Hanat-Osul
Elder Member
My guess is that many of you will be purchasing the Scavenger Lands book.
If I know you all as well as I think.
- Thread starter Hanat-Osul
- Start date
Jakk Bey
One Thousand Club
Um...no wood. Â I might pick up the book, but I think I'll wait a bit to tweak the rules a bit from 2E first...
memesis
One Thousand Club
In my game the Emissary was a Yozi agent working with the Council of Entities, who were the ghosts of the Solars and Sidereals who instigated a "fix" for the Great Prophecy and created the Deathlords as a consequence of that. Â His job was to find a place that could survive any conceivable political turmoil intact, accumulate Essence-users who could eventually put a stop to the Deathlords, and equip them. Â It worked, and its name was Nexus.
His stats were: Â "I can detect lies infallibly, and I can disappear if attacked". Â What else did the guy really need? Â Anyone properly equipped to fight him could also accomplish his mission, and he could snuff out anyone below that.
His stats were: Â "I can detect lies infallibly, and I can disappear if attacked". Â What else did the guy really need? Â Anyone properly equipped to fight him could also accomplish his mission, and he could snuff out anyone below that.
Cthulhu_Wakes
Black Sun in a White World
Most certainly, I hope it will be interesting enough. And with five write-ups, my hopes are high. And no, no wood Hanat. I'm sorry. Â 
Flagg
The Most Electrifying Man in Sports Entertainment
So the Unconquered Sun, Luna, and the rest of the Incarna are "bad plot devices"?Safim said:
-S
Cthulhu_Wakes
Black Sun in a White World
Because they were decadent fools who fell from grace, the Sun knew that and so did they themselves. They knew, some of them, they were corrupt and he had turned his back on them for it.
Cthulhu_Wakes
Black Sun in a White World
Well what does it matter? Who forces their characters to do stupid shit anyway? *eyes Thorn's former ST* Aside from random jerkoffs who love railroading, what's wrong with an NPC or two who are limited to one city, and are the end all law of that place? You wanna over throw the Council? Do it, throw some stats on your written up version of the Emissary and have at it. It's as easy as that.
Jakk Bey
One Thousand Club
A plot device is a tool. Â And like any tool--be it a hammer, a pipe wrench, or a screwdriver, or even a grapefruit spoon--can be used as a weapon if you hold it right.*
A good device is there to help spur on characters, give them some motivation, a reason to move along. Â A bad device limits their actions. Â
The Emissary can be a great device, albeit I think with a lot of stolen flavor from Planescape's Sigil, and their Lady of Pain. Â So, taking that cue, I've worked up Nexus as being much more like Sigil, with a LOT of doorways throughout the city, as well as the brain rats and other critters running around it, deep labyrinths below, with illithid-esque critters under it, razorvine trellises, and the highest population of God-Blooded anywhere in the Creation, and a whole multiversal crew of characters who are trying like heck to keep a lid on things from the rest of the Creation, while mining those other Creations and Realms for fun and profit. Â Few in the Guild know its secrets, and the real secret in Nexus, at least in my games, is that it is the hub to anywhere and even anywhen if you have the right key, for the right door, at the right time, and it's a secret that the Council of Entities doesn't share with most, and only a few are privy to, and profit from.
In my games, the Emissary is always seen as a woman. Â A manifestation of the Lady of Sorrows, who keeps Nexus. Â Yes, stolen pretty much lock, stock, and barrel from Planescape, but the nice folks at WW did their own mining from that setting, so I just completed the jump myself.
