Sidereals: Unstoppable Survival Horror Fate Ninja, or not?

[ShadowDragon8685]

Also:

Infernals? Fuggedaboutit! Even if you can trust them (which you can't, since they're literally incapable of disobeying the Yozi under certain conditions unless I've been grossly misinformed,) they're weaker than you in that their powers are loaded down with crazy conditionals. Sidereals will make hash browns out of them with their soul fall off attacks.

You've been grossly misinformed. It is amazingly easy for Infernals to get around Torment. Just monologue to a Fair Folk about your evil plan to turn the Wyld into more creation before marrying him and dumping him in the scorpion pit. OR:


"MUAHAHAHA! Now, my dear satrap, I have you in my hands! Or rather, in my chains suspending you over a pool of acidic lava snakes! Now that I have you in my grasp, I shall tell you my heroic plan! First, I shall return your ill-gotten throne to the rebel leader! Then, I shall use your fortune to fund the orphanage run by the sister you never cared about- and then I shall MARRY her! And with your funds in my hands, your satrapy shall never go hungry again! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Minions! Bring me the Death ray- and remember to set it on Stun!"

My Sol!! How dastardly! Giving money to children? He'll create a welfare state!


Point taken.

And I've got no idea what you mean by 'crazy conditionals'. You're drastically misinformed about Infernals.

As I understand it, a given Yozi's charms can be disabled - like hypothetically, one who loves cats would disable any and all charms used in the course of actions which would, intentionally or otherwise, harm felines, directly or otherwise. Which would, needless to say, make that Infernal very much hate the hell out of himself if he ever had to go and fight a cat-totem Lunar.

Lunars? I wouldn't trust them. They spend all their time gazing into the Wyld, and when you gaze upon eternity, it gazes back into you. The trustworthy ones are strong enough to roll with you right up until you face an enemy strong enough, then they're strong enough to die saving your life. The strong ones you can't trust, because they know damn well that if you get strong enough, you'll come to rule them, and they've no interest in being ruled. They may play ball with you, but remember that these elder Lunars play full-court Jungleball, and you can trust them second only to a Sidereal before they start throwing the ball at you.

Bullshit. Lunars have kept hidden from Sidereals since the Usurpation, and the only reason they aren't ruling the world right now is that they haven't realized they're by far the most powerful group in Creation. They hang out in the Wyld because they know it keeps them hidden from Sidereals. Oh, and they're each and every one immune to Shaping. Every one. Try punching the soul off that.

Don't forget: Shao-Lin Power Rangers.


Also, check again. The way I was told, Lunars are immune to hostile shapeshifting - IE, you can't turn their blood into acid or something. It protects them very well against the Fae, but as I was taught, leaves them wide open for Soul-B Gon Punches.


Besides, I wouldn't put it past the Sidereals to invent a martial art style just for the purpose of getting around Lunar's most famous defenses - designing poisonous contact-strikes that bypass one's health levels and stamina and go directly to poisoning one's sense of self, destroying willpower, motes, and soul.

And Sidereals? You might as well commit suicide. There's only two Sidereals you can trust: One who has murdered one (or more) of her own kind and is hence being actively hunted as Anathema, in which case you probably don't want her around, and the posthumous kind.

Propaganda and malarkey.

If they're not actively steering you into the Wyld Hunt's tender loving caresses, they're damn sure using them for their own ends, which will be followed by tender caresses from the Wyld Hunt once you've outlived your usefulness. Unless you see other Sidereals actually trying to murder your Siddie - and can get this confirmed with Perfect intent-reading charms to ascertain genuine intent on the would-be murderer, treat them as most-likely a plant. And even then, they might still well be - Siddies are the masters of lies, after all. Feed the Hit-Siddie a bunch of malark about the plant being everything her cover story says she is, and give her a genuine omega order on the 'rogue' Sidereal, knowing full well she's not going to succeed.

I'm not sure where I went with that tangent. My point is this: Sidereals are the boogey-men. They're the invulnerable attacker who chases you down a hallway, your weapons can't touch them, and they wipe out most of your resources in a single exchange of blows, so you run. You treat them like an Agent and you're not Neo: you run. You run your ass off. Eventually you'll be Neo, but that's a long, long time off. Now, the best you can hope for is a quick skirmish to throw them off their balance and then leg it. If you stand and fight, you die.

I've got no idea why you're playing Exalted. The point of Exalted is that you ARE Neo, right now. Unless I've been drastically misinformed.

There's degrees of being Neo, remember. In the end, Neo didn't win against Smith, who was the first Agent he ever fought and (thought) he had killed. Until your Essence score is 7 or so, and you've had time and XP to earn Essence-7 charms and combos, there are still beings out there which can more or less rape you any time you cross their path. The best you can hope for is to give them a bit of hell and get away with your life.


And unfortunately, many of those beings are high-essence Sidereals. They live a long damn time, they're the Exalt type with the lowest turnover, meaning the average Siddie is most likely to not be a newbie at all. And they certainly don't play fair!

Okay, maybe not exactly that way - it's more like you attack them, they combo a perfect and parry your attacks, then start launching a flurry of cheap soul-fall-off attacks, forcing you to mote tap out, then they brutally murderize you on their next turn. Or worse, the ST just rolls, and if you don't have Surprise Anticipation Method comboed with Seven Shadow Evasion, you just die in your sleep.

If we're playing paranoia exalted where your Storyteller thinks it's fine to pull that shit without being brained by the Dungeon Master's Guide, then you do have SSE comboed with SAM.

It's not so much the fact that the GM thinks it's okay, as that the Sidereals prefer that sort of thing. It's kind of obligatory - eventually, if you go around Faegaming yourselves as the unstoppable heroes of your own story, you're going to attract enough attention to get a real Sidereal Hit Squad sent after you, and at that point... Well, the GM has two options. Play the Sidereals as if they actually are the dangerous bastards they've always been held to be, which involves a lot of sleepy-time assassinations, or play them up like retard babies with an incredible propaganda arm that makes them out to be dangerous rat-bastards.


And if you do the latter, then a lot of Exalted loses it's bite. If you do the former, your players tend to need new characters in short order.

Children check their closets at night for the Boogeyman. The Boogeyman checks his closet for Chuck Norris. Chuck Norris checks his closet for Sidereals. You follow me? They're hostile beings of unimaginable power and tragically-imaginable cheapness. Your defenses won't defend you, your best offensive will hit empty air, and you will die.

You seem to think Sidereals are cheap. That is because you are playing it wrong. If Sidereals were omnipresent omnipotent fate ninjas who all cowered before, then the Core Book and the Sidereals book would be very differently written to what they are.

Sidereals are the undisputed masters of cheapness. They're the five-fingered discount. The Deathlords become green with envy for Sidereal Cheese - or worse, gloat because they still have the SMA cheese they had in life.


That's what Sidereals specialize in: attacking you on your weakest front whilst ensuring you may only retaliate on their strongest front. Some sidereals are manipulators and deviators - you never see them, but they're the bastards responsible for every single unit of whatever macguffin you desperately need being bought up and shipped away before you get there. They're the ones who tip the Wyld Hunt off and have Immaculate Monks hounding you twenty steps behind, all the while pretending to be someone dependant upon you or actually allied to you.


