Feantari
Water Sprite
You just have to word it the right way. She does want to help, she doesn't want to take orders.
[Emperors of the Fading Suns] [Emperors of the Fading Suns] OOC Thread
- Thread starter xarvh
- Start date
CrazyIvan
Two Thousand Club
Clever GrasshopperFeantari said:
cyl
Creepy smile
One day we'll get there, one day precious ! 
Arynne
Salmon of Doubt
Malek will have to deliver all requests via Argis or Flicker henceforth. And give them broad latitude as to how they phrase them.
cyl
Creepy smile
Can't put a lunar to work...
Worst. Diplomat. Ever.
I'll have him raise manipulation a bit, at this point it's urgently needed !
Worst. Diplomat. Ever.
I'll have him raise manipulation a bit, at this point it's urgently needed !
Arynne
Salmon of Doubt
Just don't get caught using it...
Kacie
One Thousand Club
Are we ready to move onto the next topic in the thread "the Prince and the Monster"? If not, what else needs to be covered regarding Kalak's people?
xarvh
Malevolent Entertainer
You must be new here.Kacie said:
cyl
Creepy smile
Well there's not much more to be said.
They are already there, we need to help them and put them to work is all
They are already there, we need to help them and put them to work is all
CrazyIvan
Two Thousand Club
Why am I so tempted to request two random groups of professionals - say courtesans and wheelwrights, and just state "I have use for them" and then disappear off into the jungle?
WlfSamurai
Maelstrom Engineer
Holy thread activity, Batman.
Kacie
One Thousand Club
Who wants to write a sum-up post on the issue of Kalak's people, and suggest the next topic? I'm happy to do so, but Mirror's very new, and it makes more sense for her to wait.
cyl
Creepy smile
I think as Kacie mentionned previously we have lacked a proper organization for handling the dominion's affairs so far.
Malek & Argis were in charge of the execution and decision making process but I think with the new formation we could reach for something more and lay out the foundations of something a bit more interesting.
Here's a draft of what I think could be done regarding the dominion's affairs and priorities.
- Everyone can submit a "project" (let's call it that way since it will most likely result in the creation of one)
- Everyone has to vote on the project
- A majority in favor means the project will be realized with the dominion's resources
- A majority opposed to the project means the project will rely exclusively on those willing to support it to take effect without the dominion's resources. However in case of political or diplomatic decisions - alliance, drugs, slavery, cannibalism and all sorts of pleasantries - an exalt should stand by the Circle's decision and not go against it. (I do not believe we will ever need to consider a form of sanction...)
This is for the long term of course, since for now, the dominion's resources are rather limited to what the Exalts are willing to give up because it still cannot generate its own resources.
I believe that if we organize a bit more and get things done that could change.
Obviously, this decision making stuff would have to be done in parallel of other rp scenes as to avoid blocking the fun and instead making room for future scenes and interesting developments.
Thoughts ?
Malek & Argis were in charge of the execution and decision making process but I think with the new formation we could reach for something more and lay out the foundations of something a bit more interesting.
Here's a draft of what I think could be done regarding the dominion's affairs and priorities.
- Everyone can submit a "project" (let's call it that way since it will most likely result in the creation of one)
- Everyone has to vote on the project
- A majority in favor means the project will be realized with the dominion's resources
- A majority opposed to the project means the project will rely exclusively on those willing to support it to take effect without the dominion's resources. However in case of political or diplomatic decisions - alliance, drugs, slavery, cannibalism and all sorts of pleasantries - an exalt should stand by the Circle's decision and not go against it. (I do not believe we will ever need to consider a form of sanction...)
This is for the long term of course, since for now, the dominion's resources are rather limited to what the Exalts are willing to give up because it still cannot generate its own resources.
I believe that if we organize a bit more and get things done that could change.
Obviously, this decision making stuff would have to be done in parallel of other rp scenes as to avoid blocking the fun and instead making room for future scenes and interesting developments.
