[OOC Thread] [The Resurgent]

[kaliket]

Why would one choose one Ability/Attribute Excellency over another?

 

[Tikor]

I was hoping you'd elaborate, kaliket.


And Rillard, do you need help with something? I see you've logged on since it was your turn but didn't post.

 

[kaliket]

Restated: What's the functional difference between 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Excellencies and what kinds of characters choose each?


For example, Balthazar has First Excellencies for Presence, Investigation, and Sail. My reasoning was that extra dice are better for weaker skills. Had I chosen the 3rd Sail Excellency, how would I play my character differently?

 

[Tikor]

Here are the things to consider for rolls:


1) The First and Second are variable mote expenditures


The Third Excellency is a static mote expenditure


2) The First and Second demand mote expenditure and Charm slot committment on Steps 1 and 2 of Combat resolution (before the roll)


The Third Excellency allows you to wait to see the result of the roll before mote and Charm slot expenditure (Steps 4 and 6)


3) The First gives dice which increase the mean, median, maximum and variance of your roll results


The Seconds gives sucesses which increase the mean, median, minimum, maximum, but not the variance of your roll results


The Third gives a reroll which increases the mean and median, but reduces the varience of your roll results.


4) The First Excellency costs 2m/success on average


The Second Excellency costs 2m/success always


The Third Excellency's mote/success value is dependent on how many dice you are throwing and if you're a DB/Sidereal or not.


Here are the things to consider for static values:


1) The First adds to the pool (and can take advantage of rounding) - (this is a housrule, canon Exalted you actually roll First Excellency for static values - I'm open to either)


The Second adds to the static value directly


The Third adds to static value directly


2) Some Lunar specific stuff actually increasing your Attributes for an instant, most notably doubling your Appearance for a single attack and using a Charm of theirs to increase the MDV modifier via Appearance to +/-6.


I leave it up to you how to consider them.

 

[Kalarix]

Have a draft and meaning to post soon, I'm still at work writing this...

 

[Tikor]

Thanks for the update. I thought you were probably working on it.

 

[Tikor]

You might get a kick out of this, Noisy Cricket:


http://exalted.xi.co.nz/wiki/wiki.pl?CharmRelay

 

[NoisyCricket]

You might get a kick out of this, Noisy Cricket:
http://exalted.xi.co.nz/wiki/wiki.pl?CharmRelay

I'm a fan of that solar charm...and the Sidereal one. The DB one is amusing, and is like a weaker CNNT.


I'm not totally sure of what all I could do with the Solar one, but I'm interested in learning (even if it were watered down to provide static benefits).

 

[NoisyCricket]

Restated: What's the functional difference between 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Excellencies and what kinds of characters choose each?
For example, Balthazar has First Excellencies for Presence, Investigation, and Sail. My reasoning was that extra dice are better for weaker skills. Had I chosen the 3rd Sail Excellency, how would I play my character differently?

I feel like I should point out a few things here, beyond what Tikor mentioned:


1. The first Excellency can theoretically give you the most successes.


Assuming a Solar with the first excellency, and 5 in attribute and ability, you can theoretically get 40 successes (2 per 20 dice)


2nd excellency can only give you 25 (2 per 10 dice, and 5 bought successes).


2. I personally prefer having the 1st excellency for times when I plan on needing all of my motes, and when variable successes will be important. Combat is probably the biggest example.


I prefer the 2nd excellency for when I can afford to blow motes and then recover them. For example, Kantan, my other character for a different game, has the 2nd Linguistics excellency, as he writes things privately, and recovers motes before going out into the world. He has the 1st Martial Arts and Melee excellencies because every mote counts in combat.


3. If I could, I would buy the 3rd excellency for every non-combat ability in the game, why? At some point, you're going to roll something you think should be easy, and fail. Having the 3rd excellency can save you from these moments.


4. Something that no one has mentioned is botches. I love the 2nd excellency for those. Keep in mind, when you buy even 1 success with the 2nd excellency, you cannot botch...and botches sometimes suck in horrible and amazing ways.


I think that's it from my personal views.

 

[NoisyCricket]

Here are the things to consider for static values:


1) The First adds to the pool (and can take advantage of rounding) - (this is a housrule, canon Exalted you actually roll First Excellency for static values - I'm open to either)


The Second adds to the static value directly


The Third adds to static value directly

I have a slight concern with this houserule that I hadn't thought about until I read this:


This makes it always better or equal to use the 1st excellency versus the 2nd for increasing static values (at least as a Solar).


In the normal rules, it can be more efficient to use the 1st excellency, but there is risk.


In these rules, you will always at least match the 2nd excellency in mote efficiency, but if the pool before division is odd, you will be saving a mote for the same effect. You noted that here, but I'm not sure I like that.


Thoughts?

 

[Tikor]

1. The first Excellency can theoretically give you the most successes.

I mentioned the First increases the maximum, which says this more succinctly.

4. Something that no one has mentioned is botches.

I mentioned the Second increases the minimum, which says this more succinctly.

 

[Tikor]

This makes it always better or equal to use the 1st excellency versus the 2nd for increasing static values (at least as a Solar).
...