In my Nexus, you've got one layer of traders, mercs, and citizens, who are relatively new, who know the city as a great hub for trade. Â Then, you've got long time citizens who know the city has secrets, and keep well away from them, because it's a good way to wind up dead, or just disappeared. Â Then, you have the folks who know that there are doors that go Elsewhere, and keep the hell away from them, because they're dangerous, and then you've got a network of those in the know, across the Creation, and others, who know the way to the real Nexus, the one that exists in several Creations, that is huge and sprawling, but that Nexus is hard to reach, it's not easy to roll through just any gate to get to, even with a load of cargo, because the Creation isn't quite ready for that yet, and the Council of Entities knows that, as well as the Emissary, so that portion of its nature is its greatest secret. Â Some in the Guild know it, and have been sworn to keep that secret, both for their own profit, and to keep the Bad Things from Beyond from being over run with nascent adventurers who would give up the Creation's location, and the doors to it.
And dangers abound within Nexus for the whole of Creation, save for the efforts of the Council of Entities and their Factors who operate in secret, looking to preserve the secrets of the many Doors to the Outlands, huge strides across the Wyld to other Creations, with Nexus as a starting point. Â On many maps to be found in the city, Nexus is at the center, not the Blessed Isle, and that conceit is a clue to its real nature.
Hardly canon, but lots of fun. Â I'll be interested to see how WW does their Nexus, and what ideas I can !yoink! from it, but I don't imagine that I'll be keeping it whole or hardy.
*Sorry to paraphrase Ani DiFranco, but it's true.
A good device is there to help spur on characters, give them some motivation, a reason to move along. Â A bad device limits their actions. Â
The Emissary can be a great device, albeit I think with a lot of stolen flavor from Planescape's Sigil, and their Lady of Pain. Â So, taking that cue, I've worked up Nexus as being much more like Sigil, with a LOT of doorways throughout the city, as well as the brain rats and other critters running around it, deep labyrinths below, with illithid-esque critters under it, razorvine trellises, and the highest population of God-Blooded anywhere in the Creation, and a whole multiversal crew of characters who are trying like heck to keep a lid on things from the rest of the Creation, while mining those other Creations and Realms for fun and profit. Â Few in the Guild know its secrets, and the real secret in Nexus, at least in my games, is that it is the hub to anywhere and even anywhen if you have the right key, for the right door, at the right time, and it's a secret that the Council of Entities doesn't share with most, and only a few are privy to, and profit from.
In my games, the Emissary is always seen as a woman. Â A manifestation of the Lady of Sorrows, who keeps Nexus. Â Yes, stolen pretty much lock, stock, and barrel from Planescape, but the nice folks at WW did their own mining from that setting, so I just completed the jump myself.
In my Nexus, you've got one layer of traders, mercs, and citizens, who are relatively new, who know the city as a great hub for trade. Â Then, you've got long time citizens who know the city has secrets, and keep well away from them, because it's a good way to wind up dead, or just disappeared. Â Then, you have the folks who know that there are doors that go Elsewhere, and keep the hell away from them, because they're dangerous, and then you've got a network of those in the know, across the Creation, and others, who know the way to the real Nexus, the one that exists in several Creations, that is huge and sprawling, but that Nexus is hard to reach, it's not easy to roll through just any gate to get to, even with a load of cargo, because the Creation isn't quite ready for that yet, and the Council of Entities knows that, as well as the Emissary, so that portion of its nature is its greatest secret. Â Some in the Guild know it, and have been sworn to keep that secret, both for their own profit, and to keep the Bad Things from Beyond from being over run with nascent adventurers who would give up the Creation's location, and the doors to it.
And dangers abound within Nexus for the whole of Creation, save for the efforts of the Council of Entities and their Factors who operate in secret, looking to preserve the secrets of the many Doors to the Outlands, huge strides across the Wyld to other Creations, with Nexus as a starting point. Â On many maps to be found in the city, Nexus is at the center, not the Blessed Isle, and that conceit is a clue to its real nature.
Hardly canon, but lots of fun. Â I'll be interested to see how WW does their Nexus, and what ideas I can !yoink! from it, but I don't imagine that I'll be keeping it whole or hardy.
*Sorry to paraphrase Ani DiFranco, but it's true.
