Soulsteel: Evil?

I know little. I don't know a lot about Exalted metaphysics, and I've never seen a detailed writeup of the precise process needed to create soulsteel and just what it *is* and how it works. That in mind, here's an interesting little thought experiment.


Soulsteel has to be made of souls. Given, definitional, unchangeable.


This prevents those souls from doing one of two things. Reincarnating- returning somehow, but not as you, which is neutral at best. Or becoming a ghost, which is kind of a raw deal by all accounts. Nobody's going to a blissful afterlife or well-deserved eternal torture. Thus it isn't necessarily a bad thing to keep souls from doing what they naturally do once they're finished living.


Is it absolutely definitional that soulsteel has to be unpleasant for its component souls to inhabit? Maybe it's just that soulsteel tends to be the material of choice for astoundingly evil and unscrupulous beings, so nobody with a scrap of compassion has researched the material sufficiently to actually know how it works and realized that it needn't be all bad. If not, this opens up an interesting possibility: volunteer soulsteel.


I could see a very close-knit and dedicated military unit agreeing to be reforged into a weapon for the use of their nation's greatest champion, or a young king's dying parents requesting that their essences become a diadem that will help guide the monarch through the treacherous waters of statecraft...or an entire polity having 'soul donor' cards... : - )
 
Toptomcat said:
If not, this opens up an interesting possibility: volunteer soulsteel.
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In Wonders of the Lost Age, a voluntary sacrifice by a ghost is listed as one of the possibilities for a high-level Artifact ingredient.


Note also! For interest's sake: the first soulsteel ever made was made by Autocthon. There was this species, you see who were good with his technology, but they got... uppity.
 
To say the least... :lol:


But anyone with at least a little contact with the dead knows about soulsteel and knows that there is no greater fear in the mind of a ghost than to be forged into soulsteel, clad in an endless agony for eons... no peace, no deliverance, no end, just pure pain 100% all the way through, again and again and again.


That's even worst than Oblivion. So I don't see anyone, considering that there are many exorcists in this world, that will willingly give away his soul to end up like this... of course they could be terribly misinformed, and this could happen with a nation led by the dead...
 
That most of the end products are eternal misery for the souls making them up could easily be the product of the fact that the soulsteel in question is composed of convicts, conscripts, prisoners and the like- most likely fighting the process with every ounce of their willpower- and forged by some of the most horrible bastards in Creation.


It doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility that a capable, compassionate Exalted artificier, working with calm, centered souls in close cooperation with him, could produce soulsteel artifacts that aren't vessels of eternal agony.


I agree that in practise all forms of soulsteel made by its current users, with the current process, suck. I'm contending that that *might* not be inherent in the nature of soulsteel but in the nature of the sort of dudes who make a habit of making it.
 
Oh I forgot, it was mentioned in Auto1 that soulsteel came from Autochton first, but this information has not been reproduced til now.


The 2e canon states that there are two components for the soulsteel: black ore from the labyrinth (not the coolest of places to be in this universe), and souls.


Now about compassionate artificer and cool soulsteel... no, definitely no.


I'll state the Codex on the smelting procedure for alloying soulsteel (p.23):

Hammering souls into the sooty ore from the Labyrinth involves more than strength. It is an exercise in cruelty and domination, breaking the will of the captive ghosts so they would rather accept an eternity trapped in black metal than the continued blows of the hammer, the scorching of bonefire and the bitter quenching in bile.
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IMHO, the magic behind soulsteel is the eternal agony of the souls, concentrated in the black ore which nature obviously resonates with their suffering and madness.


But, from another point of view: would it still be soulsteel if the captive souls had accepted their fate ?
 
Actually, there is mention of soulsteel weapons that are not in constant, eternal pain. They still moan when used, but from erotic pleasure. Of course, only the Lover Clad in the Raiment of Tears forges that kind of soulsteel and only from the ghosts of monks that have been super-horny for centuries and are incapable of being laid.
 
I believe it's in CoCD: Underworld, in the section on the Lover's fortress and its history.


Of course, one explanation is that the monks became sadomasochists over their centuries of frustration, so they are still in pain, but they enjoy it.
 
