[Nightmares of the Second Age] The Daily Scribe

JayTee said:
Technically I have Fist of the Daystar and not Solar Hero Style, but yes, that's what I'm gunning for :D
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I've been wondering why you did that since I first saw Tiger's sheet. SHS ala 2.5 is amazing, why did you decide to use this fix instead?
 
The enhancements are terrible. Heaven Thunder Hammer or Crashing Wave Throw + the form effect let you throw around Perfect Or Die effects pretty much at will, and the other charms don't get enough of a boost to enable a pure unarmed build.


It still has that godawful charm structure. I don't have much interest in clinching, but I'm forced to buy clinching charms if I want to develop the style.


Fist of the Daystar lets you pick your style (wrestling or boxing), as well as offer a solid boost to your unarmed damage output that's on par with Solar Melee.
 
JayTee said:
The enhancements are terrible. Heaven Thunder Hammer or Crashing Wave Throw + the form effect let you throw around Perfect Or Die effects pretty much at will, and the other charms don't get enough of a boost to enable a pure unarmed build.
It still has that godawful charm structure. I don't have much interest in clinching, but I'm forced to buy clinching charms if I want to develop the style.


Fist of the Daystar lets you pick your style (wrestling or boxing), as well as offer a solid boost to your unarmed damage output that's on par with Solar Melee.
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So basically, you don't like clinching, and some enhancements are too OP for you're liking (just in Charms you don't like)?


Honestly, that seems like a paper-thin argument to me - especially when you consider how ridiculously overpowered FotD Form is by comparison to SHS form. FotD still requires you to take Dragon Coil Technique, Crashing Wave Throw, and all of that jazz. I don't know where you're getting the idea that it lets you ignore clinching Charms, because it clearly doesn't if your goal is to reach the pinnacle Charm. Thunderclap Rush Attack as written for FotD is cool, but also quite ridiculously powerful - especially when one considers the cost and suggested power of Speed-reducing effects elsewhere in the game.


That said, there are some things in FotD I do like - particularly in the Expansion Charms. The FotD version of Orichalcum Fists of Battle, while certainly much less powerful (understandably so given the lesser Essence minima), is a far more interesting. It is probably mildly overpowered for Essence 3; I think somewhere between Essence 4 and 5 better fits the fact that it effectively provides a free version of Enemy-Castigating Solar Judgement (which also has an Essence minima of 3) on a Scenelong 3m Charm that becomes permanent and costless at Essence 5.


FotD's version of Lightning Strikes Twice is admittedly more elegant than the Ink Monkey version. While I initially balked at the 1m cost for the free reflexive attack, after realizing how they changed it and its enhancing Charm, Split the Chase, up, I realized how much more I liked it. Lightning Strikes Twice, as written by the Ink Monkeys, is awesome, but a bit absurd and crappy if all you want is a quick attack to follow up the initial attack. Making the unexpected part of it an additional cost (via Split the Chase) is a much better way of managing the Charm than making it all part of the initial Charm and using the upgrade to manipulate the Charm resetting (which no longer matters, given the changes to Combo rules).
 
I value game balance. The two close combat styles for Solars should be on par with each other. The Perfect Or Die result of Solar Hero Style is displeasing to me.


For a Solar, the Pre-req for Fist of the Daystar Form is Fist of Iron. It says so in the hero enhancement.


Likewise, the Pre-req for Heaven Thunder Hammer is Sledgehammer Fist Punch. If you're a Solar.


Fist of the Daystar Form is more powerful, but it's also Step 1, as opposed to step 7, so you wont be sure if your attack connects or not. It seems to even out to me. The ability to use more than one MA form at E5+ is kinda neat, I guess, but wont really get me much as most Celestial Charms are much less powerful than Solar Charms.


Orichalcum Fists of Battle is also less flexible than Enemy Castigating Solar Judgement. The former only applies to martial arts attacks, the latter applies to anything. It seems to even out to me.


Fist of the Daystar Thunderclap Rush Attack only reduces the speed to 4 for one scene (or indefinitely at E5+, which is a hefty investment of XP), Solar Hero Style lets you reduce the speed to 3 by spending 1 mote. It seems to even out to me.


No comment on the Lightning Strikes Twice branch. It looks interesting, but it's not on my "To Buy" list yet.
 
