Other What's your religion?

[Wixard]

 

[Necromantic]

Somehow grey liking my... Five paragraph rant makes me happy


and of course @Wixard, I'll remember that! 

 

[AkuTheWolfOkami]

There's evidence for young earth creationism.

This here, is why I refrain from these conversations. 'there is evidence for' is such a....-sigh- 

 

[Zombocalypse]

My issue becomes with religion. There's too many religions to count, that all say relatively the same thing, with different rules. 

Belief in Jesus Christ is unique in that salvation comes from Him and His gift of free salvation.


Most other religions have you focus on "works," meaning you deeds in this life.

 

[Wixard]

This here, is why I refrain from these conversations. 'there is evidence for' is such a....-sigh- 

I'm merely pointing out that there are reasons an intelligent person would believe that. Personally, I don't much care how old the earth is.

 

[AkuTheWolfOkami]

Belief in Jesus Christ is unique in that salvation comes from Him and His gift of free salvation.


Most other religions have you focus on "works," meaning you deeds in this life.

I'm not here to dissuade you from your belief, but there's a hole in that. Also, it's not really unique to Christianity. 

I'm merely pointing out that there are reasons an intelligent person would believe that. Personally, I don't much care how old the earth is.

Aye, I'm aware of that. There are many things an intelligent person can build a sound argument for, and be flat out wrong (not saying this is the case here). That's the fault of intelligence. 

 

[Zombocalypse]

There's evidence for young earth creationism.

The Bible should suffice, but others refute the Bible.


And that's the problem.

 

[Zombocalypse]

I'm not here to dissuade you from your belief, but there's a hole in that. Also, it's not really unique to Christianity. 

I highly doubt that.


If you really believe that, name them, and show me your source of information.

 

[Wixard]

The Bible should suffice, but others refute the Bible.


And that's the problem.

Since passages in Genesis pertaining to creation lack detail, the Bible could be interpreted as describing an Old Earth Creation, so more evidence is needed. The Bible doesn't give us specifics because it doesn't matter.

 

[Wixard]

I'm not here to dissuade you from your belief, but there's a hole in that. Also, it's not really unique to Christianity. 

No, it's not. But then, if it was the truth that God died to save man, you'd expect something that huge to show up in rumors of other cultures. Like Norse mythology, for example. There's the relevant oddity that most cultures have a great flood story of some sort. Few things are truly unique because no religion or culture exists in vacuum, they all influence each other. They have offshoots and heresies which appear similar but change the fundamentals to the point where they can't really be true to their roots. In any case, the uniqueness of Christianity is only apparent when you examine it as a whole. Many of the factors that make it unique can be found elsewhere, but not together.

 

[Grey]

If you really believe that, name them, and show me your source of information.

Don't the other Abrahamic faiths preach post-mortem rewards in exchange for loyalty and submission in life?  The Jesus part is unique, certainly, to the various sects of Christendom (although I'm aware a few buck the trend).


As for faiths that don't focus on worldly deeds, Buddhism in most variations and a few Hindu sects focus on spiritual transcendence of the material self.  Plenty of historical examples of extinct religions too, I'm sure, but none spring to mind immediately.


I may not be religious, but I do find religion an interesting area of study for the reasons I outlined before. 

 

[Zombocalypse]

Don't the other Abrahamic faiths preach post-mortem rewards in exchange for loyalty and submission in life?  

No. Islam's way to salvation is about your good deeds outweighing your bad deeds. Muhammad was a prophet, NOT a divine being like Jesus.

 

[AkuTheWolfOkami]

No, it's not. But then, if it was the truth that God died to save man, you'd expect something that huge to show up in rumors of other cultures. Like Norse mythology, for example. There's the relevant oddity that most cultures have a great flood story of some sort. Few things are truly unique because no religion or culture exists in vacuum, they all influence each other. They have offshoots and heresies which appear similar but change the fundamentals to the point where they can't really be true to their roots. In any case, the uniqueness of Christianity is only apparent when you examine it as a whole. Many of the factors that make it unique can be found elsewhere, but not together.

Well written, but I think to say that something that has shared individual parts, but make up a unique whole, can be said about every religion. 

Don't the other Abrahamic faiths preach post-mortem rewards in exchange for loyalty and submission in life?  The Jesus part is unique, certainly, to the various sects of Christendom (although I'm aware a few buck the trend).

Yes, if we specifically refer to Christ, there are no other religions outside of Christianity, where Christ is the savior (saying that very loosely, as I am aware that they might exist) BUT again, I could say Buddha is unique to buddhism. Zeus to the Greeky mythos...etc...


Christianity does not provide a novel idea on religion. Religions as mentioned by @Wixard, influence each other. I don't want to say more than that, because again, I am not here to disprove or dissuade. I am to provide challenges, and share my beliefs. Dassal. 

 

[AkuTheWolfOkami]

No. Islam's way to salvation is about your good deeds outweighing your bad deeds. Muhammad was a prophet, NOT a divine being like Jesus.

Yes if you over simplify it. 


So, are you telling me, as a Christian, all I have to do is believe in Christ and I'm saved? That my sins don't mean anything, as long as I believe in him as the savior?

