[Emperors of the Fading Suns] [Emperors of the Fading Suns] OOC Thread

[Kacie]

If I might suggest, Norts - you should decide where you're going to spend the bulk of your charms. Are you mostly combat, only a bit of sorcery? Or mostly sorcery, and enough combat to do "something useful" in a fight? Sorcery is a total exp hog.


If you want the most bang per charm, go Melee. Infinite mastery plus dipping swallow, heavenly guardian defense, 1st exc, and a decent artifact weapon will get you most of what you need, and then you can focus on spells.


Aim for Celestial Circle, and get the Fast transportation spell where the roc comes and picks up your ship and transports you. Malek will love you to pieces.

 

[xarvh]

Kacie knows mechanics.


MA is ok for doing fancy stuff, but if you need to just beat the shit out of people, for the same number of Charms Melee gives you the edge (as Argis recently learned...)

 

[cyl]

Aim for Celestial Circle, and get the Fast transportation spell where the roc comes and picks up your ship and transports you. Malek will love you to pieces.

Word !

 

[CrazyIvan]

Kacie knows mechanics.
MA is ok for doing fancy stuff, but if you need to just beat the shit out of people, for the same number of Charms Melee gives you the edge (as Argis recently learned...)

Indeed. Neither Sorcery nor MA have ever been about "Bang For Your Buck". They're about flexibility and 'oddness' respectively, but neither one is efficient.

 

[WlfSamurai]

Sorcery is a total exp hog.

Generally, I try to avoid sorcery for this reason, unless all the good archetypes are already taken. To me, it's an "all-in" scenario. Otherwise, you're half-decent at sorcery and half-decent at other crap. While your Circle fights all the Leviathans and whatnot, you're at home creating "magical butterflies" that don't hurt as much as a daiklave to the face.


/end two-cents.

 

[WlfSamurai]

Indeed. Neither Sorcery nor MA have ever been about "Bang For Your Buck". They're about flexibility and 'oddness' respectively, but neither one is efficient.

This is why Rhapsody is MA, too. Flexibility. She doesn't have to wear armor or carry a weapon and it will get her by just enough to be supportive to the fight. She is no combat monster.

 

[cyl]

You can have badass combat sorcery, but that is not its main purpose IMHO.


Sorcery allows you to unlock unique advantages you can't get anywhere else to help you materialize your plans... fast travel being one of the most obvious.

 

[WlfSamurai]

You can have badass combat sorcery, but that is not its main purpose IMHO.
Sorcery allows you to unlock unique advantages you can't get anywhere else to help you materialize your plans... fast travel being one of the most obvious.

Yes! Which is awesome. But I'd argue IF you're committed to it.

 

[cyl]

Honestly, it's much much easier to build a good sorcerer than to build a decent Eclipse.


You need high mental / social traits, at least 9 abilities with a 4dot rating and at least 2 or 3 charms per ability to be good at what you do...


Ideally you need to:


- defend yourself if socially challenged (integrity)


- convince people (presence)


- give speeches (performance)


- read people (investigation)


- know the world (Lore)


- handle spirits (Occult)


- handle business and navigate through organized structures (Bureaucracy)


- communicate with people (Linguistics)


- Lie, decieve and also navigate through social groups (Socialize)


And at this point you still have no physical qualities.


The sorcerer just needs... 2 charms and 10xp per spell, unlocking a world of raw awesomeness with each purchase... like I'm going to cry for him...

 

[CrazyIvan]

Honestly, it's much much easier to build a good sorcerer than to build a decent Eclipse.
You need high mental / social traits, at least 9 abilities with a 4dot rating and at least 2 or 3 charms per ability to be good at what you do...


Ideally you need to:


- defend yourself if socially challenged (integrity)


- convince people (presence)


- give speeches (performance)


- read people (investigation)


- know the world (Lore)


- handle spirits (Occult)


- handle business and navigate through organized structures (Bureaucracy)


- communicate with people (Linguistics)


- Lie, decieve and also navigate through social groups (Socialize)


And at this point you still have no physical qualities.


The sorcerer just needs... 2 charms and 10xp per spell, unlocking a world of raw awesomeness with each purchase... like I'm going to cry for him...

Only an Eclipse trying to do too much. There's no reason you can't specialize, any more than a Dawn should be able to dodge and parry, use thrown weapons, bows, his fists and a sword with equal ease as well as lead an army. Exalted *does not reward* generalists.


Besides that, you're comparing an ability (Sorcery) with an entire caste. That's like saying its easier to be a pick-pocket than a Zenith Caste. Yes...and?


A Twilight might, in addition to sorcery, be expected to be a master smith, be schooled in the First Age, be a detective and surgeon both, as well as an expert on demons, ghosts and the Fair Folk.