But some are fighters. They're the ones who pop in and steal your plot token out of no-fricking-where, just because they can, and they subject the two baddest guys you've ever faced to a Worf Effect victimization to prove just how badass they are. They're the ones who show up on your doorstep in the middle of a blinding winter while you're in the outhouse, completely unprepared for combat, with a small army of mercenary OutCastes. They're the ones who try to assassinate you before you Exalt.


And some of them are assassins. Some of them creep through the night, taking down other Exalts when they're as vulnerable as any human - when they're sleeping. They study you to learn your weaknesses - if they know you have ITET, they won't use poison. If you have IPP, they won't use Shaping. If you have that charm that makes you immune to hazardous environments, they won't reroute a lava flow into your living room, and if you have a charm that makes you immune to crippling, they won't Cripple you.


Or worse, they will. They'll throw a Crippling attack to make you put up your Crippling Immunity, then follow it up with a combo'd Shaping attack to punch your soul off while you can't throw IPP up. They'll do this in your sleep, too, to make you burn through your motes prodigiously whilst comboing SSE and SAM.

Edit: I don't often come out and say you're playing it wrong. But I cannot condone the use of all-powerful NPCs ever.

Neither do I, but every setting needs it's boogey-men. The horrific, unstoppable monsters that it's PCs are afraid of, so that when you finally stop them, it's nigh-orgasmic.

Taking this further should be to another thread.

Have done so.

 

[Thanqol]

As I understand it, a given Yozi's charms can be disabled - like hypothetically, one who loves cats would disable any and all charms used in the course of actions which would, intentionally or otherwise, harm felines, directly or otherwise. Which would, needless to say, make that Infernal very much hate the hell out of himself if he ever had to go and fight a cat-totem Lunar.

... no. That's not how Infernals work.


What you might be thinking of is some unique flaws of invulnerability (Malfeas' perfect defense only works within city walls, for example), or unique limitations on attacks (Adorjan can't use her offensive charms at range). But these are incredibly easy to work around. I designed a Chosen of Adorjan who combines the Silent Wind's unbelievable speed with the Ebon Dragon's ranged dickishness. I wouldn't want to fight that chick.


Theoretically, if there was a Yozi who embodied the concept of felinity then harming cats would be a flaw of invulnerability. But there isn't.

Don't forget: Shao-Lin Power Rangers.
Also, check again. The way I was told, Lunars are immune to hostile shapeshifting - IE, you can't turn their blood into acid or something. It protects them very well against the Fae, but as I was taught, leaves them wide open for Soul-B Gon Punches.


Besides, I wouldn't put it past the Sidereals to invent a martial art style just for the purpose of getting around Lunar's most famous defenses - designing poisonous contact-strikes that bypass one's health levels and stamina and go directly to poisoning one's sense of self, destroying willpower, motes, and soul.

The way you were told was wrong. Shaping effects is a bigger category than Wyld mutation. It includes Astrology and many many Sidereal charms. Sidereal Martial Arts are often Shaping Effects. They're very powerful, but they're still Shaping Effects. Lunars tattoos are flat immunity. Solars can pick up low Essence integrity charms to be immune as well.


And while you may invent a Sidereal style that defies every convention and rule of Exalted for the purpose of breaking the setting in Sidereals' favour, such a style does not canonically exist and cannot be used for this argument.

If they're not actively steering you into the Wyld Hunt's tender loving caresses, they're damn sure using them for their own ends, which will be followed by tender caresses from the Wyld Hunt once you've outlived your usefulness. Unless you see other Sidereals actually trying to murder your Siddie - and can get this confirmed with Perfect intent-reading charms to ascertain genuine intent on the would-be murderer, treat them as most-likely a plant. And even then, they might still well be - Siddies are the masters of lies, after all. Feed the Hit-Siddie a bunch of malark about the plant being everything her cover story says she is, and give her a genuine omega order on the 'rogue' Sidereal, knowing full well she's not going to succeed.

There's a Gold Faction, encompassing roughly 30+ Sidereals, with growing membership now the Solars are back. Presumably what they do with their free time is stop Death Squads hitting every new Solar circle.


Or you could ignore that and make the Sidereals unified in direction and purpose. But then you're into deep houserule country. Part of what stops the world being like you describe it is because the Sidereals don't agree.

There's degrees of being Neo, remember. In the end, Neo didn't win against Smith, who was the first Agent he ever fought and (thought) he had killed. Until your Essence score is 7 or so, and you've had time and XP to earn Essence-7 charms and combos, there are still beings out there which can more or less rape you any time you cross their path. The best you can hope for is to give them a bit of hell and get away with your life.

There are much better boogymen in the world of Exalted than Sidereals. If Sidereals were intended as omnipotent ninja deathsquads they'd have written the Sidereals book about how to run omnipotent ninja death squads rather than writing the Sidereals book as being about special agents of fate who manipulate things with subtle hands and long term plans. Since the Bronze Faction in Exalted core, Sidereals, and any other combination of books existing have been described as looking out for Creation's best interests (in their minds), and not frothing fanatics at the cause of Bronze, we can assume they are not those people.


The High Essence Sidereals presumably have better things to do with their time than chasing down one of the 600+ Celestial Exalts running around Creation breaking everything.

And unfortunately, many of those beings are high-essence Sidereals. They live a long damn time, they're the Exalt type with the lowest turnover, meaning the average Siddie is most likely to not be a newbie at all. And they certainly don't play fair!

This is true. I see them not playing fair by sending one Sidereal, who stabotages Solar efforts, manipulates Solars into suicidal charges at the Wyld or the Deathlords, who shatters Solar business interests and murders Solar sympathisers and turn them against other enemies of the Bureau of Destiny. I don't see them playing unfair by saying bam you're dead.


Standard Sidereal practice should be to get two problems to 'solve' each other. Not to deal with the problem yourself. They're viziers.

It's not so much the fact that the GM thinks it's okay, as that the Sidereals prefer that sort of thing. It's kind of obligatory - eventually, if you go around Faegaming yourselves as the unstoppable heroes of your own story, you're going to attract enough attention to get a real Sidereal Hit Squad sent after you, and at that point... Well, the GM has two options. Play the Sidereals as if they actually are the dangerous bastards they've always been held to be, which involves a lot of sleepy-time assassinations, or play them up like retard babies with an incredible propaganda arm that makes them out to be dangerous rat-bastards.

The Sidereals do not prefer that thing. They are 100 in number, perhaps 60 of those bronze faction. There are 600 celestial exalts roaming Creation. If they have, say, 30 Elder Bronzies, they've formed 6 free roaming death squads. There are 600 celestial exalts. Do the math.


Like it says in the Sidereal astrology chapter, "The Sidereal is likely to slap a curse on Admiral Sand and point him in the general direction of something dangerous and turn to one of the other 500 plus celestial exalts running roughshod over fate."

And if you do the latter, then a lot of Exalted loses it's bite. If you do the former, your players tend to need new characters in short order.

Exalted does not lose it's bite without death squads. Think about the other antagonists of the setting, the REAL antagonists of the setting. They're allready virtually unbeatable, without Sidereal help.

Sidereals are the undisputed masters of cheapness. They're the five-fingered discount. The Deathlords become green with envy for Sidereal Cheese - or worse, gloat because they still have the SMA cheese they had in life.
That's what Sidereals specialize in: attacking you on your weakest front whilst ensuring you may only retaliate on their strongest front. Some sidereals are manipulators and deviators - you never see them, but they're the bastards responsible for every single unit of whatever macguffin you desperately need being bought up and shipped away before you get there. They're the ones who tip the Wyld Hunt off and have Immaculate Monks hounding you twenty steps behind, all the while pretending to be someone dependant upon you or actually allied to you.