 

[Grey]

Well, there are other examples of sacrificial god-men for sure.  Later revisions of pre-Christian Norse theology steal wholesale the concept and give Odin some Christ-like attributes and deeds.


Pers'nally I'd regard any religion borrowing the most interesting parts of other religions to be more suspicious than I do religion in general. 

 

[Zombocalypse]

Yes if you over simplify it. 


So, are you telling me, as a Christian, all I have to do is believe in Christ and I'm saved? That my sins don't mean anything, as long as I believe in him as the savior?

Yes.


But there's a difference. Good deeds are proof of your belief.


Jesus is a personal God who is always a part of everyone's life. He is omnipresent. And by believing in him, you are guided to good deeds. A lack of good deeds or an excess of bad deeds is a manifestation of a lack of faith.


We are saved by faith alone. Even criminals in death row can be saved. Jesus already paid for our sins. All we have to do is to accept it.


Now, if you were to ask something like, "So if I molest many children, cut off their heads and eat them, will I be saved from hell?" The answer, or MY answer, is no. Because no Jesus-believing man is a pedophile. Those pedophiles who claim to be true Christians are full of shit. You can't find a truly evil person who believes in Christ.

 

[Zombocalypse]

Well, there are other examples of sacrificial god-men for sure.  Later revisions of pre-Christian Norse theology steal wholesale the concept and give Odin some Christ-like attributes and deeds.


Pers'nally I'd regard any religion borrowing the most interesting parts of other religions to be more suspicious than I do religion in general. 

Can you provide specific examples of ideas stolen from pagan gods that were adopted to Christianity?


I know for a fact that the concept of Trinity was borrowed from pagan gods, but the Bible doesn't fully support the Trinity at all.


There's also the doctrine of the Immortal Soul, which is the standard for both Catholics and Protestants. This idea, however, was from Babylon, a city condemned by God.

 

[AkuTheWolfOkami]

So..wait..because I believe in Christ I'll do Good deeds? And if someone doesn't do good deeds, then they can't possibly believe in Christ? So good deeds are Christ's will, because other wise it's evil, and you can't believe in Christ if you're evil? 


How is that different than Islam? Islam teaches you to do the will of Allah, and his will is good deeds (as Allah sees fit). If you believe in Allah and his will, and his unbound grace, he will grant you salvation. (oversimplifying but yeah) 


The only difference I see is that you're knowingly doing good deeds to please Allah vs doing good deeds...because you're Christlike...and he would be pleased. 


Nah, nevermind, I still don't see it. 

 

[Wixard]

Christianity does not provide a novel idea on religion. Religions as mentioned by @Wixard, influence each other. I don't want to say more than that, because again, I am not here to disprove or dissuade. I am to provide challenges, and share my beliefs. Dassal. 

Islam and Judaism, Christianity's closest relatives, teach reaching up to God via works. So does Buddhism, if God is Nirvana and works are spiritual-ness or karma or some state of mind that the follower is supposed to achieve. So does Norse Mythology, with Valhalla, and Greek Mythology, with the various realms of Hades. With the possible exception of certain Christian heresies, all religions do. Either works to achieve rewards in the afterlife or to appease God (a la sacrifices) somehow or both. Christianity, by contrast, teaches of God reaching down to man and lifting them up. When you think about it, you'll realize that's the only thing that makes sense when dealing with a God so incomprehensibly different from us.


Christianity uniquely teaches that man can and in fact must have a relationship with God, and frames sin, death, and the fallen state of the world in light of a breaking in this relationship. Restoring our relationship with God is, according to Christianity, God's central mission and Christianity is his invitation to join in that effort. The two central rituals of Christianity, baptism and communion, are designed to symbolize this relationship and remind us of it. No other rituals are necessary, tho some have been adopted due to tradition or practicality.


Christianity uniquely boasts of having Jesus, the man who history can't refute or accept as the central figure. Teaching that God 1) became man, 2) died for man, and 3) rose again is unique in an extreme and shocking way. Christianity also has the Bible, written across thousands of years, by authors from all walks of life, in different parts of the world, with a single, complete, central message. The story of God's plan to redeem mankind.

 

[Shireling]

Viewing the Abrahamic faiths as a "be good and you go to heaven" transaction with God is quite a simplistic analysis. I think their primary value is two-fold: to fulfill the spiritual yearnings of Man, and (as a more humanistic doctrine) to build an objective moral framework in which civilized society is possible. 


When Nietzche posited "God is dead." He did not see this as a good thing. Certain superstitious traditions, he claimed, were holding Mankind back and with the decline of religious observance, he saw a potential for Man's "liberation" but also saw the pitfalls of a disappearance of an objective moral framework. According to Nietzche, objective morality DOES die with God, and as such, Culture should fill the moral void left by religion. 


Theists, however, might rightfully observe that Culture certainly has not presented a good alternative moral framework, and that we have not become liberated Ubermensch like Nietzche would have us, but rather shameless Epicureans, consumerists, corrupted and enveloped by the trappings of capitalism and commercialism. This outcome was exactly that which Nietzche decried as the downfall of Western civilization. But even more fatal, Nietzche cannot give the hedonists a good reason not to pursue pleasure and nothing else. Indeed, without God, there is no reason NOT to practice hedonism. 


