If I know you all as well as I think.

[Gtroc]

Uuuuuh... I think you are calling bullshit here without having a clue.
First of all I never said that everything needs stats, only the stuff players can get into conflict with. There is a difference for a player whether the storyteller takes a random number of dice, rolls and says "he smacks you good" and the storyteller taking the same number of dice every time the emissary smacks somene good.

1. this is Exalted. What, exactly, can the players not get into conflict with? the game encourages you to set motivations along the size of, stop death, or conquer creation, and on and on.


2. the players only know you are rolling a random number of dice if you let them. my Players have yet to realize that the mad genius immortal bad guy they are fighting has no stats. I figure he is an imortal genius, and my players are not. anything they come up with he has a plan for. unless it is a really special plan. in this way they keep winning the battles, yet they are having a hard time winning the war, due to the contingiencies in the game.


3. I do not see what stats have to do with anything. they are there as a guidline only. this is a game of epic stories, the key word being story. if you want the emissary to die, let him die. is he  a plot device, yes, but so are extras, and trees, and the fucking sky. all of what you describe, as a storyteller, is a plot device. the players themselves are plot devices. stats have nothing to do with the moss on the trees or the charnell after a battle, yet those are part of the plot as well.

 

[Hanat-Osul]

Wow, for a thread I started for the SOLE purpose of mocking the aforementioned "emissary fanbois," this is turning into a fertile ground for ideas and discussion.


You are all smarter than I thought.  Smarter, in fact, than me.  Pat yourselves on the back.

 

[Flagg]

Pat yourselves on the back.

I'm going to pay an illegal immigrant under the table to pat me on the back instead, before they deport them all.


-S

 

[Hanat-Osul]

Jesus.  Why is that so funny?


Go write for Comedy Central, dude.

 

[Flagg]

Go write for Comedy Central' date=' dude.[/quote']
I thought you had to secretly hate yourself to be a comedy writer?


-S

 

[Hanat-Osul]

Yeah, and you have to be either promiscuous, burnt out on drugs, or a minority, as well.

 

[Flagg]

Yeah' date=' and you have to be either promiscuous, burnt out on drugs, or a minority, as well.[/quote']
Well yeah. That goes hand-in-hand with the self-loathing.


-S

 

[Hanat-Osul]

Point.


Also, it's my new goal to break 1000 posts before the month's out.

 

[Ker'ion]

You don't secretly hate yourself? :shock:


Okeeeeeeeey.


I like having stats for a NPC so that I don't forget how many dice to roll and so I know their strengths and weaknesses.


If I don't have stats, then the players may trounce an NPC I wanted to challenge them with (as happened in my last session), or vice versa.


AND, if I have stats for the NPC, I can better gauge how they would respond to a problem.  Would the Emisary walk out into battle with a Wyld Hunt himself, if it was after the Councilor of the Sun?  Or would he send out another member of the Council or a contingent of mercs to do the job for him?


Finally, you forgot an option on the poll.


The 'who cares, ya perv' option. :?

 

[Flagg]

You don't secretly hate yourself? :shock:

Nope. I think I'm awesome. It's all you fuckers that I hate.


-S

 

[Jakk Bey]

Safim--You missed the point.


There are plenty of great examples of a plethora of characters and critters, with all sorts of abilities and goodies in the BWB.  And some story seeds to boot.  But, there are limits to what WW can actually publish in any volume--not only printing costs, but alos the sheer value of the intellectual property that they pay for.


What you are calling "bad writing" is a consequence of WW being a business.  And with the business of writing, there are time constraints.  As well as deadline issues, are a matter that each word written is paid for.  It isn't a vast conspiracy to limit your knowledge to create "railroad" situations, or even deprive STs of chances to use characters.  


The folks at WW have been pretty good at giving STs tools to create and guage their PCs and NPCs.  And given lots of examples and samples of ideas. They literally cannot stat out every character they put in front of you, instead, they guess that you're creative enough, and smart enough to do the job on your own, and give lots of examples to give you a good guage, and flavor text to base your critters and ideas on.


It isn't WW's responsibility to give you everything.  They have given you the tools to do it yourself, and if you can't see that, and can't take advantage of the gift that they give with the copious plot kernals they lace just about every piece in their books, then you deserve nothing but some scorn, because it's already right there.


That you claim to know the minds of the WW staff on this only confirms your ignorance of the nature of the beast.  


The campaign settings are viable for a variety of folks, those who prefer more stable and mapped out adventures, and those who prefer to wing it, or create their own.  


