Soulsteel: Evil?

Thank you, kind sir.


Look at the Cosmic Transcendence of Virtue charms. Used by the designers of Creation you cited just before. The Compassion one means that you can sacrifice a million people to save a billion, and individual tales of woe mean nothing to you. This is the ultimate, logical conclusion of the Compassion virtue, this is what happens when that virtue is at it's highest level.


Is that 'good'? I wouldn't say so. If the ultimate expression of Valor, in the same charm, is knowing no peers or equals then you're in a similarly tricky spot. Using those perspectives, the ultimate expression of Creation's virtues, then there's no reason why you shouldn't kill and torture a hundred people for eternity to make a Daiklave if it saves a thousand more.
 
Making soulsteel is evil, quickly and simply. To be able to forge soulsteel, one must be able to crush the hopes of people you've never known or met. To smite them over and over and over and over. To not heed the screams of pain and the futile prayers for salvation. To bring down the spirit of the heroic, that it would rise no more. To strike and burn the soul so many times, they would rather have an eternity bound in their bones than to suffer your hammer once more.


Using soulsteel? Not evil. But only if you draw the sword, cut yourself, and let the blade feed on your blood just a little. Then swear by the almighty god you serve, that you would save them from this hell. And then, whisper a promise, so very quietly; that you would help them however you can.


Now, if there was a massacred family who trapped themselves in the last son's sword, to bring justice to their killers, that's fine.


But then, it wouldn't be soulsteel.


As to the Virtues, there are ways around it.


Being compassionate means that you simply cannot ignore the pain of others. Fine. But now, you have yet another reason to hate everyone. It means that you can pay attention to the suffering of some, and gleefully ignore others.


Having conviction means that nothing, and I mean nothing; can tell you that what you're doing is wrong. Be it brutality, obsession, or even sadism. In your eyes, everything you do is justified.


Being temperate means that you can ignore everything, be it pain, suffering, or even warnings. It means that you see others as inferior, because they can't resist temptation as well as you.


Being valorous simply means this; Kill everyone in the entire frickkin' battlefield. Enjoy yourself. Don't stop. Find another battlefield. Repeat process.


Are these heroic traits? To us, no. But to Creation, 'heroic' simply means being 'great'. A 'great' something, be it paragon or debauch.


Beware the superman, for he is great. Be wary of him, because of his drive and misplaced passions. Above all, beware the superman; for he has power and you do not.
 
krrackknut said:
Now, if there was a massacred family who trapped themselves in the last son's sword, to bring justice to their killers, that's fine.
But then, it wouldn't be soulsteel.
Click to expand...
Hmm...
Underworld ore mixed with souls beat into the metal until they were willing to go in there instead of being beaten some more?


Yup, it's Soulsteel.


Doesn't matter if they were willing to begin with or not.
 
Eloquent post, Krrackknut, but my point is that the Soulsteel forging process is perhaps only the way it is because the Deathlords who refined it (and the First Age Solars who invented it) are all absolutely insane. Just like how some Necromancy spells murder hundreds of ghosts as sort of senseless collateral damage. Perhaps a more... reasoned, scientific approach to the process could cut down a lot of the, ah, 'waste'.
 
Essentially, highly refining a much much much smaller amount of souls, perhaps even willing ones? That sort of soulsteel, if such a refining process were invented, would definitely not be on the 'evil' end of the axis, if we could actually find it in the Exalted universe. Or, what about synthetic souls? Creating new ones that have never had the chance to exist? Would using those be evil? Torturous? They've never lived, so, essentially are just a different pattern of Essence. What about souls that have been wiped clean by Lethe, and somehow intercepted before reincarnation? Like, taking them out of the cosmic washing machine before the spin cycle.


All of these extremely hypothetical situations could produce morally 'clean' soulsteel in my opinion. However, my biggest issue with soulsteel is not the torture of the souls within, but the fact they are ripped away from reincarnation. Eventually the pool's gonna run dry.
 
krrackknut I think you've been confused by Virtues, and Virtue Flaws.


Willpower is the only way around virtue checks.

