Sidereals: Unstoppable Survival Horror Fate Ninja, or not?

[Fabricati]

Re: Sidereals: Unstoppable Survival Horror Fate Ninja, or no


Solanum- the virus postulated in the Zombie Survival Guide, by Max Brooks.


It is, quite seriously, a zoooooooombie virus!


And yes, even it falls before the purging light of Solar Medicine, even though it supposedly has no cure. So there.

 

[brilliantlight]

Re: Sidereals: Unstoppable Survival Horror Fate Ninja, or no

I mean, the list of Sidereal abominations, atrocities, horrors and crimes against the natural order is so large it would take all the clerical demons of Malfeas and clerical gods of Yu-Shan to parse and prepare it... But I think that, at least, cannibalising their fellow exalted is not amongst them.

I don't have all the books. What outside of the Usurption are they guilty of?

Directly or indirectly, everything following the Usurpation. The Great Contagion, for example, would've been more like the Great Snuffles with Solar Medicine getting up in it's shit. Instead it was only slightly nicer to Creation than the Solanum virus would've been, by which I mean you were looking at the real possibility of an extinction of humanity. The Balorian Crusade as well, since the Solars at the Gates would've kicked the fey in their Wyld Nuts and sent them packing with the Directional Titans.
Oh, and the Reclamation and the Abyssals' crusade to destroy all things. Yeah, no Sidereals, no Usurpation? No that.


All the horrors that raged in the wake of the Solars' disappearance, all the collapsing infrastructure, all the riots, all the people the Terrestrials murdered? Yep, them too.


The Sidereals traded one possible Creation-Damnation Scenario for no less than three. Granted, I can't quite find a way to blame them directly for the Locust Crusade, and I can only blame them for the Contagion and the Crusade's effects, not for causing them. They robbed Creation of it's most powerful defenders. If Chungira the Chungian had shown up in the post-Usurpation world, the Primordials would be back on top.


Sidereals are fucking morons. They're fate-ninja, and blind to things outside Fate. The amount of hubris it took to never conceive that they might ot be able to detect and defeat an external threat before it steamrolled Creation is barely-conceivably huge. I think to measure it, I'll have to invent and use the unit "GigaHitlers." They're utterly, cluelessly retarded; morons, babies. They have no business being in charge of Creation, and that's the position they put themselves in. They're the evil vizier who did in the kings and realized he can't control the kingdom on his own, much less effectively fight it's outside enemies.

Is this fair? Should you be judged on what you can't know? Remember, doing nothing was not an option. There were a small number of possiblilites


1) The usurption in which things are screwed up but Creation goes on


2) They warn the Solars and there is a new Golden Age


3) They warn the Solars and there is a Civil War amongst them which ruins Creation


4) They do nothing which causes the end of Creation


The Bronze Faction could be seen as taking the "least evil" choice. Creation may be even in worse shape if the Gold Faction won.

 

[IanPrice]

Re: Sidereals: Unstoppable Survival Horror Fate Ninja, or no

Is this fair? Should you be judged on what you can't know? (...)
The Bronze Faction could be seen as taking the "least evil" choice. Creation may be even in worse shape if the Gold Faction won.

You should be judged for deciding that what you know is all there is to know, when there's ample evidence that you don't know jack about some things (See: the Wyld. It's outside of fate and always has been. That's why the Lunars were the first line of defense against it, not the Sidereals or the Dragon-Blooded, whose post-Primordial-war job was to see to the interior of creation). That's the definition of hubris right there.


There is room in the setting for differing interpretations on who were the good guys and the bad guys, it's true. I tend to see the fivescore fellowship's decision on usurpation as the wrong one, though, when taken objectively. Lytek knew what was up. Nobody thought to ask him, no. There's a problem with all the most powerful exalted shardbearers, and nobody thinks to ask the guy in charge of the shards themselves. Instead they choose the lesser of two evils, because all they could see is evil.

 

[brilliantlight]

Re: Sidereals: Unstoppable Survival Horror Fate Ninja, or no

Is this fair? Should you be judged on what you can't know? (...)
The Bronze Faction could be seen as taking the "least evil" choice. Creation may be even in worse shape if the Gold Faction won.

You should be judged for deciding that what you know is all there is to know, when there's ample evidence that you don't know jack about some things (See: the Wyld. It's outside of fate and always has been. That's why the Lunars were the first line of defense against it, not the Sidereals or the Dragon-Blooded, whose post-Primordial-war job was to see to the interior of creation). That's the definition of hubris right there.