It sounds as if you've had some bad experiences with an ST or two, who used their own ignorance as a shield against reprecussions from bad Storytelling, but that is hardly the fault of the writers at WW, who've done nothing more than give you the tools to do it yourself.


That's like blaming the folks at Craftsman tools for not handing out blueprints for every conceivable use of their power driver.  


That's not bad writing.  Leaving things open ended, and with plenty of good examples for various power levels is empowering for an ST to go out and create their own tales, tailored to their own PCs.

 

[Persell]

Well I didn't get any wood at all at hearing the Emissary may be getting stats or that there will be guidelines in the book about what he might actually be.  On the other hand, though, I like that WW will give me some options on what he could be.  Personally, when there's something that epic that's also open-ended, I freeze up on all the possibilities that he could be and have a tough time pinning down one idea.  I like it when WW gives me some options so then I can explore some of them.  Those options also inspire me to come up with something even more epic.  I guess it's just me, but when there's only a slight blub of something or someone, I tend not to think very much of it.  If it was supposed to be cooler, more things would be said about it.  Now that they are going to say more things about the Emissary, I will now see him as cooler and actually look into him and try to develop him myself.  That's just me, though.


On the grander scale, though, I think that it's better for WW to develop an open-ended NPC that can be ignored by STs who have a better idea.  My philosophy is that it's better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.  The best course of action is to develop several possiblities and then have an ST choose one.  I'm very glad that WW is going into that direction with the mysteries in its game rather than say absolutely nothing about them or writing up splatbooks that go into great detail about what should remain a mystery.  Back during the OWoD, it was quite annoying when they came up with "Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand" and then all of a sudden every character knew about the True Brujah even though it was supposed to be nigh-impossible for anybody else to find out about them.  


If STs are given options how things work, though, I think it still keeps an aura of mystery for the players since even though they've read the possiblities of the Emissary, they don't know which one the ST has chosen, or if the ST has melded the options together in some way.  That way, the ST has a focused guideline on how to treat the Emissary so there's a smaller chance for abuse by STs who have God complexes and the players can't bookbang or metagame how important plotpoints because they don't know which plotpoint the ST has chosen for his game.


As I've said, personally, I'd rather have those kinds of things and not use them than want to use them and not have them.

 

[Persell]

Safim--You missed the point.
There are plenty of great examples of a plethora of characters and critters, with all sorts of abilities and goodies in the BWB.  And some story seeds to boot.  But, there are limits to what WW can actually publish in any volume--not only printing costs, but alos the sheer value of the intellectual property that they pay for.


What you are calling "bad writing" is a consequence of WW being a business.  And with the business of writing, there are time constraints.  As well as deadline issues, are a matter that each word written is paid for.  It isn't a vast conspiracy to limit your knowledge to create "railroad" situations, or even deprive STs of chances to use characters.  


The folks at WW have been pretty good at giving STs tools to create and guage their PCs and NPCs.  And given lots of examples and samples of ideas. They literally cannot stat out every character they put in front of you, instead, they guess that you're creative enough, and smart enough to do the job on your own, and give lots of examples to give you a good guage, and flavor text to base your critters and ideas on.


It isn't WW's responsibility to give you everything.  They have given you the tools to do it yourself, and if you can't see that, and can't take advantage of the gift that they give with the copious plot kernals they lace just about every piece in their books, then you deserve nothing but some scorn, because it's already right there.


That you claim to know the minds of the WW staff on this only confirms your ignorance of the nature of the beast.  


The campaign settings are viable for a variety of folks, those who prefer more stable and mapped out adventures, and those who prefer to wing it, or create their own.  


It sounds as if you've had some bad experiences with an ST or two, who used their own ignorance as a shield against reprecussions from bad Storytelling, but that is hardly the fault of the writers at WW, who've done nothing more than give you the tools to do it yourself.


That's like blaming the folks at Craftsman tools for not handing out blueprints for every conceivable use of their power driver.  


That's not bad writing.  Leaving things open ended, and with plenty of good examples for various power levels is empowering for an ST to go out and create their own tales, tailored to their own PCs.

No, you are missing the point.


1. I never had a problem with a storyteller like that, in fact I was the storyteller for the last 8 years. But you can see this happening all the time. It happens a lot.


