Sorcery and the Yozis

[Zaramis]

For Safim:


I just read up on the Mara theory, just for reference. The conditions under which Mara arrives to Brigid are the exact conditions that enables her entrance to the world ( Brigid is weeping for her lover into a pool of water ) and this IS confirmed in 2:nd edition rendering of the story, as described on page 10 of the Black and White Treatise.


One of the events she encounters in her journey is an endless, roaring mad desert. That's just a mildly suspect thing.


Then, she encounters ( in the west ) a man of silver hair and black robes, with a ship of orichalcum and ebony. It took her to the palace of this great prince He welcomed her and "the ocean lord spoke of the mighty Shapings of the Wyld wielded by the mad princes beyond Creation"


The idea that she at last met the Unconquered Sun could just be stories, just like these previous things. Still, there is a sidebar that specifies that this power that sorcery use is taken from the Gods and is NOT done with their permission. That the US can't affect what people do when they invoke his power in spells. "Many sorcerers believe their Great Art reveals nothing less than how the Primordials shaped Creation itself" is another quote. Aka: Sorcery is not given from the gods. Sorcery is something else entirely.


This is all from the 2nd ED White and Black Treatise.


More directly from the book: The Siderals believe that -their- first sorcerer got the power from wresting it from a demon. The Lunars have a story of another person, where grieving is also present. Grieving for a dead lover, just like Brigid, and the thing that causes Mara to arrive. They would not have put these things back in if they did not want it to resemble her.

 

[Zaramis]

Another note from the Lunar's story:


"One night bar-Izahd wept bitterly into Luna's sacred pool, a presence came to him from another world. When he first saw the sad young woman, he suspected her of being a demon in disguise, then she moved and her innocent grace told him that she was far more."


The tale of seduction also fits the theme. Also, she usually appears in a forest glen or something like it, and it's said that she was once a forest spirit or a deer spirit.


And a more fun bit is that the people she spares ( She has Foretell the future, too.. ) from her evil machinations usually go on to cause great injury and harm to the entire world. *cackles*

 

[Zaramis]

Personally, I think that the primordials created Sorcery ( or sorcery is what they used to shape the world ). When they were imprisoned, they still knew the secrets they had used to create it or the secrets behind unlocking it, something they could let go into the world.


Thus, the reason sorcery can use the power of the US AND Ligier ( Total Annihilation ) and the elements and everything. That's my personal theory, all the other ones I state here, the Mara theory etc, are just speculation. I don't support them in particular, I just enjoy arguing. Especially when people ridicule the idea. *cough* Sometimes I get the feeling that you argue against me just because it's me, Safim..

 

[Zaramis]

Debating with myself here: Someone mentioned that that in the Autochtonian-book, there's clearly stated that the primordials created sorcery. Can someone find this? Cause I don't have the book and I hate them?

 

[Persell]

I never said that sorcery was invented by the gods. I said it was brought to the exalts by the gods. Which is far more plausible and subtle than the primodials doing it themselves. Sorcery is primodial shaping, the celestials thinking it comes from the gods is a good thing for the primodials.


And you know the mara thing and the unconquered sun thing. The book says unconquered sun, it never says mara, it hints mara. Which of the two "facts" is more likely to be true. Probably the one with more evidence on its side.


In the end. It differs from creation to creation.

 

[Zaramis]

The Lunar story doesn't even mention the Unconquered Sun, but it clearly details the Mara-person. She's the one most frequently appearing in the different versions.


But, as you say, it varies from Creation to Creation.

 

[Persell]

The first age lunars are just spiteful that they did not master the last circle and are gimped in the necromancy department.

 

[Haku1]

Personally, I see it as the UcS beating the snot out of the Yozi and going... "yeah... you see my posse? You're going to teach 'em some of them fancy ways of weaving essence that you have...


You got that Ebon Dragon? Or me and Saturn here? We gotta bust some of your knee-caps."

 

[Sherwood]

Sounds like you are playing Solars in the Hood :wink:

 

[Sherwood]

Say 'Hello' to my little friend <draws Grand Daiklave>

 

[Haku1]

There's nothing wrong with that concept.


Think of the Great Primordial War as a gang with lots of wanna-bes and thugs being thrown at The Man and winning...


And the whole 'giving of the hood' to the waana-bes so that the gang can go live in nice neighbourhood... and the resulting gang-wars (ursupation and such) are just a way of looking at things.

 

[wordman]

When, in relation to the Primordial War, did Brigid get visited? Before or after?

 

[Haku1]

Depending on how you read things, it's either at the tail-end of the war or just shortly after the war.