There is room in the setting for differing interpretations on who were the good guys and the bad guys, it's true. I tend to see the fivescore fellowship's decision on usurpation as the wrong one, though, when taken objectively. Lytek knew what was up. Nobody thought to ask him, no. There's a problem with all the most powerful exalted shardbearers, and nobody thinks to ask the guy in charge of the shards themselves. Instead they choose the lesser of two evils, because all they could see is evil.

I was playing Devil's Advocate more than anything else. I just don't think it was as clear cut as you make it sound.

 

[ShadowDragon8685]

Re: Sidereals: Unstoppable Survival Horror Fate Ninja, or no

This is true, however, no Exalt type is more equipped to go it alone than the Solars... And none are less equipped to do so than Sidereals.

I would have said it was more Lunars that are best at going alone. Solars are leaders, so they need followers.

I don't know that I'd actually say that. Lunars are good at surviving alone, but most Solar Charms have zilch in the way of dependencies on followers. A Solar doesn't need followers, and in many cases - most cases in the second age - they're more of a liability than an asset.


You can always defend yourself. You can always run away, and hide, and come back for another go. But you can't defend the poor dumb mortal schmucks who rose up in your name. They can't run as fast as you, they can't hide as fast as you. This is as true for Solars as it is for anybody, and when a Solar decides to do a task - even if that task is "go it alone," they succeed harder than anybody.


Lunars are good at surviving alone. Solars are good at prospering alone.

Solanum- the virus postulated in the Zombie Survival Guide, by Max Brooks.
It is, quite seriously, a zoooooooombie virus!


And yes, even it falls before the purging light of Solar Medicine, even though it supposedly has no cure. So there.

Nah, Solar Medicine could cure it - if they got to the poor schmuck while he was still alive. I was saying that the Great Contagion was only slightly less bad than a daylight-proofed zombie apocalypse would've been on Creation - at that time, under that scenario (no Lunars working on it, no Solars.)

Is this fair? Should you be judged on what you can't know? Remember, doing nothing was not an option. There were a small number of possiblilites


1) The usurption in which things are screwed up but Creation goes on


2) They warn the Solars and there is a new Golden Age


3) They warn the Solars and there is a Civil War amongst them which ruins Creation


4) They do nothing which causes the end of Creation


The Bronze Faction could be seen as taking the "least evil" choice. Creation may be even in worse shape if the Gold Faction won.

Their job was to predict the worst case scenario. In every single instance in which that worst-case came from outside Creation. they completely dropped the ball. Not once did Chejop say "What if another marauding Primordial is out there and comes in. Will we be able to kill it without the Solar Exalted?" Not once did the arrogant asshole say "we're going to be locking up all these Solar Shards. What happens if someone like Malfeas loots them and does horrible things with them?"


Things were not merely "screwed up." They bought a couple thousand years of bleak misery, followed by the cat being let out of the bag; a saber-toothed, vicious cat which is back for blood. Fully half the Solar Exalted are back as the enemies of Creation. Creatures of Darkness, made out of the God-Kings of Creation, and it's all their fault.


The Sidereals fucked-up. They're the custodians of Fate, and they decided to kill off the protectors and rulers of Creation. They arrogantly thought them obsolete, unnecessary; they thought they could protect everything. They were wrong. What if the behemoth that had siphoned the Shards hadn't done half-assed job? What if he was facing 250 Abyssals and 50 Infernals instead of 150 Solars, 100 Abyssals and 50 Infernals? Creation would be in flames by now, the only question would be whether it was going to be nulled out of existence by a swarming horde of the dead, or the Yozi broke free to claim back what was theirs.


They didn't just screw the pooch. They cluster-fucked the pooch!

I was playing Devil's Advocate more than anything else. I just don't think it was as clear cut as you make it sound.

It's exactly that clear-cut. The Sidereals got a hard-on to fuck up as monumentally as possible, and they succeeded far beyond their wildest dreams.

 

[Jukashi]

Re: Sidereals: Unstoppable Survival Horror Fate Ninja, or no


In their defense, they were cursed to do exactly that.


"Hey guys, we've got a problem, let's all get together to talk about it" - good idea.


But when they do all get together, BAM HUBRIS

 

[ShadowDragon8685]

Re: Sidereals: Unstoppable Survival Horror Fate Ninja, or no

In their defense, they were cursed to do exactly that.
"Hey guys, we've got a problem, let's all get together to talk about it" - good idea.


