Soulsteel: Evil?

[Gylthinel]

Yo,


Soulsteel is forged from souls. There was a description in the Ghost book of souls being lined up to get thrown into the soulforge, and I found this to be chilling. Thematically, the soulsteel screams in agony and terror constantly (I... think, no page ref on that though sorry). So the question is, would somebody with half a heart ever use Soulsteel? It seems like using it would be evil, like driving a car whose tires were made from dead babies or something. The second question: is there any way to free the souls?

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

If it already exists, using it alone isn't necessarily evil. Making it on the other hand...or getting someone to make it for you...

 

[Persell]

Soulsteel in and of itself is basically the same as Starmetal. However, making new soulmetal would generally be evil, unless you can think of some crime that could warrant being forged into it as a punishment (i cant).

 

[Flagg]

Soulsteel in and of itself is basically the same as Starmetal.

Not really. The souls in soulsteel are in constant, eternal torment. Starmetal is just rarefied godstuff.

 

[krrackknut]

FLESH of gods, my friend. The FLESH of a god!

 

[Thanqol]

You can actually make Starmetal, really inefficiently, by using the same process on Gods as you use on mortals to get soulsteel.

 

[Kyeudo]

You can actually make Starmetal, really inefficiently, by using the same process on Gods as you use on mortals to get soulsteel.

The difference, of course, is that you end up killing the god, wheras the ghosts survive in horribly agony until the end of time.

 

[Persell]

No, the god is still very much alive and aware. MORE so than the souls in Soulsteel. The main difference between the two is that its possible for the god to get back out.

 

[Kyeudo]

Nothing about Soul-Forging Fury indicates that the starmetal produced from it can be reverted back to a god or is in any way different from normal starmetal. Therefore, the starmetal is the dead flesh of the god.

 

[Persell]

Not Soul-Forging Fury. It is a spirit charm that lets one god turn another into Starmetal after a fight. Cant remember the name of it.


EDIT: Okay its not a charms, but an ability of the spirit that 'kills' another. pg. 19 Roll of Glorious Divinity 1.

 

[Kyeudo]

We aren't talking about special starmetal produced only through gods killing each other or Sidereals using Terminal Sanction on gods. We were talking about this:

You can actually make Starmetal, really inefficiently, by using the same process on Gods as you use on mortals to get soulsteel.

Beating a god into starmetal kills him.

 

[Gylthinel]

So you're comfortable with the idea of a "hero" using a tool forged using a process that is undeniably evil? Like.... you wouldn't feel evil if you drove a car with tires made out of dead babies, just so long as you didn't make the tires?

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

Is the car necessary to get somewhere to save lives of others? Then, you do what you must. If the daiklaive made of Soulsteel is necessary, and you don't have another option, then you use what you have on hand. Now, if a method to free those souls of their torment comes along...and you choose not to take it, because the item it too useful for you to do so...then...well, you've certainly slid down the slippery slope. Thing is, the car, you can replace the tires with normal tires. It's not so easy to replace an artifact...and as the Starmetal situation suggests...Soul Steel isn't the only potentially evil option, either. Though people do forget there is one option for getting Starmetal that isn't corrupt. Ambrosia from prayers dedicated to the 5 Maidens can be transformed into Star Metal, without any god death happening. Soul steel doesn't even have that option.

 

[Persell]

We aren't talking about special starmetal produced only through gods killing each other or Sidereals using Terminal Sanction on gods.

I, however, was when I compared Soulsteel and Starmetal. Which was before any reference to Soul-Forging Fury was made. If the Starmetal that is made up of a living spirit, intended as a punishment, than neither is Soulsteel.

 

[cyl]

I don't think there is a way to free soulsteel souls (which was one of the initial questions) but it would certainly make one great discovery if an artificer could accomplish such a miracle...


On the other hand... freeing the souls doesn't automatically mean getting them back to Lethe... so... it could be a pointless enterprise (depending on your style of play).


On the question of using soulsteel... depends... I don't think a compassion roll should be necessary to see if someone wants to use soulsteel or not, mainly because using it or not won't make any difference to the souls, they're screwed anyway.


It's like "I have a car, it's entirely made of human bones and flesh... yeah, but it's still a car... why wouldn't I want to use a car if I need one and it gives me a advantage over my adversaries ?! The people are already dead now, the evil is done, and I can use it for the greater good.".


Soulsteel works the same way... the souls are trapped, and if there's nothing you can do about it you have to decide wether you are willing to use an "evil designed" device or not.


I would probably ask for a standard Conviction roll to see if the character has the stomach to use a soulsteel artifact the first time he chooses to pick it up.


AND a roll for Compassion 3+ character who would pick the artifact up, store it somewhere and go on a quest to find a way to free the souls...

 

[Kyeudo]

I don't think there is a way to free soulsteel souls (which was one of the initial questions) but it would certainly make one great discovery if an artificer could accomplish such a miracle...