Kyeudo said:
I believe it's in CoCD: Underworld, in the section on the Lover's fortress and its history.
Of course, one explanation is that the monks became sadomasochists over their centuries of frustration, so they are still in pain, but they enjoy it.
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That sounds even more like her :mrgreen:
 
Remember that the people who designed and developed Soulsteel have either been Deathlords or Autochthon (who's just as much of a dick). It's like how lots of Necromancy spells cause massive collateral damage or eat ghosts as part of their casting. They could probably be done more efficiently, and less horrifyingly cruelly, but the people who invented it didn't think that way.


"So this here lightbulb works through a circuit of electricity run through the body of this screaming baby..."
 
Thanqol said:
Remember that the people who designed and developed Soulsteel have either been Deathlords or Autochthon (who's just as much of a dick). It's like how lots of Necromancy spells cause massive collateral damage or eat ghosts as part of their casting. They could probably be done more efficiently, and less horrifyingly cruelly, but the people who invented it didn't think that way.
"So this here lightbulb works through a circuit of electricity run through the body of this screaming baby..."
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I don't think this is accurate. Many of the artifacts in Dreams of the First Age have soulsteel mingling in with other magical materials to create some powerful weapon. The lenses on Celestial Battlearmor come to mind, as does the 5 Metal Shrike. These were invented pre-Deathlords. Though, it's possible that the first-age solars were that evil. That's a great reason to kill them all, says I.
 
Mayhap, recall that FOUR Magic Material Gods existed before Soulsteel was recognized (check CoCD: Yu-Shan). But I'd say not all of the Solars who used it were evil per se, but also think about this. Autobot himself uses LARGE amounts of Soulsteel as well. See his Soulsteel caste, who may not be 1920s moustache curling about-facers this time round. All indications point to them NOT being that. And if they're smart they dumped the patently retarded Soulsteel history from First Ed.
 
Gylthinel said:
Totally.... but the problem is, soulsteel was used by the Exalted during the first age. All sorts of artifacts blend it in. So, the setting doesn't seem to think using the stuff is evil, despite the fact that it's almost impossible to say it isn't evil.
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Your first mistake is assuming because it was made in the High First Age means it's not evil by the setting. There's a reason those pesky DB's overthrew the Solars, after all, :)
 
Black Treatise, p11. It discusses if Necromancy is inherently evil, and one of the several suggestions it offers is that "Necromancy's casually destructive aspect came about because necromancy's primary innovators since the first age have been the 13 mad conquerers of the Underworld, the Deathlords."


Same could apply to Soulsteel.

Your first mistake is assuming because it was made in the High First Age means it's not evil by the setting. There's a reason those pesky DB's overthrew the Solars, after all, :)
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The Princess' umbrella was made with the flayed skins of a perfect circle of Solars /before/ the Usurpation, for one.
 
One thing nobody has raised yet is: what's the definition of evil in the exalted universe ?


I mean we know that there are creatures of darkness... but even those aren't necessarily evil (5DD) and even some ghosts can not be CoD... so... maybe there is no evil... because if there were... they'd probably have a god of evil too and I'm pretty sure we would have heard about him :lol:
 
Nope, he's the god of subversives too, so only Nara-O and the Maiden of Secrets know of him and they know he has a job to do.


And anything can be a CoD.


UCS: "I don't like that snail. It's now a Creature of Darkness."


UCS: "Hey there, Mask of Winters! How ya doing? I like you, so you aren't a Creature of Darkness anymore."
 
Nope, he's the god of subversives too, so only Nara-O and the Maiden of Secrets know of him and they know he has a job to do.
And anything can be a CoD.


UCS: "I don't like that snail. It's now a Creature of Darkness."


UCS: "Hey there, Mask of Winters! How ya doing? I like you, so you aren't a Creature of Darkness anymore."
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Creatures of Darkness are the UCS's personal hit list, basically.


Evil is relative. Everyone is right simultaneously.
 
Thanqol said:
Nope, he's the god of subversives too, so only Nara-O and the Maiden of Secrets know of him and they know he has a job to do.
And anything can be a CoD.


UCS: "I don't like that snail. It's now a Creature of Darkness."


UCS: "Hey there, Mask of Winters! How ya doing? I like you, so you aren't a Creature of Darkness anymore."
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Creatures of Darkness are the UCS's personal hit list, basically.