JayTee said:
IFist of the Daystar Form is more powerful, but it's also Step 1, as opposed to step 7, so you wont be sure if your attack connects or not. It seems to even out to me. The ability to use more than one MA form at E5+ is kinda neat, I guess, but wont really get me much as most Celestial Charms are much less powerful than Solar Charms.
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But that's the big stickler here: This is a CMA (let alone one that can be learned without a teacher by Solars whatsoever), utilizing an effect you don't see anywhere outside of SMA. That is a MASSIVE leap in power. One of the cool, fluffy limiting factors in the Exalted Martial Arts system is the one active form limit. SMA, by nature, is the only canonical manner in which you're normally allowed to break limits like this because SMA is all about transcending limitations/boundaries. CMA, on the other hand, is just about being supernaturally awesome. The fact that you can dynamically shift into the form as a reflexive action under certain conditions makes it absolutely ridiculous.

Orichalcum Fists of Battle is also less flexible than Enemy Castigating Solar Judgement. The former only applies to martial arts attacks, the latter applies to anything. It seems to even out to me.
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Meh. Applicability is a minute adjustment in power in comparison to duration. If it was action-long, it would be one thing. This is on a scenelong Charm - that's quite significant, especially considering the costs (2m for ECSJ, 3m for FoIT).

Fist of the Daystar Thunderclap Rush Attack only reduces the speed to 4 for one scene (or indefinitely at E5+, which is a hefty investment of XP), Solar Hero Style lets you reduce the speed to 3 by spending 1 mote. It seems to even out to me.
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It comes back to Duration, once again. FotD TRA is Scenelong for Speed 4, one Action-long for Speed 3. TRA via SHS is instantaneous. I can think of very little Speed reduction Charms native to Celestials that last longer than an instant and provide more than a -1 benefit to Speed, if that at all.


The most important thing to consider about Charm balance is context. What gets me about FotD is it completely throws context out the window in some situations, which is bad building. Yes, I agree that Perfect or Die is bad construction, but this really requires Essence 4 for HTH. As you mentioned with FotD TRA, higher Essence requires XP investment. Additionally, the "rooted" effect of the HTH enhancement has three important caveats:


1) An enemy affected has already been struck so that they're forced into terrain, most likely by an initial HTH hit


2) The SH Stylist has closed the distance between the two after forcing the target into the terrain, or prevented them from moving somehow (eg Shadow Foot Trap)


3) The target has no means of escaping the terrain before the SH Stylist strikes again


Most Celestial-level opponents worthy of consideration (ie: strong combatants) will hopefully have SOME method of escaping this scenario, whether by a Step 9 escape mechanism or some other form of movement/defense. It is certainly not always Perfect-or-Die, but it can be provided the opponents lack a way to escape and a high enough DV to avoid a second attack. However, this scenario also requires the Solar to spend some amount Essence to close the gap or prevent the target from moving away. Yes, it is still quite strong - probably too strong - but not always relegated to Perfect-or-Die, if you ask me.
 
I think you're overestimating it's power, but if it becomes a problem, then we can just apply a few debuffs here and there.


But again, I don't think it's as powerful as you're making it out to be.
 
Maybe. I come from groups that often heavily scrutinized the power of custom effects due to the pervasive level of munchkinism among us (admittedly, I have fell to it myself from time to time as well). As a result I tend to heavily weigh on the side of 'EVIL OPNESS AHOY! FIRE THE NERF CANNON!' So, we'll see. Also, the whole multiple Form thing shouldn't matter terribly much until Tiger picks up additional Forms, so there's that I guess. Also, it wouldn't be terribly hard or out of line to make a custom Charm that upgrades ECSJ for a longer duration either, so that might not be a huge issue in the end either.
 
Thanks! And yeah, even IC sometimes rolls poorly - though its definitely better than the 3 successes you might get on the same dice roll using the forum's roller!
 
Its a good thing that this is a game based more on the story than on the fighting, or else I'd have to pull out 3rd circle demons and other enemies of similar power just to hit you guys.
 
Aurora's DVs are (from what I can tell) much higher than what one would usually expect as a result of the Third Arm Glaive. For the rest of us, what you're throwing around would be a sufficient challenge.
 
Yeah, I know. I don't want to smear a PC across the pavement, but I do want to make sure you get an occasional good challenge in. A fine line to try to balance on.
 
Wait for me to get World-Scarring Solar glory and Yozi-Fighting principle and I'll welcome those 3rd Circle baddies, but I will not be held responsible by the consequences of world concepts and principles being altered or destroyed from Creation by having yozis suffering fetish death. ;)
 
I may have to build a few custom charms that replicate some of her Artifacts, but I think I'll be able to keep up with our resident Dawn :D
 
JayTee said:
I may have to build a few custom charms that replicate some of her Artifacts, but I think I'll be able to keep up with our resident Dawn :D
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It's not possible to build a Charm that supersedes Charm limitations on DV the way that the Third Arm Glaive does (which is admittedly in a manner considered by most to be game-breaking). You need to find a way of adding to your DV outside of Charms - so basically equipment, or spells.
 
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