I agree Sidereals should attack when their foes are weakest. They're also smart. Why the hell would they waste time dealing with 600+ Solars directly? That's what they made the Wyld Hunt for. Maybe one Sidereal will ride along with a hunt as a sanctioned observer, and maybe that one Sidereal will lend aid if he feels he needs to. But they don't have the resources for death squads. And at the end of the day, what have they accomplished? Solars exalt, wander around, settle down, and build nations. It's the natural life cycle of a Solar. The Sidereals don't want to fight that war because then they're suddenly fighting the Primordial War - a few very old, powerful beings against infinitely respawning Solars. Either creation will die or they will lose. They don't want that.

But some are fighters. They're the ones who pop in and steal your plot token out of no-fricking-where, just because they can, and they subject the two baddest guys you've ever faced to a Worf Effect victimization to prove just how badass they are. They're the ones who show up on your doorstep in the middle of a blinding winter while you're in the outhouse, completely unprepared for combat, with a small army of mercenary OutCastes. They're the ones who try to assassinate you before you Exalt.

Sure, let's do the math. Of those 30 Elder Sidereals who are bronze faction, say 6 are battles and 6 are endings. That's 12 combat-favored Sidereals. Maybe another 8 are specialized enough in direct battle to go along. So now you've got 4 circles of Sidereals capable of hunting Celestials. And accidents will still happen.


Sidereals aren't dumb enough for that shit.

And some of them are assassins. Some of them creep through the night, taking down other Exalts when they're as vulnerable as any human - when they're sleeping. They study you to learn your weaknesses - if they know you have ITET, they won't use poison. If you have IPP, they won't use Shaping. If you have that charm that makes you immune to hazardous environments, they won't reroute a lava flow into your living room, and if you have a charm that makes you immune to crippling, they won't Cripple you.

Spending time studying a celestial exalt's weaknesses is time not spent managing the effects of the other 599 celestial exalts. Seriously, who has the time?

Or worse, they will. They'll throw a Crippling attack to make you put up your Crippling Immunity, then follow it up with a combo'd Shaping attack to punch your soul off while you can't throw IPP up. They'll do this in your sleep, too, to make you burn through your motes prodigiously whilst comboing SSE and SAM.

And what have they achieved?

Neither do I, but every setting needs it's boogey-men. The horrific, unstoppable monsters that it's PCs are afraid of, so that when you finally stop them, it's nigh-orgasmic.

There is something to this. I saw a Dragon Blooded ram a daiklave through a Sidereal's chest while she was monologuing. She failed her Duck Fate roll. She died.


Just like that the Bureau of Destiny was set back 780 years.


It was a good moment for the players. But it was also a good moment for proving why there are no death squads.


Edit: Also? My signature.


Edit Edit:


Your position is not unique; when I introduced my lady friend to Exalted, she instinctively hated Sidereals. She didn't know anything about them, but she hated them. She held this prejudice through several of her characters.


I ran a game; I played Sidereals how I imagined them to be; the careful, guiding hand behind the throne. The forgettable, ethereal manipulators. The people who'd create a fake man to be the perfect lover, and have him die heroically saving the Solar's life so that she'd swear eternal vengeance on the one who 'killed' him. Eventually she looked up and told me, "Somehow you've made me love Sidereals".


Thus I am reasonably committed to my NO DEATHSQUADS worldview. They're better than that. They're deeper than that.

 

[Aasharu]

As I understand it, a given Yozi's charms can be disabled - like hypothetically, one who loves cats would disable any and all charms used in the course of actions which would, intentionally or otherwise, harm felines, directly or otherwise. Which would, needless to say, make that Infernal very much hate the hell out of himself if he ever had to go and fight a cat-totem Lunar.

... no. That's not how Infernals work.


What you might be thinking of is some unique flaws of invulnerability (Malfeas' perfect defense only works within city walls, for example), or unique limitations on attacks (Adorjan can't use her offensive charms at range). But these are incredibly easy to work around. I designed a Chosen of Adorjan who combines the Silent Wind's unbelievable speed with the Ebon Dragon's ranged dickishness. I wouldn't want to fight that chick.


Theoretically, if there was a Yozi who embodied the concept of felinity then harming cats would be a flaw of invulnerability. But there isn't.

It's actually kind of the opposite, ShadowDragon. Once a Green Sun Prince learns any infernal charm from a specific Yozi, all GSP everywhere can learn all of that Yozi's charms, even without a teacher. That's actually a point of reluctance for most of the other Yozi's who aren't in on the Infernal scheme yet.

Don't forget: Shao-Lin Power Rangers.
Also, check again. The way I was told, Lunars are immune to hostile shapeshifting - IE, you can't turn their blood into acid or something. It protects them very well against the Fae, but as I was taught, leaves them wide open for Soul-B Gon Punches.


Besides, I wouldn't put it past the Sidereals to invent a martial art style just for the purpose of getting around Lunar's most famous defenses - designing poisonous contact-strikes that bypass one's health levels and stamina and go directly to poisoning one's sense of self, destroying willpower, motes, and soul.

The way you were told was wrong. Shaping effects is a bigger category than Wyld mutation. It includes Astrology and many many Sidereal charms. Sidereal Martial Arts are often Shaping Effects. They're very powerful, but they're still Shaping Effects. Lunars tattoos are flat immunity. Solars can pick up low Essence integrity charms to be immune as well.


And while you may invent a Sidereal style that defies every convention and rule of Exalted for the purpose of breaking the setting in Sidereals' favour, such a style does not canonically exist and cannot be used for this argument.

Besides, one of the big themes with Luna and the Lunars in general is adaptability. Those tattoos are designed to handle basically anything, and while a Yozi can shape a Lunar that's willing to let them do so, I doubt anything else would work. Consider that the Wyld is infinitely more creative than any Sidereal, and even it wasn't able to breach the Lunar's defenses.

If they're not actively steering you into the Wyld Hunt's tender loving caresses, they're damn sure using them for their own ends, which will be followed by tender caresses from the Wyld Hunt once you've outlived your usefulness. Unless you see other Sidereals actually trying to murder your Siddie - and can get this confirmed with Perfect intent-reading charms to ascertain genuine intent on the would-be murderer, treat them as most-likely a plant. And even then, they might still well be - Siddies are the masters of lies, after all. Feed the Hit-Siddie a bunch of malark about the plant being everything her cover story says she is, and give her a genuine omega order on the 'rogue' Sidereal, knowing full well she's not going to succeed.

There's a Gold Faction, encompassing roughly 30+ Sidereals, with growing membership now the Solars are back. Presumably what they do with their free time is stop Death Squads hitting every new Solar circle.


Or you could ignore that and make the Sidereals unified in direction and purpose. But then you're into deep houserule country. Part of what stops the world being like you describe it is because the Sidereals don't agree.

It's true that they aren't united, but at the same time, they aren't completely fractured, either. You probably don't have to book it as soon as you encounter a Sidereal, but at the same time, if you kill them, you're going to draw the attention of whatever faction they were with. When a Sidereal shows up, it's time to start being cautious, and checking to make sure you're not going to step into a big pile of Sidereal plot.