Being compassionate means that you simply cannot ignore the pain of others. Fine. But now, you have yet another reason to hate everyone. It means that you can pay attention to the suffering of some, and gleefully ignore others.
Click to expand...
Not if you have Compassion 3+. For example if you are defeating a tyrant oppressing people... and you've beaten him and he begs for his life (Palpatine - Windu - Skywalker scene), you have to make the roll... or spend a wp point to kill him.
Having conviction means that nothing, and I mean nothing; can tell you that what you're doing is wrong. Be it brutality, obsession, or even sadism. In your eyes, everything you do is justified.
Click to expand...
No, Conviction means you are able to live with pain and hardship, yours and others. Doesn't necessarily mean you are feeling okay about it. You're just that comitted.
Conviction 3+ must fail a roll / spend wp to simply give up on anything or anyone they are comitted to. High Conviction characters are extremely dedicated, it doesn't automatically make them inhuman.


You could have to roll Conviction to make a decision inflicting suffering on the helpless... BUT if you also have Compassion 3+ then you have to fail the roll / spend wp to ignore the pleas of the people you're sacrificing afterwards.

Being temperate means that you can ignore everything, be it pain, suffering, or even warnings. It means that you see others as inferior, because they can't resist temptation as well as you.
Click to expand...
Wrong again, ignoring pain belongs to Conviction, Temperance measures your self control over your reactions... High Temperance characters tend to be less epidermic than others, and they must fail the roll / spend wp to simply go nuts / be unreasonable.
Being valorous simply means this; Kill everyone in the entire frickkin' battlefield. Enjoy yourself. Don't stop. Find another battlefield. Repeat process.
Click to expand...
Being Valorous doesn't mean being bloodthirsty... it means you follow the spartan way of life... Never retreat, never surrender... unless you spend wp. Wether you are fighting with a great klave or your bare hands is entirely up to you.
Though you were right about the extremities characters can adopt through the use of CTo(V), I have to remind you that it is a charm that explicitely overrides the normal boundaries of the virtue system, an exception.


So to answer Thron's initial question... using / making soulsteel is evil from the Compassion point of view (-> ignoring the pleas of the oppressed), but it is not a serious problem as long as you keep spending wp to control yourself.
 
Saying the Spartans were not bloodthirsty is a bit...yeah. These are the people who though death in battle was bad because it meant someone was a better warrior than you. You know, the exact opposite of whats in 300.


But, yes, Valor in nothing more than bravery in battle. Just like Compassion is nothing more then caring for other, Temperance is controlling your urges, and Conviction is the ability to do what is needed. Though none of this is particularly specific. What a character needs to fail a check to do is more dependent on how the character sees the world rather then if they have a 3+ in it.
 
What a character needs to fail a check to do is more dependent on how the character sees the world rather then if they have a 3+ in it.
Click to expand...
I strongly disagree with this, mainly because it goes against the system the corebook establishes.


I'm not sure heroic mortals do feel this virtue compulsion the way heroes do... the SoH isn't really clear on this (Virtues function for mortals just as they do for Exalted, but mortals do not suffer from any version of the Great Curse. Nor do they suffer any other adverse effect tied to their Virtues).


Exalts with a virtue 3+ has some emotional commitment to the principle of this virtue, and though they are not 100% sure to act the way they should following the principle of the virtue (they still can fail a virtue check), they are required a failed virtue roll / a wp spent to adopt a behavior going against their commitment.
 
cyl said:
I strongly disagree with this, mainly because it goes against the system the corebook establishes.
Click to expand...
Well, yes. Exalted contradicts the core book all the time.


Abyssals, Infernals and Fair Folk, in particular. They're the "bad guys" of the setting, and yet they all use the same virtues everyone else does. And there are wonderful little box texts explaining how they see these virtues, and how their interpretations thereof are different to the norm.


Ergo, virtues are relativistic.


Here are some citations: Abyssals p31. Infernals p69. Graceful Wicked Masques p30. All of these prove Virtues are relativistic and have exactly as much bearing as the character assigns to them. A compassion 5 Infernal may feel like murdering an innocent, helpless man is a good thing and not have to make a virtue roll. A compassion 5 Abyssal may genuinely believe that existence as a soulsteel artifact purifies the soul and makes one genuinely worthy of Oblivion. What these virtues mean is the level of commitment and belief in one's own ideals, whatever those ideals may be.