But when they do all get together, BAM HUBRIS

Love of sol, have they never heard of teleconferencing?! >_<


It also seems unlikely that they'd all limit break the same way, at the same time. Shouldn't there have been approximately 100 different agendas all of which were busy trying to use their ubersecret?


That's kind of the problem with the Sidereal limit break. When a Solar flips his wig, it's pretty obvious he's flipped. When a Sidereal flips their wig, they look and act more or less exactly the same until they've unleashed the Kukla.

 

[Brickwall]

Re: Sidereals: Unstoppable Survival Horror Fate Ninja, or no


Limit break? Dude, when Exalted was written, Sidereals had no Limit Break. They were never supposed to. It was intended to manifest much more subtly in them because, well, Sidereals are all about the subtle.


There's a reason nobody but Lytek has figured out this Great Curse business. It's not that obvious in-setting.

 

[ShadowDragon8685]

Re: Sidereals: Unstoppable Survival Horror Fate Ninja, or no

Limit break? Dude, when Exalted was written, Sidereals had no Limit Break. They were never supposed to. It was intended to manifest much more subtly in them because, well, Sidereals are all about the subtle.
There's a reason nobody but Lytek has figured out this Great Curse business. It's not that obvious in-setting.

Translation: It's an unenforced excuse for the most colossally bone-headed decision in the game's history to have been made.

 

[Jukashi]

Re: Sidereals: Unstoppable Survival Horror Fate Ninja, or no

It also seems unlikely that they'd all limit break the same way, at the same time. Shouldn't there have been approximately 100 different agendas all of which were busy trying to use their ubersecret?
That's kind of the problem with the Sidereal limit break. When a Solar flips his wig, it's pretty obvious he's flipped. When a Sidereal flips their wig, they look and act more or less exactly the same until they've unleashed the Kukla.

That's only one way in which the Sidereal Great curse manifests. Another aspect is a tendency to arrogance which increases with age and numbers. The more Sidereals gather and act together, the more prone they are to screwing up.

 

[ShadowDragon8685]

Re: Sidereals: Unstoppable Survival Horror Fate Ninja, or no

That's only one way in which the Sidereal Great curse manifests. Another aspect is a tendency to arrogance which increases with age and numbers. The more Sidereals gather and act together, the more prone they are to screwing up.

I think arrogance with age and numbers is just a "sapient creature" thing so much as anything else.


But yeah, groups of Sidereals are kind of whack-o. This begs the question of why nobody ever noticed that they make their worst decisions when clustered together and came up with the idea that never should more than four gather in one place at one time.

 

[Brickwall]

Re: Sidereals: Unstoppable Survival Horror Fate Ninja, or no


I'm not sure why we're qualifying the Great Prophecy as a bad decision. I think prophecies tend to be good ideas.


As far as the Usurpation, well, I don't think we can qualify that as a bad idea either. It 100% prevented the end of the world at the hands of the Solar Empire, just like they thought it would, and led to an age of lesser glory, just like they thought it would. Likewise, the Vision of Gold, had it been the one to gain majority, would not have been a bad idea either, as it would have had a chance of preventing the end of the world and leading to a Golden Age. Yes, two things can oppose without either being 'bad'. Funny that.


But I'm certainly not arguing that a good deal of hubris went into it. It did. But that doesn't invalidate the decision. Appeal to source is not a valid method of evaluating a decision or idea.


Hmm...I have an idea to make a version of Exalted where the Vision of Gold was followed, and Bad End happened. Yes, this could be an interesting project indeed.

 

[ShadowDragon8685]

Re: Sidereals: Unstoppable Survival Horror Fate Ninja, or no

I'm not sure why we're qualifying the Great Prophecy as a bad decision. I think prophecies tend to be good ideas.
As far as the Usurpation, well, I don't think we can qualify that as a bad idea either. It 100% prevented the end of the world at the hands of the Solar Empire, just like they thought it would, and led to an age of lesser glory, just like they thought it would. Likewise, the Vision of Gold, had it been the one to gain majority, would not have been a bad idea either, as it would have had a chance of preventing the end of the world and leading to a Golden Age. Yes, two things can oppose without either being 'bad'. Funny that.

The Sidereals are blind to things not within Fate. It never once occurred to them that the flaw with Solars was external, not internal, and something that could be repaired. It never occurred to them that the Great Maker could fix it, or that the Neverborn were responsible. They never stopped to consider that they might have been playing into the hands of something that was Outside Fate. Nor did they stop to consider that their great little bronzey bronze world would put Creation into position to be royally butt-fucked by one of those same Outside Fate things.


