Other Is it more advantageous to be the protagonist of...

[Warrior Spirit]

Do you think it's more advantageous to be protagonist of a fantasy setting than a sci fi setting? Or the other way around?

Let me think...

Being a Mass Effect soldier and leader with access to hi tech armor and guns sounds more pleasant than traveling on horseback as Geralt with all sorts of ugly monsters trying to eat you. This isn't about modern versus dark ages hygiene or anything like that. I'm talking about powers and advantages. We all need to be strong and in shape, but I'd rather attack my enemies with my sniper and vehicle than require several bodyguards when traveling on foot to protect myself from mage bandits.

And compare modern military walls versus stone walls. Modern buildings are insanely impenetrable. Can magic protect you against fighter jets? But for sure, walls and roofs can protect you against destruction magic from Elder Scrolls.

Plus, sci fi worlds tend to have a lot of smart people who see through others' BS. Far less cults, making our adventuring more pleasant.

 

[Murdergurl]

Honestly, Fantasy and Sci-fi genres are equally fantastical in their reach, and in turn, equally fallible. The only difference is the mood of the creativity. Magic has to stem from some sort of preternatural origin, and science fiction just mumbo-jumbo's up some fantastical new tech to achieve the same thing. Now, if you are talking about a HARD science fiction, that's a lot different, this is where you have to realistically use real science and science theories to make your fiction. A lot less wiggle room for science magic

Mass Effect, Halo, Star Wars etc... all fall into Science Fantasy, as they are way too reaching with unconventional technology to be "serious sci-fi". The sci-fi that most people recognize in popular media is science-fantasy, and there aren't a lot of widely recognized Hard Sci-fi fandoms out there. So between Sci-fi and Fantasy, it's generally the same candy in a different wrapper.

The exmples you gave are very fandom-specific. and thats the thing about both of these genres. Depenning on which book/game/movie you are referencing, the parameters of what s and is not allowed shift dramatically.

 

[Warrior Spirit]

Honestly, Fantasy and Sci-fi genres are equally fantastical in their reach, and in turn, equally fallible. The only difference is the mood of the creativity. Magic has to stem from some sort of preternatural origin, and science fiction just mumbo-jumbo's up some fantastical new tech to achieve the same thing. Now, if you are talking about a HARD science fiction, that's a lot different, this is where you have to realistically use real science and science theories to make your fiction. A lot less wiggle room for science magic

Mass Effect, Halo, Star Wars etc... all fall into Science Fantasy, as they are way too reaching with unconventional technology to be serious sci-fi. Essentially, it's the same candy in a different wrapper.

The same way I love my coffee with cream and sugar, I probably wouldn't enjoy hard sci fi.

Have you played Mass Effect Andromeda?

The Tempest (the character and his friends') space ship is like a mini luxury cruise. That's way cozier than a fire and wood encampment surrounded by creepy shadows.

 

[Murdergurl]

The same way I love my coffee with cream and sugar, I probably wouldn't enjoy hard sci fi.

Have you played Mass Effect Andromeda?

The Tempest (the character and his friends') space ship is like a mini luxury cruise. That's way cozier than a fire and wood encampment surrounded by creepy shadows.

I played the First Mass Effect and did not like it. I wasnt a fan of being shoehorned into the role of a Spectre/para-military agent. So i never followed up with any of the sequels

 

[Murdergurl]

also, you are essentially hand-picking out very specific instances to otherwise broad genres. I could point out that in various sci-fi novels, the protagonist exists in a reality where such craft simply do not exist and life is beak and harsh. And juxtaposed to that, there are fantasy settings where the modus of getting around is mere teleportation. why even bother with a craft when.. BAM, step through the summoned portal and there you are? Elven Kings and Queens lived in opulent luxury just the same as a powerful cyberpunk CEO with global reaching influence.

 

[Warrior Spirit]

also, you are essentially hand-picking out very specific instances to otherwise broad genres. I could point out that in various sci-fi novels, the protagonist exists in a reality where such craft simply do not exist and life is beak and harsh. And juxtaposed to that, there are fantasy settings where the modus of getting around is mere teleportation. why even bother with a craft when.. BAM, step through the summoned portal and there you are? Elven Kings and Queens lived in opulent luxury just the same as a powerful cyberpunk CEO with global reaching influence.

Okay I'll give you another one...

Owning a buster sword and a gym as Cloud versus a warrior with a realistic middle ages sword that chips when used and doesn't have access to modern weight training science and equipment.

That buster sword is made of advanced, sci-fi alloy, Miss MurderGurl. And you can't get as strong as Cloud without lifting weights. Dumbbells and barbells.