2. I studied literature and theatre science and worked for a fair time in publishing companies. I have a very first hand experience of the nature of the beast and while you are correct on the costs, it is also a matter of priorities and WW has set the wrong priorities. 5 possiblities of is nature and not a single set of stats?! come on. Look at Ker'ion's post. There are people who would like some stats. It would have been easy to sacrifice one of these possiblities for some solid stats or outlines for those. Actually I would prefer outlines over raw numbers 'cause that would help people with the tailoring to their group. so now again look at the facts and tell me that is no bad writing or at least not a mistake in setting priorities.


3. Again, leave your generous advice on plot kernels and the great gift I get here to yourself, you do not have the ability to judge whether I use them already or not.

 

[Jakk Bey]

Safim--I just don't agree there.  I rather like the open endedness of the system, and that has been a hallmark of WW, pretty much since its inception.  It's not a mistake, it's a choice in how they present their material, and if it bothers you so much, there is the excellent Eberron setting for d20 that awaits, if you want that kind of detail.


But again, WotC prefer to give toolkits and blueprints--just a lot more detailed.


This isn't a "mistake" on WW's part. It's how they've always presented their material--because they were started out as an alternative to the heavy handed approach that were the hallmark of the industry for so long. It's been the same set of priorities that they've had--and when they've deviated from that, to give folks the Uber coolio whazzit, it's often gyred into some very bad territory--too much information can be a bad thing, and I much prefer it when they hint and leave open the door for you to walk through yourself, rather than shove something in your face.  


I prefer it when they give the tools to do it yourself, and that's the method that they've pretty much done, and then given plenty of plot hooks and kernals, and a few examples to guide you, but let the ST make up their own mind.  


I tell you bald out, it's not a mistake.  You're correct it is a choice, and it's one that they've stuck to--and when they've given in to pressure from fan boys who crave structure and extra coolio doo dads, it's led to things like Sam Haight and worse.


Perhaps then the Storyteller system isn't what you're looking for.  d20 has some great setting material, and their tool kit approach is rock solid for statting and building things, but it's short on theme and flavor often, again because of the constraints of how large a book would have to be in order to accomodate both.  They did well in their Eberron setting, because the core rules were already published and they just were then able to expand on them, instead focusing on building that world--which is a great product, and a great setting, having borrowed a lot from Burning Shaolin and taking a page from their conversion of Adventure.


Exalted ain't that setting.  And WW doesn't do things in that fashion, and they've chosen to do things in this fashion, and I rather like that open ended feel.  It gives a lot of freedom.  


To be honest, I don't really care how you use the ideas presented.  I don't play at your table, what I'm addressing is what amounts to whining about something that has been the hallmark of the Storyteller system since its inception--open ended plot kernals and lots of them, anti-heroes and the BDSM folks who love them, vague goth overtones in some corners, wild exuberant paganism in others, Ren-Fair-esque to Brothers Grimm Fae, Steampunk Autocthon critters, and the occasional nekkid bits, and ridiculous sized weapons, and bloodthirsty foes and sexy demons and dead folk.  Don't like that, then perhaps WW isn't the best choice for you.

 

[Persell]

Safim--I just don't agree there.  I rather like the open endedness of the system' date=' and that has been a hallmark of WW, pretty much since its inception.  It's not a mistake, it's a choice in how they present their material, and if it bothers you so much, there is the excellent [b']Eberron[/b] setting for d20 that awaits, if you want that kind of detail.
But again, WotC prefer to give toolkits and blueprints--just a lot more detailed.


This isn't a "mistake" on WW's part. It's how they've always presented their material--because they were started out as an alternative to the heavy handed approach that were the hallmark of the industry for so long. It's been the same set of priorities that they've had--and when they've deviated from that, to give folks the Uber coolio whazzit, it's often gyred into some very bad territory--too much information can be a bad thing, and I much prefer it when they hint and leave open the door for you to walk through yourself, rather than shove something in your face.  


I prefer it when they give the tools to do it yourself, and that's the method that they've pretty much done, and then given plenty of plot hooks and kernals, and a few examples to guide you, but let the ST make up their own mind.  


I tell you bald out, it's not a mistake.  You're correct it is a choice, and it's one that they've stuck to--and when they've given in to pressure from fan boys who crave structure and extra coolio doo dads, it's led to things like Sam Haight and worse.


Perhaps then the Storyteller system isn't what you're looking for.  d20 has some great setting material, and their tool kit approach is rock solid for statting and building things, but it's short on theme and flavor often, again because of the constraints of how large a book would have to be in order to accomodate both.  They did well in their Eberron setting, because the core rules were already published and they just were then able to expand on them, instead focusing on building that world--which is a great product, and a great setting, having borrowed a lot from Burning Shaolin and taking a page from their conversion of Adventure.