It was a bad idea, because they failed to think things through. They prophesied until Ahlat brought the herd home, but they never once stopped to say "You know, we're the unquestionable masters of knowing-things-within-Fate. What if there's a problem outside Fate?"

But I'm certainly not arguing that a good deal of hubris went into it. It did. But that doesn't invalidate the decision. Appeal to source is not a valid method of evaluating a decision or idea.
Hmm...I have an idea to make a version of Exalted where the Vision of Gold was followed, and Bad End happened. Yes, this could be an interesting project indeed.

Wake up and smell the marching armies of corpses! Bad End is coming, the Sidereals' actions only exacerbated the situation. Worst came to worst, other Solars could've stopped the few Solars whose particular madnesses led them to devastation, but now Creation is fucked! The Death Lords have sufficient power to threaten all of Creation at once, and they've got Death Knights backing them up. The Reclamation is coming, and the Green Sun Princes want to turn Creation into Hell, literally!


They didn't just screw the pooch, they pile-drived the poor mutt onto a gigantic dildo!

 

[Kyeudo]

Re: Sidereals: Unstoppable Survival Horror Fate Ninja, or no


I think the Vision of Gold is the inevitable prediction of Creation's future. One day, a Solar is going to find out about the Great Curse and how he goes about fixing it will decide what comes about from it (if things Outside Fate don't kill everything first). The Vision of Bronze just bought Creation time before they find out the outcome.

 

[ShadowDragon8685]

Re: Sidereals: Unstoppable Survival Horror Fate Ninja, or no

I think the Vision of Gold is the inevitable prediction of Creation's future. One day, a Solar is going to find out about the Great Curse and how he goes about fixing it will decide what comes about from it (if things Outside Fate don't kill everything first). The Vision of Bronze just bought Creation time before they find out the outcome.

Are you mad? The vision of Bronze doomed them all! Hello? Abyssals? Infernals?


Much worse than any Limit Breaking Solar!

 

[Kyeudo]

Re: Sidereals: Unstoppable Survival Horror Fate Ninja, or no

Are you mad? The vision of Bronze doomed them all! Hello? Abyssals? Infernals?


Much worse than any Limit Breaking Solar!

But also much much later than an Essence 10 Limit Breaking Solar. Fourteen Centuries later, to be precise.

 

[Brickwall]

Re: Sidereals: Unstoppable Survival Horror Fate Ninja, or no


If you include Outside Fate, then none of the Prophecy mattered, so the Sidereals could have done whatever. They could have all gone on a Solar-humping spree and it would have mattered fuck-all (literally). It's an argument that really has no bearing on the decision, since it weighs against all factors equally.


The Usurpation killed the most powerful Akuma and (at the time) Necromancers to ever exist. Think about that. The Outside Fate guys were ALREADY getting to Creation. THROUGH THE SOLARS. Those Solars who pursued power through Malfeas and Oblivion were causing huge problems, and the other Solars were doing nothing to stop it (the Deliberative did not check itself effectively. If it did, the Great Prophecy would never have happened). The Sidereals abandoned a position that was already assailed by the Outside Fate-ers and went to one that they hadn't gone after yet. And it lasted a long time, and went exactly as they predicted.


Still, I have come to agree that the Vision of Gold was the right one to follow, because I spent the whole day drawing up an AR Exalted where that happened. And it is a lot like Star Wars. Being more like Star Wars makes it objectively better.


I will be putting up a huge thread for my new setting somewhere else on this forum. I think that many people will find it interesting. It will go up when I think of a good name for it.

 

[MorkaisChosen]

Re: Sidereals: Unstoppable Survival Horror Fate Ninja, or no


Empire in Red and Gold?


[/plagiarism]

 

[veekie]

Re: Sidereals: Unstoppable Survival Horror Fate Ninja, or no


I was thinking self fulfilling prophecy myself. Think of it this way, they saw in the future of some of the Solars(approximately half) causing the end of Creation as we know it. They did not see the why or how, as both of those are outside fate, nor thanks to their Limits, could they see outside the potential benefits of the Usurpation..


Now we have half the Solars actively working towards the damnation of Creation as we know it...as Abyssals/Infernals. THAT is the true ultimate threat, Limit Breaking Solars would normally be about even odds of good/bad, sure, they go insane and extreme, but people of the heroic natures to become Solars means that the main response to a Limit Break is for another Solar to put the bugger down.