Thoughts ?
Arynne
Salmon of Doubt
That seems workable.
WlfSamurai
Maelstrom Engineer
I like it.
CrazyIvan
Two Thousand Club
I think it's good, but I also think it fails to address a couple things where we've actually had problems already. My thoughts are these:
- There's no clear separation for what's "A project for the dominion" and what's "Flicker/Fangs/Malek/Siham/Whoever tinkering about in their free time". As we grow powerful, the latter are going to still have a significant impact on the game, but its going to get cumbersome if everything has to be put to a vote.
- The "you should abide by the dominion's decision" clause worries me - the times when you should be doing so are left somewhat vague - for example, in the earlier stages of this game, I imagine Fangs and Malek would disagree on where "Demons" fell on that list.
- Submit Project - Vote - Decide is a fine system for project planning, but most of our interpersonal collisions seem to take place not over long term projects, but short term issues. The system proposed is both slow, and still leaves open the "Fine, but I'm going my own way" option that Malek seems to be disliking.
Arynne
Salmon of Doubt
What we need is a constitution / charter / some kind of law code.
cyl
Creepy smile
There should be a clear separation.
Anything that does not involve the dominion (Malek taking over Nathir / Fangs raising her essence / Mirror enacting vengeance on the Dragon Kings) / stuff that involves the dominion.
Personal projects could stay open and free. We may talk about it between us to get some feedback or help and let the others know what we're doing.
EX: Mirror may slay all DKs and Malek could resent her for that if he learns that she has, but Cyl will not throw stones at Kacie and neither will that affect the dominion's affairs one bit unless at one point there is some blowback on the dominion, in which case the worst thing that could happen is some "I told you so" spanking.
Dominion projects (diplomatic conflicts / industry / health / military) would require our attention, a vote and, depending on the vote, an execution using the resources of the dominion (which are quasi non existent for now).
That "Circle's decision = force of law" thing would apply only for the dominion's affairs and general questions.
Like "do we make a gesture towards Great Forks" or "do we want to use slaves"... stuff like that.
Our personal projects remain our own as long as they do not involve dominion's resources.
Once a project is passed, I suggest we speed things up so that those appointed to handle the resources of the dominion make the call as to how things will be done.
Which is also why I suggested previously a rotation for the position of making the calls.
Let's call him the Overseer for the moment.
That could give all of us (as players and characters) time to express our individualities and personalities through problems solving without any interference from the others.
Being the Overseer, Fangs could use demons or even undead for a project and Malek could not go against it.
The Overseer could not use the other PCs without their consent.
His position would not give him a power over any other member of the Circle, but it would give him the prerogative of using the dominion's resources as he sees fit to execute the Circle's decisions.
He would still be able ask the others for their cooperation (using their personal resources), but he could not exact it.
As for the "force of law", it is a direction taken by the majority regarding concerns limited to the dominion.
Ex: if we choose to say no to slavery, there will be no slaves in the territory, but that does not mean that a character could not keep slaves in a domain he owns outside of the dominion.
We would keep our personal freedom and could still use it outside of the dominion, but as long as we are acting for / in the interest of the dominion we would abide by what the Circle has enacted.
Ex: Malek can develop his own network of thieves and spies and lend them to the dominion, but if the Circle is against such criminal activities, he could use dominion's resources (in this case: workforce) to develop it, he will have to do it on his own time, with his own resources.
At one point in the near future, the dominion will have more resources that the individuals of the Circle do not.
Finances, workforce, soldiers etc etc.
If a Project is accepted, then the Overseer will have the opportunity to mobilize those resources to execute the Project.
If it is refused, the ones behind it are still free to go against the Circle's decision, but they will be on their own, will not be able to use the dominion's resources, will personally earn the benefits and will assume the consequences of their actions if those have altered the dominion's status in some way.
Ex: if the Circle had chosen not to make a gesture towards Great Forks, Malek could still be offering Zenjo his help on hiw own.