A No Moon is expected to be all those things, along with being a spiritual leader. Sorcery is best regarded not as a type of character but as a series of three sprawling, inefficient, but astonishingly flexible Charm trees. But consider how much of Cunning Fangs isn't her spells. She gets a huge amount of mileage out of her three social Charms, which are vastly more powerful than three spells. Their limit though is that if she can't dial "Hot and Scary" to 11 in a social attack, they're useless. A sorcerer will rarely be useless. But they'll also rarely be the best tool for the job.

 

[cyl]

I was merely responding to Sam on his appreciation of the commitment needed to be a good sorcerer, which I find rather ridiculous (the commitment) considering what other templates need and are able to produce in comparison to what potential sorcery unlocks, using the worst example possible (the diplomat with no one to back him up).


I certainly wasn't bitching about it, I love what I do

 

[CrazyIvan]

I was merely responding to Sam on his appreciation of the commitment needed to be a good sorcerer, which I find rather ridiculous (the commitment) considering what other templates need and are able to produce in comparison to what potential sorcery unlocks, using the worst example possible (the diplomat with no one to back him up).
I certainly wasn't bitching about it

Except again, the worst possible example is a really bad comparison. Because a sorcerer with no one to back them up needs more than sorcery, or they're dead the first time they run into someone with a melee Excellency.


It's not a ridiculous comment. It's a known property of sorcery, one well documented both mechanically and with the developers. It is a path toward flexibility, and like all paths toward flexibility, its inherently inferior to the power a specialist can bring to bear. This is true for all of Exalted - a proper Social monster can wipe the floor with Cunning Fangs, and we've already seen what happens when Exalts who "dabble" in combat go up against a proper Combat character.


Flexibility is a bad thing in Exalted. A breadth-first approach of your Caste's charm trees results in a worse Exalt than a depth-first approach. It just does. It is at times fun as hell (Fangs is my 2nd favorite Exalted character of all time, even if she is a mechanical disaster), but that doesn't make it a good idea


Sorcery isn't good at anything. It's not good for melee combat (take Melee) its not good for ranged (take Archery), its not good for social encounters (take Social charms), its not good for building armies (take War). It's not even particularly good at city leveling destruction, because my the time you get to Solar Circle sorcery, you're in Essence-powered Siege Weapons, My Name Is A Killing Word, Battle for the Gates of Yu Shan level of play, and then everyone can level a city.


It's power is in being able to fill in gaps the Circle doesn't have covered. That's what Fangs does - she plugs holes in our lineup. But even then, outside a small basket of Terrestrial utility spells (which I should note is like 5 regular charms in XP), sorcery isn't kind to dabblers. If you're going to be the "Flexible One", you then need to have spells for all occasions. Which is expensive. Because instead of being a Master of particular skill, you've taken something that will might maybe help someday.


And that's ignoring the cost if your GM actually makes you play out the Stations.

 

[cyl]

Hrm, I disagree. Sorcery offers:


- excellent ranged attacks (with seriously dangerous AoE)


- the fastest travel speeds, with cargo


- the best soldiers on the market (a fangs of demons or elementals can wipe the floor with much larger units composed of hoomans)


- horrifyingly efficient mass destruction spells (good luck trying to get the equivalent of Cascade or Krakken if your ST doesn't allow artifact flying battle cruisers firing artifact nukes)


- a range of utilitarian advantages that sometimes equals but generally exceeds what is available by charms or artifacts (travel / crafting / communication / finding stuff or people)


- funky curses


- invoked servants


It offers raw power, versatility, usually a larger scale, unique capabilities, and most of the time better or at least equivalent effects to charms at a much cheaper price because you do not need to pay all the prereqs (ability rating + charms) to get the full effects and you can pick from whatever domain you like, leaving you ample opportunities to specialize in other areas not covered by spells.


Obviously sorcery can't do everything, but for a cheaper price you can get a kick ass package of awesomeness while the non sorcerers will have to sloooowly buy their way to the top, charm by charm, ability by ability.


Its only real drawbacks to me is the mote cost which balances things a bit (only in combat situation), and the fact that you can't use charms while you are casting which got even more dangerous in combat situations when the combos were scrapped from the system.

 

[CrazyIvan]

Hrm, I disagree. Sorcery offers:
- excellent ranged attacks (with seriously dangerous AoE)

Markedly worse than Archery for anything other than mooks.

- the fastest travel speeds, with cargo

Markedly worse than Sail, though admittedly mobility is a strength.

- the best soldiers on the market (a fangs of demons or elementals can wipe the floor with much larger units composed of hoomans)

Markedly worse than Tiger Warriors

- horrifyingly efficient mass destruction spells (good luck trying to get the equivalent of Cascade or Krakken if your ST doesn't allow artifact flying battle cruisers firing artifact nukes)

Magma Kraken isn't all that impressive, or I would have used it in our last fight. And beyond that, as I said, there are a number of ways to approach mass destruction. A Dawn or Social Solar can approach that level of destructive capability, be less vulnerable while they do it, and leave the city intact.