 

[Sir Les Paul]

It's an assumption that being a protagonist is even advantageous at all. Depending on the work of fiction, being the main character equates to little more than being the most tortured soul in that specific piece of media.

What dictates how tolerable any one setting would be to exist in is the author. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic, so whatever fantastical systems exist in these fictional worlds is the flavor of the chosen author.

There is a parallel to just about every point that has been brought up. Sure, a monster out of nowhere in your medieval town sucks, but the native species of plenty of planets looks awful monstrous, too.

Cloud Strife was empowered via Jenova cells. Basically, an alien entity from outer space. Claim the Buster Sword is made out of whatever alloy you want, but it has Material slots for magic. The whole setting is an amalgam of magic and science, fantasy and science fiction, and it works because the two aren't really that much different.

Given the portrayals of slavery, genocide, AI overlords, and literal biological harvesting that goes on in a lot of science fiction, it's not like any random person or MC is assured some huge quality of life boon just because they exist in a futuristic setting.

I don't really think there's an inherent advantage to either genre. If anything, you're probably better off the closer you get to a slice of life game. If you want an MC with a real advantage, try Sims. You might have a chance to actually buy a house and pay off your student loans.

 

[Murdergurl]

Okay I'll give you another one...

Owning a buster sword and a gym as Cloud versus a warrior with a realistic middle ages sword that chips when used and doesn't have access to modern weight training science and equipment.

That buster sword is made of advanced, sci-fi alloy, Miss MurderGurl. And you can't get as strong as Cloud without lifting weights. Dumbbells and barbells.

one word: Guts

big sword, super strong, part of a group of bandits, fights monsters... sound familiar?
My point is: Same trope, different genre.

And I thought we were forgoing the Hard Science genre. You are pitting Science Fantasy against High Fantasy
But really, all that techy talk about the sword basically just translates to "Magic sword" in a fantasy setting.

And the idea of a gym actually goes back to ancient Rome. Y'know, where we got the Olympics from? Not a modern or sci-fi concept at all.

... so,yeah

 

[Murdergurl]

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic...

Arthur C. Clarke

 

[Warrior Spirit]

one word: Guts
View attachment 1197657
big sword, super strong, part of a group of bandits, fights monsters... sound familiar?
My point is: Same trope, different genre.

And I thought we were forgoing the Hard Science genre. You are pitting Science Fantasy against High Fantasy
But really, all that techy talk about the sword basically just translates to "Magic sword" in a fantasy setting.

And the idea of a gym actually goes back to ancient Rome. Y'know, where we got the Olympics from? Not a modern or sci-fi concept at all.

... so,yeah

You can't compare ancient people swinging wooden objects for shoulder development to modern science and equipment being used to strengthen all three heads of your shoulders.

Weight training existed since ancient times. Legionnaires in Rome were known to throw javelins in training that are twice the weight of normal javelins to develop the upper body. But do you really think those cavemen can compete against an expert coach who trains modern Olympians in throwing javelins? The dude can explain in scientific detail how squats and deadlifts can provide a foundation that's needed for the athlete to be explosive and how plyometrics is a necessary step to make the athlete fast, and then the importance of drilling the technique so that the athlete's nervous system... You get the idea. Can ancient people do that? Of course not.

People tend to get disillusioned because of unrealistically muscular knights and barbarians wielding oak trees in fantasy settings. A realistic version of Guts wouldn't be able to swing a mere claymore in full force because he would have struggled to get enough protein in his diet.

But a sci fi Guts with canned tuna as rations in his Star Wars military encampment... Now that's advantageous. lol

 

[Warrior Spirit]

It's an assumption that being a protagonist is even advantageous at all.

Before I read the rest of your post, I'll go ahead and say... It always is, and not because of plot armor.

Historically, protagonists in RPGs (sci fi and fantasy) are given a distinct power that no other person in their world has. Thu'um for the Dragonborn and spotting demons before they can ambush you for the Grey Warden. Us, the protagonist, are actually free to do as we please with that power. We'll always be the main hero. So yes, bro, it's an advantage. Always.

 

[Sir Les Paul]

Before I read the rest of your post, I'll go ahead and say... It always is, and not because of plot armor.

Historically, protagonists in RPGs (sci fi and fantasy) are given a distinct power that no other person in their world has. Thu'um for the Dragonborn and spotting demons before they can ambush you for the Grey Warden. Us, the protagonist, are actually free to do as we please with that power. We'll always be the main hero. So yes, bro, it's an advantage. Always.