There's degrees of being Neo, remember. In the end, Neo didn't win against Smith, who was the first Agent he ever fought and (thought) he had killed. Until your Essence score is 7 or so, and you've had time and XP to earn Essence-7 charms and combos, there are still beings out there which can more or less rape you any time you cross their path. The best you can hope for is to give them a bit of hell and get away with your life.

There are much better boogymen in the world of Exalted than Sidereals. If Sidereals were intended as omnipotent ninja deathsquads they'd have written the Sidereals book about how to run omnipotent ninja death squads rather than writing the Sidereals book as being about special agents of fate who manipulate things with subtle hands and long term plans. Since the Bronze Faction in Exalted core, Sidereals, and any other combination of books existing have been described as looking out for Creation's best interests (in their minds), and not frothing fanatics at the cause of Bronze, we can assume they are not those people.


The High Essence Sidereals presumably have better things to do with their time than chasing down one of the 600+ Celestial Exalts running around Creation breaking everything.

And unfortunately, many of those beings are high-essence Sidereals. They live a long damn time, they're the Exalt type with the lowest turnover, meaning the average Siddie is most likely to not be a newbie at all. And they certainly don't play fair!

This is true. I see them not playing fair by sending one Sidereal, who stabotages Solar efforts, manipulates Solars into suicidal charges at the Wyld or the Deathlords, who shatters Solar business interests and murders Solar sympathisers and turn them against other enemies of the Bureau of Destiny. I don't see them playing unfair by saying bam you're dead.


Standard Sidereal practice should be to get two problems to 'solve' each other. Not to deal with the problem yourself. They're viziers.

It's not so much the fact that the GM thinks it's okay, as that the Sidereals prefer that sort of thing. It's kind of obligatory - eventually, if you go around Faegaming yourselves as the unstoppable heroes of your own story, you're going to attract enough attention to get a real Sidereal Hit Squad sent after you, and at that point... Well, the GM has two options. Play the Sidereals as if they actually are the dangerous bastards they've always been held to be, which involves a lot of sleepy-time assassinations, or play them up like retard babies with an incredible propaganda arm that makes them out to be dangerous rat-bastards.

The Sidereals do not prefer that thing. They are 100 in number, perhaps 60 of those bronze faction. There are 600 celestial exalts roaming Creation. If they have, say, 30 Elder Bronzies, they've formed 6 free roaming death squads. There are 600 celestial exalts. Do the math.


Like it says in the Sidereal astrology chapter, "The Sidereal is likely to slap a curse on Admiral Sand and point him in the general direction of something dangerous and turn to one of the other 500 plus celestial exalts running roughshod over fate."

While it's true that they're more likely to manipulate threats then confront them, at the same time, there's a point where threats need to be confronted. A Sidereal agent may plot and manipulate the party, but a reasonably savvy group can break through that. A savvy and paranoid group would probably cut through the manipulations, and make even bigger nuisances of themselves. A step or two down the line, and then sending out a well equipped and well prepared hit squad becomes a viable option. But as I said earlier, unless you've somehow managed to piss of Chejop personally, or seriously mess up the plans of a large group of Sidereals, such an attack just can't happen. A single non faction leader Sidereal, or even a small group of Sidereals, just don't have the political capital to order such a hit.

And if you do the latter, then a lot of Exalted loses it's bite. If you do the former, your players tend to need new characters in short order.

Exalted does not lose it's bite without death squads. Think about the other antagonists of the setting, the REAL antagonists of the setting. They're allready virtually unbeatable, without Sidereal help.

Sidereals are the undisputed masters of cheapness. They're the five-fingered discount. The Deathlords become green with envy for Sidereal Cheese - or worse, gloat because they still have the SMA cheese they had in life.
That's what Sidereals specialize in: attacking you on your weakest front whilst ensuring you may only retaliate on their strongest front. Some sidereals are manipulators and deviators - you never see them, but they're the bastards responsible for every single unit of whatever macguffin you desperately need being bought up and shipped away before you get there. They're the ones who tip the Wyld Hunt off and have Immaculate Monks hounding you twenty steps behind, all the while pretending to be someone dependant upon you or actually allied to you.

I agree Sidereals should attack when their foes are weakest. They're also smart. Why the hell would they waste time dealing with 600+ Solars directly? That's what they made the Wyld Hunt for. Maybe one Sidereal will ride along with a hunt as a sanctioned observer, and maybe that one Sidereal will lend aid if he feels he needs to. But they don't have the resources for death squads. And at the end of the day, what have they accomplished? Solars exalt, wander around, settle down, and build nations. It's the natural life cycle of a Solar. The Sidereals don't want to fight that war because then they're suddenly fighting the Primordial War - a few very old, powerful beings against infinitely respawning Solars. Either creation will die or they will lose. They don't want that.

But some are fighters. They're the ones who pop in and steal your plot token out of no-fricking-where, just because they can, and they subject the two baddest guys you've ever faced to a Worf Effect victimization to prove just how badass they are. They're the ones who show up on your doorstep in the middle of a blinding winter while you're in the outhouse, completely unprepared for combat, with a small army of mercenary OutCastes. They're the ones who try to assassinate you before you Exalt.

Sure, let's do the math. Of those 30 Elder Sidereals who are bronze faction, say 6 are battles and 6 are endings. That's 12 combat-favored Sidereals. Maybe another 8 are specialized enough in direct battle to go along. So now you've got 4 circles of Sidereals capable of hunting Celestials. And accidents will still happen.


Sidereals aren't dumb enough for that shit.

And some of them are assassins. Some of them creep through the night, taking down other Exalts when they're as vulnerable as any human - when they're sleeping. They study you to learn your weaknesses - if they know you have ITET, they won't use poison. If you have IPP, they won't use Shaping. If you have that charm that makes you immune to hazardous environments, they won't reroute a lava flow into your living room, and if you have a charm that makes you immune to crippling, they won't Cripple you.

Spending time studying a celestial exalt's weaknesses is time not spent managing the effects of the other 599 celestial exalts. Seriously, who has the time?

Or worse, they will. They'll throw a Crippling attack to make you put up your Crippling Immunity, then follow it up with a combo'd Shaping attack to punch your soul off while you can't throw IPP up. They'll do this in your sleep, too, to make you burn through your motes prodigiously whilst comboing SSE and SAM.

And what have they achieved?

Again, it's all a matter of degrees. If your party is just following the "Natural Solar life cycle," (hilarious wording, by the way,) then yeah, there are far more important things to spend resources on. An individual Sidereal might be inconvenienced, and they'll probably start throwing obstacles in your way, but it's probably easier for him to just manipulate some local faction into opposing you, then salvaging whatever is left of whatever they were doing, and going to do something else until the dust settles in the area, and they can reassess the situation.


On the other hand, if you are playing a story with Creation-shattering importance, that's when you're going to garner more attention. Then, it becomes worth it for the Sidereals as a whole to start paying attention to you, and if you manage to worry them enough, that's the point when Sidereal's become a bigger threat. But again, that's all part of the game. If you're playing a sandbox nation builder game, then a Sidereal in the area is just another headache to deal with; a major headache, sure, and one that's capable of creating even more problems, but still not enough to just bugger out. Play a Tolkien-esque epic, on the other hand, and the Sidereal's become a major wild card. Play your cards right, and you may get some assistance from the Gold faction, be careless, and face trouble from the Bronze faction.

Neither do I, but every setting needs it's boogey-men. The horrific, unstoppable monsters that it's PCs are afraid of, so that when you finally stop them, it's nigh-orgasmic.