- a range of utilitarian advantages that sometimes equals but generally exceeds what is available by charms or artifacts (travel / crafting / communication / finding stuff or people)

Crafting requires a massive investment in Charms as well in order to be useful - there's very little crafting ability that comes from sorcery. The communications advantages are easily duplicated with Terrestrial-level charms.

- funky curses

And who doesn't like a good novelty curse? Though both Lunars and Solars have similar curses available as single charms.

- invoked servants

Easily duplicated with a single dot in the right background.

It offers raw power, versatility, usually a larger scale, unique capabilities, and most of the time better or at least equivalent effects to charms at a much cheaper price because you do not need to pay all the prereqs (ability rating + charms) to get the full effects and you can pick from whatever domain you like, leaving you ample opportunities to specialize in other areas not covered by spells.
Obviously sorcery can't do everything, but for a cheaper price you can get a kick ass package of awesomeness while the non sorcerers will have to sloooowly buy their way to the top, charm by charm, ability by ability.


Its only real drawbacks to me is the mote cost which balances things a bit (only in combat situation), and the fact that you can't use charms while you are casting which got even more dangerous in combat situations when the combos were scrapped from the system.

Are you kidding me?


You don't need to pay all the prereqs? Each of those spells requires the same price as a charm, and does come with ability and rating requirements. Or do you think I'm dumping points into Willpower, Occult and Essence so Sondok doesn't eat my soul when I summon her because I've got nothing better to do with the XP?


Somewhere I missed the ample opportunities to specialize in areas not covered by spells. Fangs is barely capable in Social Combat because Lunars happen to have a small package of social charms that works really, really well as a utility kit. I have a total of 5 combat charms, one of which is an excellency you'd have to be an utter moron not to take with even a faint understanding of Exalted's rules (Hi First Dexterity Excellence, I you...). And as we've seen in the most recent fight scene, said charms are utterly useless against someone whose even half-heartedly attempted to specialize in Combat charms.


As for "the only real drawbacks" being a one-shot wonder (seriously, Fangs has one major spell she can toss in combat, two if I really push it before she's out of batteries) and being easily killed while that's happening - those are some pretty serious drawbacks. In a game where it's trivial to construct "Perfect or Die" attacks, being unable to use anything but your innate DVs is huge.


And solvable in 5 charms for Lunars - one of which is the aforementioned single most useful general combat charm in the game - less than that for Solars. There is no sorcery that can duplicate that, and even if there was, the sorcerer can't use it.


But pointing to the diversity of sorcery is also completely, utterly missing the point. Yes, sorcery can do many things. The problem is each one of those things is vastly inferior to an Exalted specialist doing the same thing. Which means your only path is an all-or-nothing approach. You don't dabble in sorcery, you don't pick up other Charms. You go all in, and you are now the "Flexibility Specialist". Because otherwise you're both useless against proper specialists, and can't squirm out with "There's a spell for that."


The only exception to that is Demon of the First Circle. I could understand dabbling enough to pick up the Terrestrial charm and that spell, but beyond that, sorcery is like any other tree. To do it right, you go deep.

 

[Feantari]

To be fair to non-melee is not to make a comparison to Argis. Argis is a massive generalist specifically because he can't get an edge via specialization. (Other than just doing MA, but that hasn't been important for a number of reasons both external and internal to the character.) Give him the same number of charms in crane style/MA as legion had in melee and a similar stat block and the fight would have been very different. (Even though at the end of it all he has to out stunt her because of note pools)

 

[Feantari]

Sorry guys, I'm kind of monopolizing this one, and making huuuge posts.


The situation is rather complex and many interesting developments are presenting themselves.


I hope I'm doing good at least, considering the situation.


If you think something is not right, don't hesitate to intervene.


trading daiklave for scraps of food: check... we don't have a choice anyway


relocating the locals and granting hospitality to Tirana's children in the Cross: check


and Malek is pushing for hunting down the Legion as the first step to unlock the previous points

There are tons of alternatives to trading the daiklave for food. Argis just offered it to Malek because he knows its something Tirana wants very very fucking a lot. Come on man, you going to let some giraffe set the terms of the arrangement without even haggling for more food?


Intermingling is good IMO


So you're giving up on our hunt for legion that is currently ongoing then eh? Also, since this is a negotiation, you would do well not to highlight your/our weaknesses. You make it sound like Legion is something we can't deal with. It's good to have her help and all here, but playing prey for the predator is not a good move.