 

[Charon]

I just read up on the Mara theory, just for reference. The conditions under which Mara arrives to Brigid are the exact conditions that enables her entrance to the world ( Brigid is weeping for her lover into a pool of water )

The story of Brigid (as I read it in 2nd ed White Treatise) state that her quest takes place during the primordial war.


Crying into a pool for your lover wouldn't have summoned a demon from Malfeas, that place doesn't exist yet.  And if you assume that the Primordials were transformed by their imprisonment (and thus became the Yozis), it's possible Mara herself as we know her doesn't exist at that point.

 

[Flyck]

The first age lunars are just spiteful that they did not master the last circle and are gimped in the necromancy department.

Everyone is gimped in the Necromancy department, except of course the Abyssals and Deathlords...

 

[Vanman]

Depends on how you define "gimped." If, by gimped, you mean not reaching the last level of necromancy, in that case everyone is gimped in the sorcery department except Solars.......

 

[Laundreu]

Lunars can't progress beyond the Iron Circle.

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

Neither can the rare Dragonblooded, Ghostblooded and Mortals that manage access. The Dragonblooded have to be capable by an odd fluke of birth...the Mortals...well, the less said about the hoops they have to jump through to manage such, the better. So, Lunars have one less circle than Solars in Necromancy...little different than Sorcery (same result) or even Martial Arts (Solars can manage Sidereal level MA, Lunars...not so much). So...if 'gimped' means 'in the same position comparative to their mates as in everything else save their own kick ass charms and knacks' then...yep, they're gimped.

 

[Zaramis]

And I think the part about it taking place during the primordial war is just an oversight from the authors, considering they very carefully put the Mara-summoning-circumstances into every story. There's no reason why the Solars would be more correct.


The sidereals ( who are more likely to have a correct story, judging by their more meticulous notekeeping ) even have it specified as a Sidereal who takes the sorcery from a demon.


In fact, It's rather plausible that a sidereal, a lunar, a DB and a solar all found sorcery through different methods, since  it was obvious that it suddenly existed.

 

[Persell]

So, to sum it up, everything that does not fit into your vision is an oversight of the authors while every oh so vague hint that your vision is right is gospel. Ok, got it ^^

 

[wordman]

Yes. The evidently accepted tradition is to call everything that does not fit into your vision "broken", instead.


As for Mara, if you believe the sorcery from Primordials hints, Bridgit being taught during the war doesn't really change anything. While I don't know of anything that claims that Primordials had the same soul structure before becoming Yozis, I don't know of anything that claims they didn't, either. If true, then Mara existed in some form both before and during the Primordial War. Mara just wouldn't, technically, be a demon then. If done during the war, though, such a visitation would still probably have been some Primordial plot.

 

[Persell]

Well basically there are a lot of options possible of how it worked, basically it comes down to what kind of story you want to tell. If your solar sorceror player character is all good and shiny, then the demon story either adds a nice and unexpected twist or ruins the character for the player, especially if you do not anything more with it to let him overcome this faulted heritage.


If you are running a sidereal game, the demon thing can easily highlight the foulness of the solars, if you run a bronze faction game with a more, lets say with a few more shades of gray, then a heroic solar sorcress overcoming her weaknesses and bringing the sorcery that will save creation back from her struggles can leave bronze faction sidereals asking if they are really doing the right thing.

 

[Zaramis]

That works well, Wordman.


And I wasn't saying that I thought it was broken. I stated that it was a possibility, and a plausible thing. I could just as well be wrong about the oversight, but I based my stuff on the discussion on the Exalted wiki with Neph where it was implied that Mara gave it to the Exalted. I see most of the other things in that light.


But, if they really changed it for 2nd ed deliberately, then it could be a myth, or that a primordial soul gave it, or a dozen other ways. Safim makes a good point too about how every story should use it for the most dramatic effect

 

[Flagg]

Yes. The evidently accepted tradition is to call everything that does not fit into your vision "broken", instead.

There's a counter-tradition which involves ignoring mountains of evidence which contradicts the thing you wish to be so, and instead clinging to a few isolated scraps of "evidence" that support your preferred truth.


I'm not saying the "Did sorcery come from the Yozi?" question is quite on par with, say, evolution versus creationism, but in the former case I do think that the writers were quite deliberate in the hints they've dropped. Whether it's hard canon or not, I think it's obvious that the careful reader is intended to see an uncanny similarity between Mara's modus operandi and Brigid's story.

 

[Jukashi]

I think it's just an elaborate web of conflicting ideas arranged so that people are forced to only pick what they want.