Actually, the Greater Charm of Unmaking could, by a strict reading of the Charms, produce ghosts and labyrinth ore if used on a piece of soulsteel. Whether those ghosts are still sane is another question.

 

[cyl]

Page ref ? :mrgreen:

 

[Kyeudo]

MoEP: Dragon-Blooded, page 143. The charm reduces any object to the raw materials used in its construction. Soulsteel would therefore be reduced to labyrinth ore and the ghosts used to forge it.

 

[cyl]

Damn... you're right... DB can actually free ghosts from soulsteel :lol:

 

[Sherwood]

Having a Abyssal character with a personalty flaw that he seeks to free the bound souls in his weapons and gear could make for quite the epic storyline. If he succeeds, there is now a way to disarm the forces of the Underworld. Or, each item requires a specific, personal level sacrifcie to free them, keeping the ability down to the most desperate; someone willing to make some major sacrifice in the middle of a battle to destroy the artifact weapons and armor of the Deathlord you and your circle is fighting. It would have to be a sacrifice that makes the players go 'ouch' at the thought of it, say, giving up dots of Permenant Essence to clease the trapped soul from its prison. Are you ready to make such a sacrifice? If you do, what kind of blessings may be bestowed upon you from the families of those no longer trapped in eternal torment? What kind of enemy to the Underworld would you become now that you posess the secret to destroying their power base?


A storyline like this sounds like a good starting point for a truly epic Exalted game, going with the tormented Abyssal trying to attone for his past sins and redeem him/herself in the eyes of the Unconqured Sun.

 

[Gylthinel]

Having a Abyssal character with a personalty flaw that he seeks to free the bound souls in his weapons and gear could make for quite the epic storyline. If he succeeds, there is now a way to disarm the forces of the Underworld. Or, each item requires a specific, personal level sacrifcie to free them, keeping the ability down to the most desperate; someone willing to make some major sacrifice in the middle of a battle to destroy the artifact weapons and armor of the Deathlord you and your circle is fighting. It would have to be a sacrifice that makes the players go 'ouch' at the thought of it, say, giving up dots of Permenant Essence to clease the trapped soul from its prison. Are you ready to make such a sacrifice? If you do, what kind of blessings may be bestowed upon you from the families of those no longer trapped in eternal torment? What kind of enemy to the Underworld would you become now that you posess the secret to destroying their power base?
A storyline like this sounds like a good starting point for a truly epic Exalted game, going with the tormented Abyssal trying to attone for his past sins and redeem him/herself in the eyes of the Unconqured Sun.

Totally.... but the problem is, soulsteel was used by the Exalted during the first age. All sorts of artifacts blend it in. So, the setting doesn't seem to think using the stuff is evil, despite the fact that it's almost impossible to say it isn't evil.

 

[Kyeudo]

In the First Age, only those criminals who had committed a murder so terrible that the resulting ghost was likely to choose Oblivion over reincarnation/already had chosen Oblivion were executed in a manner likely to result in a ghost and then forged into soulsteel. They saw soulforging as the ultimate punishment for the ultimate crime (although the definition got more lax as time went on).

 

[Nerrin]

In the First Age, only those criminals who had committed a murder so terrible that the resulting ghost was likely to choose Oblivion over reincarnation/already had chosen Oblivion were executed in a manner likely to result in a ghost and then forged into soulsteel. They saw soulforging as the ultimate punishment for the ultimate crime (although the definition got more lax as time went on).

Indeed; that's more of a "pay evil unto evil" attitude than "it's okay to make soulsteel, really!" You can still think that it's an evil, horrible thing to do to a person... but sometimes, they concluded, someone deserves it. And, Solars being Solars, not too long after the first soulforging goes through, some Twilight looks at the metal and says, "Hey, I wonder what interesting things this stuff might do... We've got it, might as well see if we can use it, instead of leaving it in a warehouse for the next few thousand years." Suddenly there's a demand for it, and, Solars being Solars, they find ways to supply that demand...


Honestly, pretty much everything horrible comes down to "Solars being Solars," aka, the Great Curse.

 

[Persell]

Damn... you're right... DB can actually free ghosts from soulsteel :lol:

Even if this in possible, would you really be doing the ghost in question a favor? What kind of condition would their mind be in? All you could really do is free them then use the Ghost Eating Prana (or what ever its name is. The one used to permanently kill ghosts/spirits/gods) to put them out of their misery...
....or keep them as exotic spell/artifact components....which I would argue is actually more evil than forging them into soulsteel in the first place.

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

First day, free souls from soul steel with Craft charms. Second day, treat their mental problems with Medicine Charms. Dragonblooded are the way to go for a mental healer...note that they are the only Exalted that actually have a charm specifically for healing psychological damage to others, outside of Sidereal Martial Artists kicking you in the head. Sure, fixing every one of the ghost's manifold derangements might be a pain...but so long as you can keep the poor ghosts from running away, it's not actually that difficult. Though you'll want to do some stunting of your psychological help, fixing things on such a large scale isn't cheap.