There is something to this. I saw a Dragon Blooded ram a daiklave through a Sidereal's chest while she was monologuing. She failed her Duck Fate roll. She died.


Just like that the Bureau of Destiny was set back 780 years.


It was a good moment for the players. But it was also a good moment for proving why there are no death squads.


Edit: Also? My signature.


Edit Edit:


Your position is not unique; when I introduced my lady friend to Exalted, she instinctively hated Sidereals. She didn't know anything about them, but she hated them. She held this prejudice through several of her characters.


I ran a game; I played Sidereals how I imagined them to be; the careful, guiding hand behind the throne. The forgettable, ethereal manipulators. The people who'd create a fake man to be the perfect lover, and have him die heroically saving the Solar's life so that she'd swear eternal vengeance on the one who 'killed' him. Eventually she looked up and told me, "Somehow you've made me love Sidereals".


Thus I am reasonably committed to my NO DEATHSQUADS worldview. They're better than that. They're deeper than that.

As a friend put it to me, Sidereals are the wizards of Exalted; if they get the drop on you, they will totally fuck you up, if you get the drop on them, they're screwed. If a Sidereal is attacking you, and is obviously a Sidereal, and this is your first hint that the Sidereal are gunning for you, then yes, running as fast as possible is a good plan, because they wouldn't be facing you openly unless they were sure they could win. Otherwise, you should definitely be cautious, but you shouldn't just run away either.

 

[Jukashi]

I would just like to add that any possibility of Sidereal assassins can largely be avoided through the Vetinari method, i.e. make the consequences of your death more troublesome than you yourself are. Solars have a tendency to do heroic things - it's their default mode of existence. Even the Bronze Faction won't want rid of you if you're an effective impediment to the schemes of a Deathlord or the threat of a Fae invasion. Solars can be tools as well as targets.


And, of course, one must remember that Sidereals are still people. They manipulate, they can be ruthless, but manipulation and ruthlessness are things you employ towards a goal. If some Solar medic is curing hundreds every day in a plague-torn nation, it will be screwing with Fate and be doing damage to the Solars' reputation as Anathema, but if some Bronze Faction hardass pushes for a hit squad on him then he may find members of his own faction trying to stop him because they don't want to allow thousands of people to die.


That's another thing to remember. By the nature of the Sidereal Curse, they have trouble agreeing on anything.

 

[Thanqol]

Hence all these arguments about Sidereals. We players are as badly affected by the Sidereal curse as they are.

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

By the what? A curse? On who? I haven't any idea what you're talking about.


Damn Arcane Fate. Should have spent a Willpower or used an Excellency. Too late now...

 

[Thanqol]

By the what? A curse? On who? I haven't any idea what you're talking about.
Damn Arcane Fate. Should have spent a Willpower or used an Excellency. Too late now...

Sidereals roll extra limit dice when they congregate in large numbers. As a party Sidereal put it:


"Sidereals are the only sane Exalts. We're double special sane in large numbers."

 

[Aasharu]

I think it was best summed up in one of my favorite quotes: "Solars do horrible things, Lunars are horrible things, and Sidereals make horrible decisions."


By the by, shouldn't this tread be moved? It's not exactly comic related any more.

 

[ShadowDragon8685]

I think it was best summed up in one of my favorite quotes: "Solars do horrible things, Lunars are horrible things, and Sidereals make horrible decisions."
By the by, shouldn't this tread be moved? It's not exactly comic related any more.

I think it's entirely relevant, since it seems like my vision of the Sidereals has come to pass: She's there, and if you're smart, you'll book as fast as you're capable of printing, because she's quite literally here to steal your story.


It's... Well, you all make a lot of good points, but the fact remains...


Sidereals Find You. It's that simple. You can't stop them, short of hiding in the Wyld or in a Manse which is Beyond Fate. They can go anywhere they want, having access to portals and first-age magitech and sorcery and crap. They can track you and nothing you can do can stop them; at worst you can force them to go google the Loom. It's not like Celestial Exalts are hard to find - there's only about 450 non-Sidereals with Fates left, and performing a manual search throgh 450 hits is simple enough for even us mere mortals. Trivial for a Siddie.


And they're almost garunteed to be much, much higher essence than you. If they're not combat-spec, you'll never see them, but they will make your life a living misery. If they are combat spec, you'll just be obliterated and there's nothing you can do about it.


Like I said: treat them like Agents and you're not yet Neo. Run. Run your ass off. Go adventuring until you're essence 7+ before you think about taking on the Siddies.

 

[Aasharu]

I think it was best summed up in one of my favorite quotes: "Solars do horrible things, Lunars are horrible things, and Sidereals make horrible decisions."
By the by, shouldn't this tread be moved? It's not exactly comic related any more.

I think it's entirely relevant, since it seems like my vision of the Sidereals has come to pass: She's there, and if you're smart, you'll book as fast as you're capable of printing, because she's quite literally here to steal your story.


It's... Well, you all make a lot of good points, but the fact remains...


Sidereals Find You. It's that simple. You can't stop them, short of hiding in the Wyld or in a Manse which is Beyond Fate. They can go anywhere they want, having access to portals and first-age magitech and sorcery and crap. They can track you and nothing you can do can stop them; at worst you can force them to go google the Loom. It's not like Celestial Exalts are hard to find - there's only about 450 non-Sidereals with Fates left, and performing a manual search throgh 450 hits is simple enough for even us mere mortals. Trivial for a Siddie.


And they're almost garunteed to be much, much higher essence than you. If they're not combat-spec, you'll never see them, but they will make your life a living misery. If they are combat spec, you'll just be obliterated and there's nothing you can do about it.


Like I said: treat them like Agents and you're not yet Neo. Run. Run your ass off. Go adventuring until you're essence 7+ before you think about taking on the Siddies.

And I certainly see your point, and even agree with it, to an extent. If you are facing Sidereals in combat, and you're not expecting them, then you are in serious danger of getting your semi-divine head handed back to you. Taking even the most cursory glances through the Sidereal martial arts section of the Scroll of the Monk pretty much cements Sidereals as a major threat in combat. But what I'm saying is that they should almost never be used as such. The only time that you should face enough powerful Sidereals to make running your only option should be if you're majorly pissing off a number of very important people. Otherwise, you're just not worth the effort. Hell, to keep up the Matrix analogy, if you're still just a normal hacker, they aren't going to send out agents after you when they have to worry about Neo, or in this case, since it's Exalted, a few dozen different Neos.


Now, in regards to facing a single Sidereal, that's something different. In normal circumstances, you should never even be facing a single Sidereal in battle. It's just not how they operate, so if you are facing just one, there is something more going on. Now, there's always the chance said Sidereal is a Martial Arts Master, but again, as with facing a group, you wouldn't face such a foe unless you've been doing something obviously troublesome. Otherwise, given how Sidereals work, pretty much the only other reason you might face a single Sidereal is because of something political. If that's the case, then no matter how badass they are, (and the Keysiddie certainly is, else she wouldn't be a viable threat,) if you can figure out what their motivation is, you can probably neutralize the threat, without having to take them down. It all boils down to politics, in the end. If you're facing a hit squad, then that means a number of different politicians have banded together for a specific purpose, (killing you,) and are willing to burn political capital and set aside rivalries to achieve that purpose. If there's just one, though, then it's pretty much a given that they're running a much more delicate balancing act. They won't have nearly enough political pull to back up their actions, and their rivals are probably paying very close attention, just waiting for a slip up. Step too far out of bounds, break too many rules, and they'll be hung out to dry before you can say "Celestial Audit." If you can find out what strings are holding them back, then you don't have to fight them, which I think is the situation that's evolving here.