Because of the word choice here, you are categorically incorrect. By stating that the main character always has an advantage, you are disregarding all media designed to portray the main character as "Average Joe" or the various forms of media where the main character is actually given a penalty of some kind to work against. Furthermore, in many roleplaying games (especially those for a TTRPG), any NPC can be given the same leveling system and stat block as a player character. By design, in fact, many of these systems try to make the players (the protagonists) genuinely be simply a character of that role in universe as opposed to the "chosen one" archetype or any of the other archetypes wherein the main character has some special trait that makes them impossible to compare to a normal character.

Go back as far as Beowulf and it's debated if the titular character (the protagonist) even had a supernatural ability or if he was just really good at planning. Throughout the epic, he displays some incredible feats, such as tearing off the arm of Grendel or holding his breath for an absurd time, but in each instance, it is his wit and wisdom (and thus the wisdom of humanity) that have him come out on top. In either case, this acts as an anchor for this next point. We can see stories throughout time wherein the heroes are literally Demigods, like Herakles, where there is in fact a more clear advantage given to them.

This creates a type of image for a hero and general structure for these epic poems of the era. Any time that there is a "culture" created around stories like these, a counter-culture will emerge. This is even more true in modern times. There is sufficient literary examples of normal characters becoming "the hero" without some miraculous special trait that it makes the blanket statement of "all protagonists have advantages" incorrect. Even if it is the minority of situations in the entire, comprehensive works of mankind, it is sufficient.

Now that I have made that point, I'm going disengage from this conversation. It does not appear to me that you are discussing the topic in good faith, but instead attempting to justify your opinion on the topic as opposed to allowing the input of others and having open discussion. This feels more like a "Science Fiction characters have it better than Fantasy Characters, Change my Mind" thread than it does "Which is more advantageous", which is not what I'm about.

 

[AaronMk]

This thread entirely overlooks that science fiction and fantasy are commonly one of the same besides mere aesthetic differences. And that by virtue of being a protagonist in a pulp-fiction story means automatically they win anyways; they're not the leading figure in an earlier tragedy - either Shakespearean or classical - where they're doomed to die or otherwise be punished for their exploits.

This subject entirely misses the forests for the trees

 

[AaronMk]

Because if you really want to just end this argument it's sufficient to go



>Be Sun Wu Kong
>Strike your name off the Lists Of The Dead in the second chapter
>Eat eighteen Pills Of Eternal Life and dozens of Immortality Peaches
>Become so unkillable that Lao Tzu can not uncook it out of you
>Have to be sealed into a rock by the Buddha so you can stop being a terror to God
>This is all just the preamble

ERGO, the fantasy protag can just will themself into invincibility. Discussion over

 

[Warrior Spirit]

Because if you really want to just end this argument it's sufficient to go

View attachment 1197751

>Be Sun Wu Kong
>Strike your name off the Lists Of The Dead in the second chapter
>Eat eighteen Pills Of Eternal Life and dozens of Immortality Peaches
>Become so unkillable that Lao Tzu can not uncook it out of you
>Have to be sealed into a rock by the Buddha so you can stop being a terror to God
>This is all just the preamble

ERGO, the fantasy protag can just will themself into invincibility. Discussion over

Meanwhile, you got Thanos of the Marvel Universe, a sci fi setting, turning back time with one of the infinity stones to easily turn Mister Wukong into his great monkey pet.

 

[AaronMk]

Meanwhile, you got Thanos of the Marvel Universe, a sci fi setting, turning back time with one of the infinity stones to easily turn Mister Wukong into his great monkey pet.

Sun Wukong deals with and overcomes the concept of time itself. Ergo it still doesn't matter and I return to be original point the post before

 

[Jannah]

Honestly, Fantasy and Sci-fi genres are equally fantastical in their reach, and in turn, equally fallible. The only difference is the mood of the creativity. Magic has to stem from some sort of preternatural origin, and science fiction just mumbo-jumbo's up some fantastical new tech to achieve the same thing. Now, if you are talking about a HARD science fiction, that's a lot different, this is where you have to realistically use real science and science theories to make your fiction. A lot less wiggle room for science magic

Mass Effect, Halo, Star Wars etc... all fall into Science Fantasy, as they are way too reaching with unconventional technology to be "serious sci-fi". The sci-fi that most people recognize in popular media is science-fantasy, and there aren't a lot of widely recognized Hard Sci-fi fandoms out there. So between Sci-fi and Fantasy, it's generally the same candy in a different wrapper.

The exmples you gave are very fandom-specific. and thats the thing about both of these genres. Depenning on which book/game/movie you are referencing, the parameters of what s and is not allowed shift dramatically.

This. Absolutely this. I don't really have anything to add as you summed this up so well.

 

[Sir Les Paul]

I'm almost certain this has devolved into a troll thread.

Claiming Marvel is science fiction as if it also isn't fantasy? That's just silly.

This is argument for the sake of argument.