Thus, regardless of logic surrounding the existence or non-existence of God, I see religion as an invaluable tool of progress, so long as that religion is focused on the intrinsically good qualities of humanity: love, loyalty, peacefulness, brotherhood, charity, etc. Where I disagree with Nietzche is that I feel the progress of Civilization is not linked with abandoning religion because progress and religion are not mutually exclusive, especially when combined with Tolerance and good will. Goodness begets goodness, and a moral climate of virtue, not only within the communities but between them, gives rise to a virtuous people and peace within an objective moral framework. 

 

[AkuTheWolfOkami]

Viewing the Abrahamic faiths as a "be good and you go to heaven" transaction with God is quite a simplistic analysis. I think their primary value is two-fold: to fulfill the spiritual yearnings of Man, and (as a more humanistic doctrine) to build an objective moral framework in which civilized society is possible. 


When Nietzche posited "God is dead." He did not see this as a good thing. Certain superstitious traditions, he claimed, were holding Mankind back and with the decline of religious observance, he saw a potential for Man's "liberation" but also saw the pitfalls of a disappearance of an objective moral framework. According to Nietzche, objective morality DOES die with God, and as such, Culture should fill the moral void left by religion. 


Theists, however, might rightfully observe that Culture certainly has not presented a good alternative moral framework, and that we have not become liberated Ubermensch like Nietzche would have us, but rather shameless Epicureans, consumerists, corrupted and enveloped by the trappings of capitalism and commercialism. This outcome was exactly that which Nietzche decried as the downfall of Western civilization. But even more fatal, Nietzche cannot give the hedonists a good reason not to pursue pleasure and nothing else. Indeed, without God, there is no reason NOT to practice hedonism. 


Thus, regardless of logic surrounding the existence or non-existence of God, I see religion as an invaluable tool of progress, so long as that religion is focused on the intrinsically good qualities of humanity: love, loyalty, peacefulness, brotherhood, charity, etc. Where I disagree with Nietzche is that I feel the progress of Civilization is not linked with abandoning religion because progress and religion are not mutually exclusive, especially when combined with Tolerance and good will. Goodness begets goodness, and a moral climate of virtue, not only within the communities but between them, gives rise to a virtuous people and peace within an objective moral framework. 

I like you. 

 

[Wixard]

I like you. 

I like him too.

 

[AkuTheWolfOkami]

Islam and Judaism, Christianity's closest relatives, teach reaching up to God via works. So does Buddhism, if God is Nirvana and works are spiritual-ness or karma or some state of mind that the follower is supposed to achieve. So does Norse Mythology, with Valhalla, and Greek Mythology, with the various realms of Hades. With the possible exception of certain Christian heresies, all religions do. Either works to achieve rewards in the afterlife or to appease God (a la sacrifices) somehow or both. Christianity, by contrast, teaches of God reaching down to man and lifting them up. When you think about it, you'll realize that's the only thing that makes sense when dealing with a God so incomprehensibly different from u.

I fear refuting you will continue to run in circles, so I will cease to do so. 

 

[Zombocalypse]

Islam and Judaism, Christianity's closest relatives, teach reaching up to God via works. So does Buddhism, if God is Nirvana and works are spiritual-ness or karma or some state of mind that the follower is supposed to achieve. So does Norse Mythology, with Valhalla, and Greek Mythology, with the various realms of Hades. With the possible exception of certain Christian heresies, all religions do. Either works to achieve rewards in the afterlife or to appease God (a la sacrifices) somehow or both. Christianity, by contrast, teaches of God reaching down to man and lifting them up. When you think about it, you'll realize that's the only thing that makes sense when dealing with a God so incomprehensibly different from us.


Christianity uniquely teaches that man can and in fact must have a relationship with God, and frames sin, death, and the fallen state of the world in light of a breaking in this relationship. Restoring our relationship with God is, according to Christianity, God's central mission and Christianity is his invitation to join in that effort. The two central rituals of Christianity, baptism and communion, are designed to symbolize this relationship and remind us of it. No other rituals are necessary, tho some have been adopted due to tradition or practicality.


Christianity uniquely boasts of having Jesus, the man who history can't refute or accept as the central figure. Teaching that God 1) became man, 2) died for man, and 3) rose again is unique in an extreme and shocking way. Christianity also has the Bible, written across thousands of years, by authors from all walks of life, in different parts of the world, with a single, complete, central message. The story of God's plan to redeem mankind.

 

[Saccharine Cyanide]

Indeed, without God, there is no reason NOT to practice hedonism. 





 

I disagree. There is one reason: empathy.


I guess you could argue that empathy is sort of hedonistic in itself; maybe you're trying to help others just because it makes you feel good. Regardless, you're still doing good deeds, so maybe it doesn't really matter what your intentions are. After all, it could be argued from the other side that the religious only do good deeds for their own gain, too: to be accepted into heaven.