 

[ShadowDragon8685]

Most young Exalts in Creation won't have any pull in Heaven, though. I mean, it's one thing if you have several powerful, or influential, or even just far-heard Gods on your side (I like Talespinner for this, personally - nobody's going to have him taken out since he's so beloved by everybody, he gets around he can spread stories like, well, a weaver of tales,) then you can make sure that a Siddie who takes you out has reprecussions...


Of course, you've also got to be sure they're not willing to face reprecussions in order to take you out. There's gotta be at least one combat-spec Bronze who's a frothing zealot sufficient enough to be willing to risk some wrath coming his way in order to take you down.


I dunno. Even if it's not very reasonable for Sidereal Hit Squads to be popping up left, right and center, Exalted isn't a very reasonable setting. I can see the Bronze faction panicking that the Solars are back and out for vengeance (and let's face it: my Solars are out for vengeance!), and might decide it's better to dedicate two whole circles to tracking down and eradicating the Solar Exalted before they get too powerful - kind of an "oh shit we screwed the pooch, let's just keep killing them until we can figure out what else to do!" reaction.

 

[Aasharu]

I'm sorry, but that still just feels wrong to me. I mean, the Sidereals have the Lunars to worry about, they have the impending Realm civil war to worry about, they have the Fair Folk to worry about, and they definitely have the Deathlords to worry about. They don't know about the Infernals yet, but when they find out, that's going to be worrying as well. And while they do have the Solars to worry about, it's just part of a list of similarly major threats. And while you're right that the young Solars won't have pull in Heaven, a Sidereal's political rivals do. I look at it a lot like how politicians operate, actually. If they get involved in some sort of major scandal, then they're screwed.


And besides, even if you do wind up facing a frothing zealot, there are 149 other Solars in Creation. And if he's such a zealot, he's probably already been reined in for causing excessive issues. Sidereals are just too manipulative for them to be a random encounter, so to speak.


Again, hit squads shouldn't be showing up just because you've managed to bend a few kingdoms to your whim. A large part of the terror of such a squad, to me, is not just that they can kick your ass, it's that their very presence means you're now a major target, and that whoever is gunning for you isn't going to just stop, even if you get away. That way, it manages to even make escaping from such an encounter a worrying experience. "Now that that's failed, what are they going to throw at us next?" Using them the way you describe, as the roving boogyman, just seems to dilute the terror, to a degree. Just like how you shouldn't find N/A artifacts unless it's crucial to whatever story arc is going on, so to should hit squads be reserved for monumental occurrences.

 

[ShadowDragon8685]

I'm not saying it's something you should throw at your players, mind, but something that's happening and worrisome. Creation is huge, and there's not a lot of Sidereals, but let's face it: of all the threats to the Sidereals right now, the Solars are the largest - not because they can destroy Creation (though they probably could if they wanted to,) but because they are it's rightful inheritors. Inheritors who will be justifiably furious about the Usurpation.


Hence, I think, it should be known 'in the circles in which this kind of news travels' that lone Solars tend to befall horrible, horrible deaths stemming from Fate Ninja related complications.* But they should never, ever see one unless it's a Big Damn Deal. Hopefully by this time, the Sidereals have amassed such a reputation of terror that even if your players are capable of utterly face-melting them, they'll massively overestimate the Siddies' actual capabilities.


It also makes a single Sidereal that much scarier when and if they show up.


*Also has the benefit of being the implied threat of "if you leave the circle, the Sidereals will get you." I really hate splitting the party.

 

[Thanqol]

Uh, Sidereals can't get reputations. Arcane Fate. They're bad bogeymen because everyone forgets they ever existed or that they're supposed to be afraid of them.


Your position seems to be "Well... there are lots of reasons for there to not be death squads... but there should be death squads anyway". And you know what? That's fine. Your Creation you think the Bronzies have the resources to spare to have two full circles of Elders taking out hits sure.


But those two circles will kill maybe one Solar a month each. Longer if they plan the kill to get it right. THERE ARE 150 SOLARS. The Bronze Faction gets committed to this war, they will LOSE. Because they're fighting the Primordial War. A few very old, godlike entities fighting an infinitely recurring source of divine superweapons has a canonical ending in Exalted, and it ends with the Bronze Faction stitched up into a hideous flesh sculpture of insanity and agony and put outside the front gates of the Imperial Manse as a warning to others.


They need a better plan than that. And they're smart enough to realize that.

 

[Persell]

Go adventuring until you're essence 7+ before you think about taking on the Siddies.

This kinda breaks one of the fundamental assumptions of the setting, that a Circle of Essence 4-5 Solars should be able to take on and walk away from anything. If that Circle can beat the stuffing out of Mask of Winters, they can certainly handle a few Sidereals.


Granted, at starting Essence levels if you jump your players and dogpile Elder Sidereals on them they'll die, but at starting Essence its much more likely that the Bronze Faction will just point a Wyld Hunt at them, or at best one combat focused Siddy might lead said Wyld Hunt. A group of Essence 5 or better Sidereals falling out of the sky to kill your players? Doesn't seem reasonable (or very fun from a player's point of view).


Obviously YMMV

 

[ShadowDragon8685]

Uh, Sidereals can't get reputations. Arcane Fate. They're bad bogeymen because everyone forgets they ever existed or that they're supposed to be afraid of them.

Gods can remember them, and I tend to pretty much ignore the Arcane Fate as it applies to Celestial Exalts. Everyone else, fine, but telling players their characters can't remember something they (the players) damn well do remember is an asshole move in D&D, let alone when your characters are the Solar Freaking Exalted.

Your position seems to be "Well... there are lots of reasons for there to not be death squads... but there should be death squads anyway". And you know what? That's fine. Your Creation you think the Bronzies have the resources to spare to have two full circles of Elders taking out hits sure.
But those two circles will kill maybe one Solar a month each. Longer if they plan the kill to get it right. THERE ARE 150 SOLARS. The Bronze Faction gets committed to this war, they will LOSE. Because they're fighting the Primordial War. A few very old, godlike entities fighting an infinitely recurring source of divine superweapons has a canonical ending in Exalted, and it ends with the Bronze Faction stitched up into a hideous flesh sculpture of insanity and agony and put outside the front gates of the Imperial Manse as a warning to others.


They need a better plan than that. And they're smart enough to realize that.

That is, effectively, my position. I'm strangely Pro-Death Squad. It makes no sense to me that the guys who wrecked the world in order to kill them last time wouldn't be doing everything in their power to prevent the Solars from returning to Power. And as I said: my theory is that they don't go after circles, since they're so damn hard - so they spend their time trying to prevent the lone guy from building an army. I also go with the precept that their stance on dealing with the Solar Exalted involves either midnight assassinations if there's no indication the guy in question has SAM+SSE combo'd, or an overwhelming assault with Starmetal Royal Warstriders and the most broken imaginable SMA cheese, up to and including using Draw Forth One Shard to dupe the entire attack team before the assault happens.


But then, I also tend to imagine Sidereals as having mobility unimaginable to anyone on Creation, and having the magitechnical communications infrastructure that they can continue to handle most of their normal duties - or at least stem the tide at which they pile up - while on the road hunting. Magical BlackBerries and Laptops and stuff like that.