That could make Zenjo Malek's ally, but not the dominion's.
Unfortunately we can't do anything about the speed, unless we fully entrust the decision making process to the Overseer, but that could create serious problems and tensions within the group if a single individual gathers all the power.
The vote of a majority, though slower, is healthier for the dynamics of the group IMHO.
Also, we can use common sense and reserve a vote for major concerns, the rest being handled by the Overseer.
Kacie
One Thousand Club
I agree with Arynne; a charter/constitution would be clearer, and take less time.
I am against the Overseer idea for OOC and IC reasons, and the OOC are more important to me.
-- it makes one player more powerful than other players for a long time in real life.
-- it will lead to haphazard diplomacy IC, and bad blood between PCs
I'm wary of the dominions idea, because we'd have to agree what was a dominion and what was the Cross. For example, Malek's taking over of Nathir has a huge impact on the Cross, and Malek has referred to it already as "part of the Empire" -- in which case, things in Nathir are part of the Cross, not a dominion.
A similar case can be made for most actions taken by PCs.
I also dislike the dominions idea because it separates the players from each other; for example, I specifically DON'T want Mirror and the DKs to be a dominion, because that drains more than half the drama out of it! I want the PCs to weigh in and argue, because that changes it from an action my character takes to a character defining moment.
One of the major themes of Exalted is "You have power to do whatever. How do you use it?" The PCs calling each other out on stuff is a big part of Exalted; they're arguing over the course of the world.
I have some ideas for a Charter; I'll try to get a bare-bones outline, but don't want to make this post any longer.
I am against the Overseer idea for OOC and IC reasons, and the OOC are more important to me.
-- it makes one player more powerful than other players for a long time in real life.
-- it will lead to haphazard diplomacy IC, and bad blood between PCs
I'm wary of the dominions idea, because we'd have to agree what was a dominion and what was the Cross. For example, Malek's taking over of Nathir has a huge impact on the Cross, and Malek has referred to it already as "part of the Empire" -- in which case, things in Nathir are part of the Cross, not a dominion.
A similar case can be made for most actions taken by PCs.
I also dislike the dominions idea because it separates the players from each other; for example, I specifically DON'T want Mirror and the DKs to be a dominion, because that drains more than half the drama out of it! I want the PCs to weigh in and argue, because that changes it from an action my character takes to a character defining moment.
One of the major themes of Exalted is "You have power to do whatever. How do you use it?" The PCs calling each other out on stuff is a big part of Exalted; they're arguing over the course of the world.
I have some ideas for a Charter; I'll try to get a bare-bones outline, but don't want to make this post any longer.
CrazyIvan
Two Thousand Club
What I'm saying is there isn't a clear seperation. Do you really think Malek taking over Nathir, or Mirror and Fangs setting fire to the Dragon Kings is separable from 'the dominion' as a political entity?cyl said:
And when Fangs' personal project is seeing if she can summon Liger into her living room?
Similarly, what's a diplomatic conflict. When it comes up again, Fangs is going to outline her plan for Tirana which, dispite being diplomacy is expressly designed to make it a separate problem than "The diplomatic relationship between the Cross and the Sanctuary". This is going to become a bigger deal as time goes on - a moderate Essence Exalt is, by themselves, a major diplomatic force.
To use my example again, what does summoning a Talon-sized force of demons into Creation count as?
I like this idea less. It just feels like abdicating a solution to the problem, and is absolutely going to result in a weirdly inconsistent diplomatic policy for the Cross, and feels a lot like 'It's my turn to be a jerk now!'
But the existence of such a project still concerns 'the dominion'. Malek and The Cross aren't separate entities. If Cunning Fangs uses entirely her resources to raise and army of demons and goes and sacks Looksky (again), no one is going to be "Oh, but the Cross didn't pay for them, so we're cool."
