determining actions based on dividing things into dominion and not dominion is inherently flawed by that assumption that is likely to lead to conflict/issues down the road.

That is a personal take on how we should handle scenes to make room for personal IC scenes and more "typical exalted adventures" (exploration, fighting bad guys, pursuing personal projects etc etc) that will not necessarily be tied to the dominion...kinda like Mirror going after the DKs.


I get that you find it problematic.


I also have crappy ideas sometimes

 

[xarvh]

How many outsiders know about Cross ?

You'd be surprised.

 

[cyl]

Again, Feantari, nicely put.
And as for the untouchable unknowable coverup in Nathir:


Malek put his sister in charge of some of the operations in Nathir.


She is not an Exalt.


Any Exalt with skill and charms in Investigation will find her, and one way or another, she will talk, and name Malek.

Allow me to correct you, I invested some 35xp to make her a decent mini me very early in the game.


She is a mortal boosted with Power Awarding Prana, Malek has taught her everything he knows.


According to what we agreed upon with Xarvh when I went that way, she'd be a mortal hero with some 200+ xp by now and access to essence 2 charms Malek owns for 10 xp each. (I never bothered to do her sheet, as it would be too close to mine)


Good luck finding her !

@cyl: while appropriate effort will justly delay this, sooner or later someone will find that the mastermind that controls Nathir belongs to the Circle that operates in Cross.

Someone yes, everyone, no.


And I'm doing my best efforts to make that someone sweat big time to find out I'm behind Nathir, and he'd still have to connect me with Cross.


I am not pretending it should be impossible, but it would require methods that will make a significant blip on my radar which could give me time to study and dispose of the curious if necessary.


And again, that is just Cross, that does not concern Nathir or Mirunda.


The arrival of Kalak's people there gives us even more room to operate discretely.


I believe we can work on some masquerade to pretend not to be affiliated to that specific patch of land (after all most solar exalts are doing freelance work, only a few are taking charge)...


I get the impression that it is totally unrealistic for you as a ST, but I will object we have almost everything we need to build this "these are not the droids you are looking for" thing. (memory reweaving discipline spamming being a huuuuge part of it).

Part of Malek's power comes from his influence and his ties in Cross.
Since Malek obviously cares for Cross, if the latter is struck (no genocide needed) Malek will have at least to redirect part of his resources to patch the damage.


At least.

You are saying someone will automatically suspect an independent businessman when he acts to protect his investments or does some philanthropic work ?

 

[xarvh]

I'm not sure I follow you cyl.


But probably you have to convince your fellow players more than you have to convince me.

 

[cyl]

I'm merely presenting the following option to the group to handle the dominion: hide our influence to shelter the dominion from the bad things that come from revealing our celestialness.


I think it could be done with the proper methods.


If you say "no it couldn't", then it can't, and it's not an option anymore, and I'll live with that.

 

[xarvh]

Far from me to say "No you can't" to a Solar player.


But it's part of my job to ensure that we agree on the challenges at hand.