@Captain Indigo: That may be an assumption of the setting, but the stats don't bear it out. SMA is broken, pure and simple. A circle of E4-5 Solars would certainly be able to take on a Sidereal SMA master and walk away with few casualties.


Which is why they'll never face a SMA master, they'll face five of them.


Also, please re-read Ligier's entry. In the height of the First Age, a full circle of high-essence (7-9) Solars attacked him in an attempt to wrest the Sword of the Yozis from him. Twenty minutes later, Lytek's cabinet is going "Bum! Ba-dum pa pum! Solar Inside!"

 

[Jukashi]

Which is why they'll never face a SMA master, they'll face five of them.

But Elder Sidereals specifically can't work together well, because of the Great Curse. Since we're talking SMA masters, that puts them at at least Essence 7 or so, and if you put five of those together at a dinner table, they'll end up shifting chairs and cutlery to one-up each other and argue over whether soup is a starter or its own course.


Against a Solar? Each one will have their own ideas on why it's critically important to kill him at a different particular time or location using a particular method, and each will be stupefied that the other four could be so stupid to think anything else is the right way to do it.

 

[ShadowDragon8685]

Which is why they'll never face a SMA master, they'll face five of them.

But Elder Sidereals specifically can't work together well, because of the Great Curse. Since we're talking SMA masters, that puts them at at least Essence 7 or so, and if you put five of those together at a dinner table, they'll end up shifting chairs and cutlery to one-up each other and argue over whether soup is a starter or its own course.


Against a Solar? Each one will have their own ideas on why it's critically important to kill him at a different particular time or location using a particular method, and each will be stupefied that the other four could be so stupid to think anything else is the right way to do it.

They don't have to work together well, they just have to be told "This Solar is getting too strong. Take him out, at this time and at this date. <X> is in charge of the team, whatever he says, goes, just get it done."


Remember, they pulled off the Usurpation, and that required every last one of them to work together, at least well enough for every single one of them to not go straight to Queen Merela or someone and say "holy shit, they're going to whack you all!"


And we've also seen evidence that 9 elders worked together just fine in a hit squad - remember the Solar Queen of the city which became known as Whitewall? They literally could not find any way to convince the Terrestrials to attack her, they resorted to an out-and-out death squad strike to remove her and her Lunar mate. Nine combat-spec Sidereals teamed up to take them out. Only three of them walked away, but they pulled it off.

 

[danelsan]

Also, please re-read Ligier's entry. In the height of the First Age, a full circle of high-essence (7-9) Solars attacked him in an attempt to wrest the Sword of the Yozis from him. Twenty minutes later, Lytek's cabinet is going "Bum! Ba-dum pa pum! Solar Inside!"

I disagree with a lot of what you wrote, but this passage in particular has you asking someone to re-read text where some of the things you claim just aren't there. It is your interpretation of that passage. The relevant part of the writeup for Ligier:

[QUOTE="RoGD 2 - G&D]Legend claims that seven Solars died trying to seize this blade from Ligier, and he is proud of his creation. Indeed, it is said that he considers anything less than an entire circle of experienced Solars or a small army of heavily armed Dragon-Blooded less than a challenge for the sword

[/QUOTE]
First: the text does not say the Solars were a circle (unlikely with 7 of them anyway). They could very well each have fought Ligier and died on their own, without any circlemates


Second: Essence 7-9? That's not in the text either. Who is to say that "experienced Solars" is essence 7-9? it may well be 4-5


Third: It was in the height of the first age? Possible (even likely, I'll give you that) but not necessarily fact, as it is not in the text.


Then, perhaps more importantly fourth: legend claims this happened. "Indeed it is said..." even Ligier's supposed opinion of what constitutes a challenge is not stated as fact in the text, just something people say. Hardly proof that a circle of Essence 5 Solars couldn't own Ligier's green ass.

 

[ShadowDragon8685]

All right, I'll grant you that. I misremembered based on my own interpretation of that text - none of which is actually disabused, however - Reinforced Circle is entirely possible if you're doing something like trying to wrest the king of hell's sword from him.


The rest is conjecture, on both of our parts. My interpretation of that was that at one memorable time during the high first age, a bunch of Solars got together and said "hey, let's go kill Ligier and take his sword," and they got totally fucking pwned for their trouble.

 

[Aasharu]

It was likely a really big, really flashy fight, and while the Solars probably weren't just instagibd, they certainly lost, and now Liger gets to brag that he took on seven elder Solars and emerged on top. Which, you know, is definitely something to brag about. The book wouldn't have mentioned the Solars if the event wasn't monumental in some way, and seven elder Solars are certainly a threat, even to a Demon Prince.


Back to the original topic, in regards to your comparison to the Usurpation, there are two major flaws to your thinking. Firstly, there's the fact that, still and yet, there are major political considerations. I mean, to actually pull the Usurpation off, they had to assault Lytek, steal the Solar essences, then break a constellation to hide their guilt. The gods are immortal, so they all remember this. There is likely a major bloc of gods, Lytek chief among them, who are still holding a grudge about that. If the Sidereals start getting too fanatical about their Solar hunting, a lot of gods are going to start wondering if the Sidereals are going to try something like that again, and will strike back accordingly. Heck, one of the reasons the Solar return is so worrisome to a lot of Sidereals is that it's reminding a lot of gods about the Usurpation, and their revived suspicion is definitely making the Sidereal's jobs harder. Secondly, remember that during the Usurpation, yes, you're right, all the Sidereals worked together, but now, there's a large minority that belong to the Gold faction, and will oppose any actions to try and take down nascent Solars. And while the Gold faction may not have as much pull as the Bronze faction, they certainly have enough to quash any kind of attempt to organize a hit squad in all but the most serious cases. The fact that the Bull of the North is still alive is pretty much proof of that.


Oh, and thirdly, (just thought of this,) unlike the Usurpation, all of the Solars are still young and relatively weak. And while some Sidereals are probably arguing that they need to take out the Solars while they remain weak, a number of others are likely wondering if they can use their relative naivety to manipulate them into achieving the Sidereal's ends. That's basically what the entire Gold faction is all about, after all. So while it's likely that a given Sidereal is investigating you in order to figure out the best way to kill you off, it's also possible that they're investigating you to find the best way to put you in power, with themselves as the power behind the throne, so to speak.

 

[ShadowDragon8685]

It was likely a really big, really flashy fight, and while the Solars probably weren't just instagibd, they certainly lost, and now Liger gets to brag that he took on seven elder Solars and emerged on top. Which, you know, is definitely something to brag about. The book wouldn't have mentioned the Solars if the event wasn't monumental in some way, and seven elder Solars are certainly a threat, even to a Demon Prince.

Oh yes, they almost certainly forced him into his third and final form before he achieved victory.