Exalted ain't that setting.  And WW doesn't do things in that fashion, and they've chosen to do things in this fashion, and I rather like that open ended feel.  It gives a lot of freedom.  


To be honest, I don't really care how you use the ideas presented.  I don't play at your table, what I'm addressing is what amounts to whining about something that has been the hallmark of the Storyteller system since its inception--open ended plot kernals and lots of them, anti-heroes and the BDSM folks who love them, vague goth overtones in some corners, wild exuberant paganism in others, Ren-Fair-esque to Brothers Grimm Fae, Steampunk Autocthon critters, and the occasional nekkid bits, and ridiculous sized weapons, and bloodthirsty foes and sexy demons and dead folk.  Don't like that, then perhaps WW isn't the best choice for you.

Shut up you arrogant idiot. I nowhere was stating that I didn't like the setting and pointing me somewhere else is just not your right to do. Especially not out of some wrong sense of superiority or whatever idiocy gets you that intellectual boner you obviously have. Actually you seem not to be able to stay on topic for a single post. Granting stats does not end the open endedness. and actually, you have no clue what you are talking about. there is plenty of examples of stats. from the fafl over 3rd circle demons to greater gods. where is the open endedness there? really come down from your high horse, you really got no reason to be up there.

 

[Jakk Bey]

Touchy there, ain't you Chief?


You're the one complaining about "bad writing" when things aren't statted out, but concede that time constraints are culpable.  


That there are plenty of critters of various power levels that are statted out is the point.  Those are your examples, those are your guides.  You don't need to have every adversary statted out to make use of them, and equating that with "bad writing" is the premise you've been going on about, and I think it's a false premise.


If anyone's on a high horse, it's you Sonny Jim.  


If you're going to lead a discussion, you have to keep up though.  


No one has advocated just leaving things airy fairy or willy nilly at their table, but what I, and others, have advocated, is that we don't need to have everything mapped out for us.  The leads are already there.  The examples are already there.


You've claimed it's "bad writing" not to statt out something that could be an adversary, and instead it's just a "plot device" when that's just not so.  If anyone has committed an intellectual conceit, it's yourself--and I'm just taking some long winded time pointing it out.  Still is a lot more concise, and colorful, in doing so, but what you equate as arrogance at this point, is me trying to be cajole you away from this particular conceit, and perhaps back into something resembling the honest lay of the land.


You've got your own axe to grind, that's fine.  I point you to another product, because you seem fired up at what you're equating as "bad writing" that which has been a hallmark of the WW setting since its inception, and if you missed that point, then perhaps there are other settings and games out there that do exactly what you're looking for.  As for my "right" to suggest something like that...that is particularly entertaining.  I didn't realize that I was in the presence of such an august entity that friendly suggestions are attacks upon your integrity. That, or perhaps you're just a hothouse flower...


You've got a problem with how WW approaches things--and has always approached things--then vote with your feet and stop the Whaaah-bulance and stop with being such a Sally about it.  There are other great products out there that will do exactly what you're looking for, and you can even expend some skull sweat and convert things you like from Exalted.


Or you can step away from the Whaaah-bulance entirely, put down the Sad Sally routine, and be an ST and use the system the way it's intended--to be a creative outlet for you and your players.  


You see something you want to use as an adversary, you've got examples, you've got paper, statt that puppy out and gear it to your PCs.  You've got the tools.  Have at it.  Exercise some of that vaunted intelligence and experience.  Not sure how you want to take it, look at the other examples that have been provided and work something up that seems close enough for you.


WW can't prevent bad STs from stepping up to the plate.  Nor can WotC prevent bad GMs from purchasing their material.  They can assume that folks will use their products, and WW assumes that you have enough sense in your head to be able to extrapolate and create your own visions from the kernels and nuggets they drop.  Frustrating?  Then maybe it's not for you. Maybe the whole pen and paper thing is too much for you, and there are some fine PC and console games out there as well, and of course they won't "railroad" you with their...oh, that's right, they will.


Life ain't fair I guess...

 

[Cthulhu_Wakes]

:shock: Wtf happened in here since last night? Zen all...

 

[Jakk Bey]

I dunno.  I thought we were having a discussion.  I'm not sure what laid a hair across Safim's ass, but it appears to make him a mite irritable...