Evil is relative. Everyone is right simultaneously.
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That's true in today's world as much as in the world of Exalted. So, you can't really hand-waive the question that easily, I don't think.


So, to frame the issue another way, is torturing people for profit evil? Because that's what Soulsteel is: torturing souls to get a powerful magical artifact. Sure, there's lots of people in the setting that wouldn't have a problem with it. But, would your PC? Would a Paladin? Would anybody with Compassion 3+? Etc.
 
Gylthinel said:
So, to frame the issue another way, is torturing people for profit evil? Because that's what Soulsteel is: torturing souls to get a powerful magical artifact. Sure, there's lots of people in the setting that wouldn't have a problem with it. But, would your PC? Would a Paladin? Would anybody with Compassion 3+? Etc.
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A fair number of powerful artifacts in the First Age were likely made with the involuntary cooperation of sundry non-Celestial Exalts--whether it be body parts, voices, memories, and the like. (Especially towards the end of the First Age, as the Solars became more twisted.) How would those artifacts be any less...twisted...than the average soulsteel daiklave?
 
Gylthinel said:
That's true in today's world as much as in the world of Exalted. So, you can't really hand-waive the question that easily, I don't think.


So, to frame the issue another way, is torturing people for profit evil? Because that's what Soulsteel is: torturing souls to get a powerful magical artifact. Sure, there's lots of people in the setting that wouldn't have a problem with it. But, would your PC? Would a Paladin? Would anybody with Compassion 3+? Etc.
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Oh no you don't. Fuck Paladins. I started playing Exalted to get away from that bullcrap. In Exalted, a Solar can murder a dude, make his skin into a rug, and then go out and save the world and no cosmic power will take his Exaltation away from him. In Exalted, two people with Compassion 5 could have very different ideas on what's right. One may believe in an Orwellian Peace State as the proper method to ensure people's safety, while the other may be an insurrectionist. And neither is wrong.


There are Abyssals who genuinely believe the nicest thing they can do for anyone is to murder them. They can also believe that Oblivion is the best thing that happened to Creation - it's something akin to Buddhism's nirvana, removing oneself from the cycle of Reincarnation and attaining enlightenment and peace.


We have accepted the premise that this is a world with no moral absolutes. Therefore, there can be no moral absolutes. You cannot say that torturing people for profit is wrong by the very definition of the premise. You may think it's wrong - as may the vast majority of people! - but this is still a relativistic perspective because there is no abstract right or wrong. Someone else may believe an eternity as a Hearthstone Amulet is a fitting punishment for the guy who killed his family. You may disagree with him, but you cannot say that he is wrong. Someone else may believe 'lol oblivion', and everyone may disagree with him, but you still cannot say he is objectively wrong.


Unless you want to argue for the idea that there is objective right and wrong, in which case you've opened a whole new can of worms.


*Did an essay on this recently*
 
Actually, you are not 100% right on this one IMO...


If Virtues are supposed to be the "greater good" in the Creators minds (which is not necessarily the case mind you) then the opposite position is necessarily evil from Creation's point of view.


I mean if there is Compassion: then being selfish and killing the weak is wrong


If there is Conviction: being weak minded is wrong


If there is Temperance: being impulsive and irrational is wrong


If there is Valor: being a coward is wrong


Of course those virtues are subject to the interpretation of men in their laws / code of conduct, but as they are generic drives imprinted in their souls... the higher the virtue, the higher the sense of what's good and what's evil.
 
I've got no idea how you can think that high virtues are good things. But I think Graceful Wicked Masques and Abyssals contradict you massively.


GWM: Compassion is just a bastardized version of the Cup, which is Things Interact Peacefully. Compassion is that, with layers of the person's own interpretation layered over it. Valor is a bastardization of the Sword, which is Things Interact Violently. Same diff.


Abyssals: p31. Compassion is used to "understand the thoughts and emotions of others". It doesn't say anything about killing the weak being wrong. In fact, it says the opposite.


You can give your own perspective here, but I'm reasonably certain I have the books behind me so yours is a house rule.
 
How about... the corebook ?


Compassion: caring for others.


Conviction: endure hardship and inflict suffering upon others.


Temperance: self control


Valor: courage and resolve when facing danger
 
"Caring for other" is an intentionally vague, and in now way infers a sense of moral absolutes. So, no, it doesn't contradict him.
 
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