Not necessarily. We're Exalts. An army is just a way to keep a high Essence Dawn entertained on his way to the battlefield. A national treasury is an interesting diversion while a high Bureaucracy Solar eats breakfast. Workers are just lazy demons you have to feed.
This is a legal notion the rest of Creation hasn't agreed to.
CrazyIvan
Two Thousand Club
This would likely be cleaner.Arynne said:
cyl
Creepy smile
Could you be more specific ?
Are you against the full delegation of powers to one person or taking turns executing the Circle's decisions with the dominion's resources ?
My suggestion is that we each could be governants/enforcers to give players and characters responsibilities and latitude to do their job instead of having to negociate around the different personalities.
Malek is trying to claim Nathir to respond to a need of the dominion and follow his personal plan.
We have spoken of it as players, but I do not believe I have openly mentionned my plans IC for Nathir.
This to me is a personal project, not a Circle's decision.
Aside from Argis who has lent Malek his stamp to help him speed things up to get what was needed for the dominion, I do not believe another character has expressed IC interests for this city on any level whatsoever.
Malek does not say what he is doing over there and no one asks.
If I claim Nathir on my own, I'm free to do whatever I wish with it, install myself as King or link it with Mirunda & Cross to create an Empire.
Cross, just like Mirunda or Nathir is a "city". When I am talking about the dominion I am talking about the whole territory, the resources and the group of people living in it.
We had only Cross once, soon we'll get Mirunda, and Malek works so that Nathir be the third major city.
I am sorry, I fail to get your point.
Mirror & the DKs is strictly personal business IMHO, it has nothing to do with the people, the territory or the resources under our control. It will stay that way unless some kind of consequence comes knocking at our door asking for revenge.
I don't think that organizing the affairs of the dominion will separate us, on the contrary. It will give us all a reason to work together on something rather than what we have right now which is more like "I do this, who wants to join ?".
I think we can manage to keep our individuality, personal projects and IC drama, and at the same time work on a larger scale.
This is largely why I suggested the decision making process should be paralel to the IC scenes and actually be used to create opportunitie for more scenes.
CrazyIvan
Two Thousand Club
You're illustrating my point for me. Malek taking over a city and installing himself as King, if that gets filed under "Personal Project" means everything can be sold as a personal project.cyl said:
Though now I find myself supporting it, because this is just the kind of "Talk around in twisted legal pretzels" thing that Fangs rejoices in.
cyl
Creepy smile
Yes.
Unless they submit it to the Circle and expect a group decision.
Malek did not ask permission to the others to go to Nathir, Mirror does not ask permission to go burn some DKs.
We are exalts, we do what we want, unless we choose to submit ourselves to a ruling.
What I am suggesting is that we install a net separation between what is dominion's business and what is not.
I'd say it depends on the Circle's ruling on internal security, which allowing Third Circle Demons summoning is part of.
If Fangs' plan implicates the dominion, then following the logic of what I am proposing, she should speak to the Circle and a vote will be required.
If the plan does not concern the dominion and will not affect it, then she can do what she wants, but can ask other for advice / help.
Depends on what you intend to do with them and following your question about Ligier where you intend to summon them.
If it concerns the dominion, the others have a say, if not, no one can force you to do / not do something, just like I can't impose myself on the upcoming DK slaughter scene.
It's obviously up to the Circle to determine the mission of the Overseer and to set some parameters and general rules (like no undead, no demons etc etc).
I do not see it as a position of power, on the contrary, it's a great responsability since you handle Dominion's resources.
That is my point, it will not be Cross that attacks Lookshy, it will be Fangs.
And so, Malek will soon own his personal network of spies. They will be his resources. Not the dominion's. Kinda like Fangs demons.
If we want the dominon to have some, he will either lend / give them, or train some.
The point IMHO is to make the Dominion an entity of the universe with its own "traits" as much as any other character or organization.
Of course some of us may gather significant power on our own, but we are part of a realm building game.
It's kind of the point to organize stuff, and IMHO if we can do this + all the IC goodness, we'll have one of the most awesome games ever played.