 

[Persell]

I just had a particularly crappy night and apology for going over the top and misreading stuff there. my last post was written at 4 a.m. in the morning, I know that is not a good explanation nor a good excuse but its the only one I have to offer. As for the gaming system advice. I took that one poorly because I see "this is not the game for you because you are not of my opinion, why don't you try this" as a very poor arguement and not a fair one at all. No idea if it was meant that way, it surely was recieved and read at my end this way.


If you do not mind continuing this, back to the discussion.


I still think my point is very valid for a lot of groups, those guidelines are good helps for inexperienced storytellers. When I look around in my own group, the ST of the alchemicals game (I was not participating at all, just talking and giving advice) was mightily happy about the stats of the FaFL, not 'cause he is a dumb person, but guidelines hurt nobody, no matter how much experience you have.


I think giving these has nothing to do with what WW is all about, I agree, I do like the open/nonexistent metaplot, but I do not see the connection to giving guidelines. I honestly think you are wrong when you bring these two things together. They gave stats to a lot of stuffs, half a dozen third circle demons, elder city gods, 2 deathlords etc.


I never demanded a full statline either, something like for example:


option1: the emissary is the city father of nexus, and about as powerful as the cityfather of the imperial city.


option2: the emissary is an old and powerful spirit gone mercenary, use the stats for a third circle demon


option3: the emissary is a powerful first age exalt, about the same weight class as a deathlord.


Those would be enough and I really don't see where this goes against standing WW policy like I pointed out above.

 

[Jakk Bey]

No hoo hoo.  


I suggested that perhaps you try something else with more structure, because that was where the argument seemed to be stemming from.  Not because you're not of my opinion, but in an honest attempt to help you find a system that gave you that sort of structure.  


And I suggested Eberon because it is an excellent setting, with a lot of the same mythic figures, and an emphasis on anime and wuxia style action.  I. Love. That. Setting.  It rocks the party harder than just about anything that has been put out by d20--except perhaps their take on Star Wars.


I appreciate them not giving out much information on the Emissary, because it opened up another possibility, to me, that you didn't mention.  That the Emissary is a Mortal, who managed to get a hold of some powerful First Age tech to give him lots of power, and the Oath that they give, also fuels his life force.  


And if they'd gone and given even those three examples, I might not have gone that route.  


Overall, I think that the open ended quality for some villains gives the ST a chance to work out mysteries on their own, and go in very different directions.  Which is why they do that--they respect the intelligence of the folks who buy their material enough that they don't feel they have to lay down canon all the time--nice to have some guidelines at times, but for some things, I'd rather have a mystery to flesh out on my own.  Like what lies under Gethanme.  The power of the Emissary, and where it comes from.  In later books, they can go back to those things, and it's always nice to see, later, how far off you were from canon, or where you and WW converged, but it's not necessary.

 

[Persell]

my options were taken out of thin air, the point of my examples were that it wouldn't have hurt WW to give some stats in the manner I described. they could have included


d. he is a mortal with a first age device. treat him as an essence channeler with something similar in scope to the eye of autochton.


see, this isn't in any way against what white wolf has done before, it helps some people tremendously and they have given stats all the time. that is everything which bugs me.

 

[Cthulhu_Wakes]

half a dozen third circle demons,  


I never demanded a full statline either, something like for example:


option1: the emissary is the city father of nexus, and about as powerful as the cityfather of the imperial city.


option2: the emissary is an old and powerful spirit gone mercenary, use the stats for a third circle demon


option3: the emissary is a powerful first age exalt, about the same weight class as a deathlord.

Just some questions and points. Which Third Circle demons have been stated? I haven't seen one.


And the City Father of Nexus is Gen, he's in the Siddie book. Not stated but he's just crazed, from the Firewander district.  That's all ^^;

 

[Persell]

half a dozen third circle demons,  


I never demanded a full statline either, something like for example:


option1: the emissary is the city father of nexus, and about as powerful as the cityfather of the imperial city.


option2: the emissary is an old and powerful spirit gone mercenary, use the stats for a third circle demon


option3: the emissary is a powerful first age exalt, about the same weight class as a deathlord.

Just some questions and points. Which Third Circle demons have been stated? I haven't seen one.


And the City Father of Nexus is Gen, he's in the Siddie book. Not stated but he's just crazed, from the Firewander district.  That's all ^^;

Meh I make mistakes from time to time

 

[Cthulhu_Wakes]

8)  It's all good.

 

[Persell]

:cry:  *huddles in bedroom in the dark with hands clamped over my ears*


Have they stopped fighting yet?  *sniff*