Edit: Famous canon example: The White Walker. He's an Abyssal. p13 Abyssals show him doing something horrifying. Yet, Exalted p341 gives him compassion 4 and a justification for his vile deeds. He thinks he's right. That's all that matters.


Edit Edit: Wow, citations really make this forum argument look professional.
 
Of course if you're talking from people outside of / bending the rules of Creation, virtues may vary...
 
But our opinion of proper obedience may vary.
Click to expand...
Eeexactly.


(Also: Cyl, how can you say that 'virtues are 'good' because the authors of Creation made them to be so', and then say 'the Yozis (aka the authors of Creation) are outside Creation and thus their weird virtues is because they're alien and fundamentally conflict with the principles of Creation.


Either or, dude.)
 
Well that's pretty simple: none one Yozis is what it used to be... they've been broken and remade.


And the virtues are "good" because from the moment you got them at 3+, you're driven by idealism which tends to make you a better and more proactive person... someone who's going to act - supposedly - for the benefit of Creation.


Compassion preserves stability, Conviction allows you to be strong, Temperance allows you to be moderate dispassionate and honorable, and Valor allows you to be brave. All are qualities helpful in preserving and maintaining Creation whole... which can be largely interpreted as the greater good.


If a mortal hero has 3+ in all his virtues, then he can't do the wrong choices - adopt a behavior opposed to the priniciple of the virtues -> not doing the greater good -> a contrario doing evil - without it costing him hell in wp.
 
cyl said:
... the virtues are "good" because from the moment you got them at 3+, you're driven by idealism which tends to make you a better and more proactive person... someone who's going to act - supposedly - for the benefit of Creation.
Click to expand...
While you are perfectly within your rights to hold this opinion, it isn't supported by the text in the Core.

VIRTUES
Creation is a world of driving passions and dark emotion.


Heroes challenge gods and demon lords without fear or hesitation,


and lovers journey into the soul-destroying depths of the Wyld in


search of their beloved. Priest-kings sacrifice thousands to satisfy


their dark gods but are touched by the tears of their children.


Being the natural rulers of Creation, the Solar Exalted are


inhumanly passionate and driven. Cursed by the Primordials


before history began, the Chosen are sometimes completely


overwhelmed by emotion. Some scholars insist that the excesses


of the Solar Exalted caused the Dragon-Blooded takeover.


(italics added for emphasis)
Click to expand...
Nowhere in this passage does it say individuals with high Virtues will act "in the best interests of Creation," in fact it says exactly the opposite. Assuming people (and Exalts especially) act in such an altruistic manner ignores several fundamental assumptions about the setting.


Individuals with high Virtues act in their own best interests according to their own moral code. A Lunar with high Compassion might choose to kill a starving beggar because its kinder than allowing them to continue to fail to live according to Lunar's own ideals of strength and self sufficiency. A Dynast with high Compassion might see the harsh subjugation of a Threshold kingdom and forced tribute as a kindness because it brings those people into line with Immaculate philosophy. A Solar with high Compassion and Conviction might brutally mind rape a city into worshiping him because he truly believes its in everyone's best interests to do exactly as he says. Morals in Exalted (just like in reality) are never absolutes and a person's conception of right and wrong are strongly informed by region and upbringing, and are rarely shared by large swaths of Creation.
 
To avoid any further digression, I'll simply quote / answer in the other threads about virtues. :mrgreen:
 
And I'm just going to give up because you've completely ignored the laundry list of points I've made to pick out one. Answer my quotes from Abyssals, Infernals and GWM which prove that virtues are relative and then we'll talk.


Or not.
 
Jump him in the Virtues thread with the same conundrum and he'll have nowhere to hide.
 
Thanqol said:
And I'm just going to give up because you've completely ignored the laundry list of points I've made to pick out one. Answer my quotes from Abyssals, Infernals and GWM which prove that virtues are relative and then we'll talk.
Or not.
Click to expand...
I'll be on this tonight thanks for the page refs :)


I just wanted to avoid polluting this thread further.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 3 (members: 0, guests: 3)

Similar threads

Sora No Kami
A vicious dance with death (RP 1x1 based on the song "My R") TW: Self-loathing, Suicune
Replies
1
Views
93
Sora No Kami
Sora No Kami
Back
Top