 

[Norts]

This has given me a lot to think about. Wow. I'm not sure where I intended to go with the character. At first I was looking at minimum combat charms necessary to not die, amd then moving on to sorcery, but I didn't imagine that sorcery would ne ALL i'd do. Though as I climb to your levels, I would certainly gain a lot of soells.

 

[WlfSamurai]

I agree with CrazyIvan, but I want to be EXTREMELY clear:


I don't think sorcery is bad. At all. In fact, it can be really rewarding and a blast to play (see Malek and Fangs, also see cyl's point about flexibility). But, to me, it's a 0 or a 1. You either do it well by going all in on it or you're wasting XP and you're Legion-food*. IMHO, going halvsies on sorcery is just shooting yourself in the foot. But, that's just how I view it in a game where specialization can be very polarizing and difficult to win against.


*Legion plaything? Dunno if Legion eats people/Exalts ...

 

[Feantari]

But then there are more things in exalted than just playing the mechanics game. Esp in a game like this. Playing a generalist has been fun. Maybe it would be less so for a solar though, idk. Given the starting essence you can grab some nice things in terrestrial sorcery without shooting yourself in the foot too badly for branching a little. There is good overlap for crafting and social defense.

 

[WlfSamurai]

Agreed. And choosing what to play for me has always been "What do I find interesting, right now?" Sometimes that's a combat monster with a Grand Daiklave. Sometimes, that's a combat inept socialite.


So, for my part, my advice really means nothing since it's a roundabout way of saying, "Play what you want."

 

[Arynne]

...I just realized. Malek and Flickering Claw are the only Solar/Lunar pair left.


I feel like the last of Agatha Christie's Ten Little Indians. :eek:

 

[cyl]

There are tons of alternatives to trading the daiklave for food. Argis just offered it to Malek because he knows its something Tirana wants very very fucking a lot. Come on man, you going to let some giraffe set the terms of the arrangement without even haggling for more food?

Well I offered her a rate of return but she doesn't care about that.
Since we aren't sacrificing something we had to work for, we are only loosing a potential income to gain an immediate life saver.


There is no one around to help us as she can, and I don't want to risk her getting snippy because I've fought over quantities.


We need her more than she needs us in this case.

So you're giving up on our hunt for legion that is currently ongoing then eh?

Considering what the ST said, I think it is highly unlikely that we ever catch her on our own.
It has been hinted that she is faster than humanly possible, which technically means that we as a group (or smaller search parties led by an exalt and a handful of soldiers ) can never reach her, because we cannot keep up with her pace.


Even if we find her trail and get to the last point she spends time around, she can be long gone the moment we get there.


I may have bet on our failure in advance, but with the elements I had at the time, I sincerely doubted we could pull this off.


Tracking her yes, chasing her yes, catching her... hard to considerate.


Plus we cannot afford to dedicate all of our efforts and time to finding her. We have more pressing matters.


We have a lot on our plates and she's a Day cast specialized in infiltration, it's hard as hell to find her even with her trail.


Using Sanctuary's boys (who are more fit to pursue her in the jungles and are more powerful than mortals) to create a net and deal with her makes sense and give us something to work on together, something to unite us, something to forge a friendship around.


And if we get her + meat for the price of a looted daiklave, I'd say it's a good deal.

 

[Norts]

Finding out what I want to play right now won't guarantee that I like it later. I'm guessing this is how some of us became more generalized than we had planned. I'm certainly willing to give the sorcery master a try, though I think I'll probably be grabbing the melee charms, as well as a few occult ones and maybe craft at character creation, along with terrestrial circle and a couple spells. If I get the basic sorcery package now, along with the basic combat package, and a couple other neat things, I can grow into the sorcery role as I progress.

 

[Feantari]

Not a good deal only because you can get moooore.


We could get her help with legion almost without offering anything I'd imagine so that doesn't really add much to the pot. And like you say, this artifact could be worth a lot more elsewhere. I'm just saying you should either push for more or use it to build some good will with intention. Otherwise you're being played by someone who had a very predatory view of the world and setting yourself up as her inferior. A habit that, while it may currently be the case(?), will get you into trouble when you want to be taken as an equal.

 

[cyl]

We can seriously think and present ourselves as equals.


She has a horde of Breeding 5 Dragon Blooded beastmen, we have a legion of rodents.


If she wants us dead, we're dead. She knows it, we know it.


The artifact is worth a little fortune (ress 4 or something like that), but it is not jade we need at the moment (I have enough and will do what's necessary to maintain it), it's food in sufficient quantities to buy us enough time to set up the other supply chains, and the insurance that Legion will not interfere.


As long as she's around, she can attack the food convoys or worst, she could attack Tirana's children when they get to the Cross.


Otherwise if you have other ideas about how to sweeten the deal, I'm all ears.