The Great Contagion and the Wyld invasion were a direct consequence of the Solar genocide, seeing as the masterminds(if I'm not mistaken, the ghost of a dead solar brewed up the former and a deathknight gave the invitation for the latter, breaking whatever binding kept the Fair Folk outside) were ex-Solars who wouldn't have been able to do the same unopposed originally.


So yeah, they screwed the pooch thanks to incomplete information.


Half a prophecy is a hell lot worse than no prophecy at all.

 

[Brickwall]

Re: Sidereals: Unstoppable Survival Horror Fate Ninja, or no


Well, those things were reasons that Creation was lessened, just as the Vision of Bronze said it was going to be, so again, the Sidereals were rather correct. Also, Deathknights did not exist until the Solars were freed, only the Deathlords, who are different.

 

[ShadowDragon8685]

Re: Sidereals: Unstoppable Survival Horror Fate Ninja, or no

Well, those things were reasons that Creation was lessened, just as the Vision of Bronze said it was going to be, so again, the Sidereals were rather correct. Also, Deathknights did not exist until the Solars were freed, only the Deathlords, who are different.

Those things were not the reason Creation was lessened. Those were the "barely survivable catastrofucks" that they didn't foresee coming.


The things they did see coming was the monumental collapse of Proto-Shinmaic Vortex-powered equipment and all the other things that needed the Twilight Caste diligently Wyld Shaping to maintain. Neither Terrestrials, Sidereals nor Lunars (not that Lunars were welcome or would have helped if they were,) could replace those things. Once the existing supplies were gone, that was it - the machines that enabled Creation's booming megapolis-sized populations were collapsing, people were starving, they were rioting. The Dragon-Blooded, bloody pragmatists that they were, solved these problems by having lots of wars to kill off surplus mortals, and when that proved insufficient just started torching entire riots until they'd gotten Creation back down under the carrying capacity that they themselves could support.


That was the lessening that the Sidereals could foresee, because it was all within Fate. They could not foresee Death Lords (and frankly, Creation should be toast by now with the Death Lords,) or the Reclamation or the rise of Abyssals. They were fucking blind, and worse, blind to the fact that they lacked the sensory ability to know that.


I don't have the ability to see into the infra-red spectrum. However, I know it exists, I can conceptualize the possibility of a creature with perfect visible-light spectrum camouflage, and I can put in motion plans to exploit the infra-red spectrum to detect that creature.


The Sidereals lack the ability to see Outside Fate. However, they know it exists. They failed to take it into account. It's not a matter of "they couldn't have known." A sniper who sees a man holding a gun over what looks like hostages and takes a shot, without knowing that the hostages have been tied standing up with empty guns in their hands, and kills the hostages, was acting on "best faith" information. Sidereals have no such excuse; there was absolutely no reason to reasonably believe that things Outside Fate weren't going to be able to take advantage of the Solar's absence. They knew damn well there was a lot of hostile shit out there.

 

[Brickwall]

Re: Sidereals: Unstoppable Survival Horror Fate Ninja, or no


So despite the fact that they didn't see any of that coming, Creation turned out exactly how they thought it would? Interesting.


The end results of the Visions in the Great Prophecy were not expected to be eternal states. Even in the unlikely event that they reached that new Golden Age, some shit would someday, in the far future, happen to change everything. That's just how things are. The Great Prophecy predicted the forseeable future, the future they could affect. And it was correct. What happens after the coming of the Bronze Age, or after the coming of the Golden Age, are completely outside the realms of knowledge, and thus, there is no reason to act on them. The Bronze Age happened. Now bad shit is happening. If the Golden Age had happened, eventually, bad shit would happen. They just did what they knew would definitely stop bad shit for as long as they could. You bake the best cake you can. Sure, someone can spit in it, but that has no impact on how well you baked the cake. You can't bake a spit-proof cake.

 

[Jukashi]

Re: Sidereals: Unstoppable Survival Horror Fate Ninja, or no


You haven't seen Nova try to cook!

 

[Brickwall]

Re: Sidereals: Unstoppable Survival Horror Fate Ninja, or no


Inverting the charge of the photon array does not count as baking.

 

[veekie]

Re: Sidereals: Unstoppable Survival Horror Fate Ninja, or no

You haven't seen Nova try to cook!

I trust this lack will be amended at some point.