Besides that, the Infinity Stones canonically only work inside of their home universe. Meanwhile, Sun Wukong is effectively outerversal. Even if you humor that argument, it's still just plain incorrect.

OP has bait and switched the subject from the pros and cons of fantasy vs science fiction to a glorified dick measuring contest.

 

[AaronMk]

I'm almost certain this has devolved into a troll thread.

Claiming Marvel is science fiction as if it also isn't fantasy? That's just silly.

This is argument for the sake of argument.

Besides that, the Infinity Stones canonically only work inside of their home universe. Meanwhile, Sun Wukong is effectively outerversal. Even if you humor that argument, it's still just plain incorrect.

OP has bait and switched the subject from the pros and cons of fantasy vs science fiction to a glorified dick measuring contest.

It's pure Reddit. There is no actual interest in literary conversation because the horizon begins and ends at what is basically "Capcom vs Marvel".

In any other situation it would be recognized as setting up an argument for the sake of the argument. But he takes it too seriously as law.

 

[Sir Les Paul]

It's pure Reddit. There is no actual interest in literary conversation because the horizon begins and ends at what is basically "Capcom vs Marvel".

In any other situation it would be recognized as setting up an argument for the sake of the argument. But he takes it too seriously as law.

The premise of the subject had potential for a decent conversation. It is simply unfortunate that it was taken in this nonsensical direction.

It could have been a discussion on the perceived quality of life and types of boons / unique traits or methods by which a chosen one trope manifests in different genres, specifically looking at examples that favor the traditional elements of one genre. Instead, it became a pointless dialogue of virtually everyone in a chorus stating that science fiction and fantasy have overlap and at times become effectively the same thing, which itself was a response to misguided attempts to bolden the blurred line between the genres.

If the conversation was approached with the understanding that there are generalities regarding each genre, the discourse could have been interesting. Instead, it became a playground affair, or as you said, amounting to "Capcom vs Marvel"

In essence, I agree with you, I just lament over what could have been.

 

[AaronMk]

The premise of the subject had potential for a decent conversation. It is simply unfortunate that it was taken in this nonsensical direction.

It could have been a discussion on the perceived quality of life and types of boons / unique traits or methods by which a chosen one trope manifests in different genres, specifically looking at examples that favor the traditional elements of one genre. Instead, it became a pointless dialogue of virtually everyone in a chorus stating that science fiction and fantasy have overlap and at times become effectively the same thing, which itself was a response to misguided attempts to bolden the blurred line between the genres.

If the conversation was approached with the understanding that there are generalities regarding each genre, the discourse could have been interesting. Instead, it became a playground affair, or as you said, amounting to "Capcom vs Marvel"

In essence, I agree with you, I just lament over what could have been.

At the end of the day I think the only notable difference is whether or not a character is a tragic of an epic hero. The tragic hero, despite everything must fall. Where-as the epic hero will, despite everything succeed. Many or all antagonists - like Thanos - must be defeated.

There is of course then a wide diversity of non-heroic fiction where it literally doesn't matter who is what. Like the modernist Norwegian novel Growth Of The Soil literally has a protagonist and antagonist who both come out on top in their own ways and also notably don't hate each other.

 

[Sir Les Paul]

At the end of the day I think the only notable difference is whether or not a character is a tragic of an epic hero. The tragic hero, despite everything must fall. Where-as the epic hero will, despite everything succeed. Many or all antagonists - like Thanos - must be defeated.

There is of course then a wide diversity of non-heroic fiction where it literally doesn't matter who is what. Like the modernist Norwegian novel Growth Of The Soil literally has a protagonist and antagonist who both come out on top in their own ways and also notably don't hate each other.

Antagonist? What?

Thanos was a tragic hero. Try though he might, he failed in his noble crusade. He sacrificed that which he had and never gained the love which he desired. Someone had to make the tough choices.

 

[AaronMk]

Antagonist? What?

Thanos was a tragic hero. Try though he might, he failed in his noble crusade. He sacrificed that which he had and never gained the love which he desired. Someone had to make the tough choices.

An antagonist merely needs to be the foil against the protagonist. Never mind the intentions behind either.

 

[Sir Les Paul]

Well sure, but the protagonist needs to be the driving force of the narrative. I can't think of anyone that drove Endgame harder than the man that wiped out half of sentient life.

 

[Caroline1539]

To put in my two cents, I think, generally, it might be better to deal with life as a fantasy protagonist vs a sci-fi protagonist because at least as a fantasy protagonist you don't have to deal with universe ending threats. If anything it's menial tasks, or defeating the Big Bad, who, while threatening possibly the world, usually isn't out to destroy the universe.

Unless you're Kirby. Or from Dark Souls, I think. But that's just bad luck if you end up in those places.