Back to the original topic, in regards to your comparison to the Usurpation, there are two major flaws to your thinking. Firstly, there's the fact that, still and yet, there are major political considerations. I mean, to actually pull the Usurpation off, they had to assault Lytek, steal the Solar essences, then break a constellation to hide their guilt. The gods are immortal, so they all remember this. There is likely a major bloc of gods, Lytek chief among them, who are still holding a grudge about that. If the Sidereals start getting too fanatical about their Solar hunting, a lot of gods are going to start wondering if the Sidereals are going to try something like that again, and will strike back accordingly. Heck, one of the reasons the Solar return is so worrisome to a lot of Sidereals is that it's reminding a lot of gods about the Usurpation, and their revived suspicion is definitely making the Sidereal's jobs harder. Secondly, remember that during the Usurpation, yes, you're right, all the Sidereals worked together, but now, there's a large minority that belong to the Gold faction, and will oppose any actions to try and take down nascent Solars. And while the Gold faction may not have as much pull as the Bronze faction, they certainly have enough to quash any kind of attempt to organize a hit squad in all but the most serious cases. The fact that the Bull of the North is still alive is pretty much proof of that.

You can also say that the Bull is still alive because he's part of a circle strong enough that they don't think they can kill them without taking casualties, which are unacceptable. That's the way I look at it: They won't strike until (1) they're sure they can take you down with zero casualties, or (2) desperate enough to consider Sidereal casualties an acceptable loss to take you down.

Oh, and thirdly, (just thought of this,) unlike the Usurpation, all of the Solars are still young and relatively weak. And while some Sidereals are probably arguing that they need to take out the Solars while they remain weak, a number of others are likely wondering if they can use their relative naivety to manipulate them into achieving the Sidereal's ends. That's basically what the entire Gold faction is all about, after all. So while it's likely that a given Sidereal is investigating you in order to figure out the best way to kill you off, it's also possible that they're investigating you to find the best way to put you in power, with themselves as the power behind the throne, so to speak.

Oh, that's certainly true...


However, both are, in my opinion, justifiable cause for Booking It to another Direction.

 

[Thanqol]

And we've also seen evidence that 9 elders worked together just fine in a hit squad - remember the Solar Queen of the city which became known as Whitewall? They literally could not find any way to convince the Terrestrials to attack her, they resorted to an out-and-out death squad strike to remove her and her Lunar mate. Nine combat-spec Sidereals teamed up to take them out. Only three of them walked away, but they pulled it off.

See, this is my point exactly. Losing 6 Elder Sidereals sets the Bureau of Destiny back SIX THOUSAND YEARS of training time and experience, at very least. And how long were Solars set back? Like, a month? A year? As long as there are people, Solars will be turning those people into their kingdoms. You can Soulbreaker Orb an entire nation and kill every Solar cultist there is, but next week, they'll be back.


Death Squads are for the people who are actively working against the Bureau of Destiny, say by hunting down Sidereals, planning a war in Heaven, summoning Third Circle Demons and setting them to 'rape'. Not for Solars who happen to own kingdoms.

 

[ShadowDragon8685]

And we've also seen evidence that 9 elders worked together just fine in a hit squad - remember the Solar Queen of the city which became known as Whitewall? They literally could not find any way to convince the Terrestrials to attack her, they resorted to an out-and-out death squad strike to remove her and her Lunar mate. Nine combat-spec Sidereals teamed up to take them out. Only three of them walked away, but they pulled it off.

See, this is my point exactly. Losing 6 Elder Sidereals sets the Bureau of Destiny back SIX THOUSAND YEARS of training time and experience, at very least. And how long were Solars set back? Like, a month? A year? As long as there are people, Solars will be turning those people into their kingdoms. You can Soulbreaker Orb an entire nation and kill every Solar cultist there is, but next week, they'll be back.


Death Squads are for the people who are actively working against the Bureau of Destiny, say by hunting down Sidereals, planning a war in Heaven, summoning Third Circle Demons and setting them to 'rape'. Not for Solars who happen to own kingdoms.

The Solars were set back for the duration of the entire time between the start of the Age of Sorrow and the shattering of the Jade Prison, but that's neither here nor there.


That was an Elder Solar and her Lunar Mate. A callow youth of a Solar would be much easier to kill.

 

[Aquillion]

The Solars were set back for the duration of the entire time between the start of the Age of Sorrow and the shattering of the Jade Prison, but that's neither here nor there.
That was an Elder Solar and her Lunar Mate. A callow youth of a Solar would be much easier to kill.

Yeah. But the point is: Right now, the Sidereals have only one advantage over all the threats facing Creation -- they have the most Elders.
And by 'most', I don't mean a huge number. They lost people in the Contagion and the Balorian Crusade. They are unable to extend their livespan by any means, so they lost many to old age. There are about 100 Sidereals total. Of these, ~30 are Gold Faction, and let's say 10-15 are unaligned... and a few more are not currently incarnated or trained. That leaves, say, about 50 Gold Faction Sidereals. Of those, they have, what, fifteen, twenty Elders? Sure, it sounds like a lot.


Now, there are a total of 600 other Celestials, most of whom the Gold Faction Sidereals want dead -- and some of those are Elder Lunars. Some are also Deathlords. An Elder who slips up and runs into one of those in unfavorable circumstances will die. More importantly, the Elders are needed to counter those. If the Sidereals lose too many Elders, the Lunars will swarm over them by weight of numbers and start killing them all.


Also, those Elders are the Bronze Faction's trump card against the Gold Faction. They have to work hard, and constantly, to keep the Gold Faction from convincing too many people in Heaven to support the Solars. They also have to work hard to keep the Realm from falling into civil war -- Dragon Bloods are also Exalts, and manipulating such large numbers of them does take some work.


But sure, one of those Elders could still take a day off to kill an individual Solar. So let's say he does. He's probably going to win, sure. But it's not certain. Solars are dangerous. A starting Solar can very quickly get a paranoia combo. They can very quickly find equally-dangerous friends. Avoidance Kata only works for the first two actions of a fight... Sidereals have no mote-pool expander and have to commit most of their motes to persistent effects to fight. If you commit them wrong, the Solar you're trying to kill isn't going to give you a chance to change -- you're likely to die. Quickly. And the Sidereals cannot afford to have an Elder die. If too many Elders die, what advantage, exactly, do they have?


But let's say he wins. He kills a Solar... and the shard promptly reincarnates in a new host. Woo. Well, so what? What has he accomplished? He's risked one of the Sidereal's most important advantages, something they absolutely cannot afford to risk... to gain, at most, five years, since that's how long the Solar they killed was likely alive anyway. Solars reincarnate faster than Sidereals (it takes twenty years for a Sidereal shard to recycle, since it bonds to your destiny at birth.) Solars learn faster than Sidereals. And that's not even considering the Lunars that outnumber Sidereals 3-to-1 and are far more deadly shortly after Exaltation, compared to Sidereals who really have to master a whole tree or reach SMA to be particularly nasty.


If the Sidereals lose their entrenched advantage in elders, they are finished. Period. If the Solars lose a few Solars... well, so what? The Sidereals don't gain anything from hunting Solars piecemeal. They need a system to deal with all the Solars. Even the Wyld Hunt at the height of the Realm's effectiveness wouldn't cut it anymore -- that was for ~17 Solars, not 150 Solars and 100 Abyssals and 50 Infernals. The only plan they had for that kind of numbers was the Jade Prison, and that's not something they can repeat.


So, yeah, the Sidereals could gank young Solars themselves if they wanted to grief. But it wouldn't help their long-term goals -- eventually, something will go wrong, and they'll lose Elders, or a Solar will slip through the cracks. Once they've lost enough Elders or enough Solars have slipped through the cracks, they're screwed. (And that's not even getting into the Abyssals / Infernals, who can just sit in their homes and make artifacts and raise their Essence to 10 and then lead a huge army of undead / demons in to crush everything...)