Thoughts?

The benefit of this inferiority with regards to DV for Lunars, Solars, gods and mortals is speeding up play. For DBs this just adds to the awesome of their First over their Second. For Sidereals the Second is still better due to the cap.


Like I said, if you guys have a strong opinion one way or the other, we can throw the die roll in (I can even make such rolls be performed on Step 2 so that it doesn't slow down pbp play). It's really more of a F2F rule.


Solars rarely use an Excellency for DV due to their cheap perfect defenses. Lunar Excellencies are so broad DVs are a minor consideration, and the Third is better at DVs anyway. Gods and mortals are the most effected.

 

[Tikor]

Really, it's a consiracy by Plentimon of the Dice to discourage offensive use of the Second Excellency.

 

[NoisyCricket]

1. The first Excellency can theoretically give you the most successes.

I mentioned the First increases the maximum, which says this more succinctly.

4. Something that no one has mentioned is botches.

I mentioned the Second increases the minimum, which says this more succinctly.

You said it more succinctly both times, but you missed details which, I felt, were fairly important.


First, you mentioned that the 1st and 2nd both increased the maximum. You did not mention that the 1st increases the maximum by potentially 15 more than the 2nd.


Second, while you did mention the minimum for the 2nd excellency, I still feel like pointing out the benefits of not botching are worth their own section (which is why I gave it that way).


Botches can be not only fatal, but incredibly misleading. As an example...


Say you were climbing a mountain, and reached the top of it. On the top, there's a small shrine to the god of the mountain. Let's say, for the sake of argument (>.>) that you were a Zenith caste who was great at moving speeches, but not so great at Occult. The Storyteller asks everyone to make a roll of Intelligenc + Occult.


Let's say you botch, and the Storyteller, grinning wickedly, informs you that this mountain was clearly not honoring the Unconquered Sun, and should be destroyed.


While two other party members didn't, you beat them in social combat initiative, and give an amazing speech, while driving your daiklave into the shrine, tearing it asunder.


At this point...the mountain shakes, and you proceed to be chased down the mountain, by a boulder, clutching small children (whom you were escorting) and being sworn at by the Twilight and the Lunar in your party (the ones who knew that the Mountain wasn't so bad).


My point is, preventing a botch is more than just not succeeding, it's anti-success, and should be avoided like the plague...

 

[Kalarix]

Really sorry for the delay guys, particularly after asking to speed it up :-p


I had a couple of 60 hour work weeks in there and busy weekends as well as taxes to handle


Anyway, post is up now. Managed to eat my first draft so I rewrote it, not quite as good as what I remember, but there it is :-p

 

[kaliket]

A question on consquences:


What Rillard has just proposed is very nearly what Balthazar was about to propose. I'm inclined to declare "No Defense." However, the plan doesn't contain all the elements he'd like to see. If I elect to not defend(or fail to) do I forfeit my ability to refine the plan?

 

[Kalarix]

Cool!

 

[Tikor]

If I elect to not defend(or fail to) do I forfeit my ability to refine the plan?

Short version: Kalarix is not throwing the compulsion "Don't make any Social attacks refining this plan" so you can make Social attacks refining this plan even if you declare no defense. Your defense determines whether you are conviced to follow this plan or not which is a different matter.


Long version:


The way I see it:


1) You can declare no defense then try to modify the plan later, but you'd still go along with the plan if your modifications are refused. Kind of like congress, you may want the bill changed here and there, but you'll sign it even if you don't get your way because you like the bill on the whole.


2) You can declare MDV, then stipulate what would bypass your MDV (your modifications to the plan) as a step 2 stunt. You won't go along with the plan unless you get your way. To keep the congress example, you could take or leave the bill - you won't sign unless your modifications are made or someone convinces you of the bill's existing merits (beats your MDV). You are not currently convinced this is a good plan and if your defense succeeds you remain unconvinced.


Mechanically it's binary - defense succeeds or defense fails by whatever means - and you make the fluff up yourself. The above is what makes the most sense to me fluffwise.

 

[Kalarix]

"Yes, yes!"
Balthazar smiles broadly and slaps the table.

I could imagine your character doing this, nice roleplay!

 

[Kalarix]

I will not accept a plan that sacrifices Gateway or its people in any way

...sacrifices Gateway? In response to me?

 

[kaliket]

Thanks! I had fun envisioning that scene.


Balthazar wants to make clear that Gateway and its citizens are to be preserved. Its not a slight against Rillard.

 

[Tikor]

Balthazar wants to make clear that Gateway and its citizens are to be preserved. Its not a slight against Rillard.

To Rillard: Balthazar is a known figure in the WTA. If Anathema escape on a WTA ship even with resistance from Petrin, that could bode poorly for Gateway, the WTA's main port in a number of ways.

 

[Kalarix]

Ooooh, right.

 

[Tikor]

I promise there will be Exalted Social-Combat fu calculations tonight and the tick will be iterated. Gytherial's sheet isn't on Gdocs (which I will fix) so I need to be home to do this.

 

[Wyuli]

Hai gaize, what's goin' on in this thread?