That is easily resolved through denounciation : "The Dominion doest not approve of Fangs summoning an army of demons and invading Lookshy. Fangs is acting of her own free will and the Dominion is not helping her in any way."
Voila.
Kacie
One Thousand Club
I'm against delegating all decision authority to one person. It's less fun for the other players to have one person have the power to dictate what happens.
The people who decide to implement the project should decide how to do that, as long as it doesn't violate the Circle's joint ethics.
---
The powers that be outside the Cross view each member of the circle as part of the whole; as Crazy Ivan says, what one Exalt does is going to be viewed as the Circle (and everyone in it) having done it. It does matter to the rest of the Circle what Mirror does; what happens when someone (like a Dragon King from another area) shows up and says, 'hey, you slaughtered my cousins!' Pointing at the deathknight who's part of the Cross and saying "wasn't me, was her fault" is like the Walker pointing the Legion and saying, "hey, wasn't my fault the Legion destroyed your town; I didn't order it, she did it on her own."
If Nathir is linked to the Empire, it isn't on its own anymore, it is a piece of a whole. All of a sudden what happens there is the Circle's business, because the Circle runs the Empire. What happens there reflects on how the Circle governs its people.
Mirror is very shortly going to ask about Nathir, IC; Malek has said several times he's taking over Nathir and it will be part of the Empire.
If Malek doesn't say what he's doing in Nathir, it will at least be clear that he's hiding something big from the rest of the Circle.
If Malek says, "I rule Nathir, I'll cut you some sweet deals on the side because I can" - that's still entangling the Cross and the Circle with how Malek rules Nathir. How he rules it reflects on the rest of the Circle. If slavery is allowed in Nathir but not the Cross, that sends mixed signals to the rest of the world about how we as a Circle view slavery.
Let me put the point a different way.
Rhapsody has strong morals about what is right. If Mirror's attack on the DKs is a personal project, is it okay for her to have a personal project to thwart Mirror? If she automatically can't object in any meaningful way, then she's de-protagonized. She doesn't get a choice, but she gets the blame when shit goes down later. She doesn't get to have a character defining moment in calling out bad behavior.
The people who decide to implement the project should decide how to do that, as long as it doesn't violate the Circle's joint ethics.
---
The powers that be outside the Cross view each member of the circle as part of the whole; as Crazy Ivan says, what one Exalt does is going to be viewed as the Circle (and everyone in it) having done it. It does matter to the rest of the Circle what Mirror does; what happens when someone (like a Dragon King from another area) shows up and says, 'hey, you slaughtered my cousins!' Pointing at the deathknight who's part of the Cross and saying "wasn't me, was her fault" is like the Walker pointing the Legion and saying, "hey, wasn't my fault the Legion destroyed your town; I didn't order it, she did it on her own."
If Nathir is linked to the Empire, it isn't on its own anymore, it is a piece of a whole. All of a sudden what happens there is the Circle's business, because the Circle runs the Empire. What happens there reflects on how the Circle governs its people.
Mirror is very shortly going to ask about Nathir, IC; Malek has said several times he's taking over Nathir and it will be part of the Empire.
If Malek doesn't say what he's doing in Nathir, it will at least be clear that he's hiding something big from the rest of the Circle.
If Malek says, "I rule Nathir, I'll cut you some sweet deals on the side because I can" - that's still entangling the Cross and the Circle with how Malek rules Nathir. How he rules it reflects on the rest of the Circle. If slavery is allowed in Nathir but not the Cross, that sends mixed signals to the rest of the world about how we as a Circle view slavery.
Let me put the point a different way.
Rhapsody has strong morals about what is right. If Mirror's attack on the DKs is a personal project, is it okay for her to have a personal project to thwart Mirror? If she automatically can't object in any meaningful way, then she's de-protagonized. She doesn't get a choice, but she gets the blame when shit goes down later. She doesn't get to have a character defining moment in calling out bad behavior.