Flagg
The Most Electrifying Man in Sports Entertainment
So, in other words, the Emissary ISN'T a bad plot device, unless you use him as one.Safim said:
-S
Jakk Bey
One Thousand Club
I'm a bit confused as well. Â The Emissary can be used wel, or poorly, but that's up to the ST. Â I think that the original write up for the Emissary was pretty open ended, and I'm a bit confused at how it was supposed to equal "bad plot device" as well...
Flagg
The Most Electrifying Man in Sports Entertainment
Well, you've said that the Emissary "screams plot device", and this makes him bad. Apparently this is because he has no stats.
This would lead any resonable person to the logical inference that any character without stats is also a bad plot device.
Apparently, though, you don't think the Incarna are bad plot devices, for somewhat nebulously explained reasons.
I can understand Jakk's confusion..
-S
This would lead any resonable person to the logical inference that any character without stats is also a bad plot device.
Apparently, though, you don't think the Incarna are bad plot devices, for somewhat nebulously explained reasons.
I can understand Jakk's confusion..
-S
Ok, I try to explain it.
On the level the WW writers operate, that is not taking individual storytellers and players into account by saying for example "joe is a great storyteller, he does not railroad his players". So anything opposing the players does need stats to prevent a bad or inexperienced storyteller from railroading his players. Stats do also give a storyteller a hint of what is realistic for the gameworld and the plot right now. Simple as that. So, the thread was asking if I am going to applaud WW for bad writing. My answer is no.
A lot of people are emissary fanbois, look at threads on this forum. "zomg the emissary pwns ligier and his circle of first age infernals".
oh and yes, if I would use the US or luna as opposition they would surely have some kind of stats.
On the level the WW writers operate, that is not taking individual storytellers and players into account by saying for example "joe is a great storyteller, he does not railroad his players". So anything opposing the players does need stats to prevent a bad or inexperienced storyteller from railroading his players. Stats do also give a storyteller a hint of what is realistic for the gameworld and the plot right now. Simple as that. So, the thread was asking if I am going to applaud WW for bad writing. My answer is no.
A lot of people are emissary fanbois, look at threads on this forum. "zomg the emissary pwns ligier and his circle of first age infernals".
oh and yes, if I would use the US or luna as opposition they would surely have some kind of stats.
Jakk Bey
One Thousand Club
I call bullshit on that.
They do assume that STs can guage their players better than they can, and while they do stat out some folks to give guidelines, I've rarely used any of the stock characters' stats. Â I know my players and their characters, and I can stat things so that they're a challenge for them. Â
Stats or no, I usually just ignore them, or use them as a general guideline.
Golden rule. Â When in doubt, throw it out. Â I throw out canon all the time, because it's my campaign world, and I know my player's characters a lot better than a writer at WW. Â
I think relying on WW to do the skullwork for you is...it's a crutch. Â Not bad for the inexperienced ST, or one who isn't interested in doing the extra work to gear a tale to his PCs.
They do assume that STs can guage their players better than they can, and while they do stat out some folks to give guidelines, I've rarely used any of the stock characters' stats. Â I know my players and their characters, and I can stat things so that they're a challenge for them. Â
Stats or no, I usually just ignore them, or use them as a general guideline.
Golden rule. Â When in doubt, throw it out. Â I throw out canon all the time, because it's my campaign world, and I know my player's characters a lot better than a writer at WW. Â
I think relying on WW to do the skullwork for you is...it's a crutch. Â Not bad for the inexperienced ST, or one who isn't interested in doing the extra work to gear a tale to his PCs.
Jakk Bey
One Thousand Club
I call bullshit on the idea that anything without stats is a "plot device" and anything with stats is intended to be a "challenge".
That the idea of putting stats, one way or another, is "bad" writing.
That the idea of putting stats, one way or another, is "bad" writing.
Uuuuuh... I think you are calling bullshit here without having a clue.
First of all I never said that everything needs stats, only the stuff players can get into conflict with. There is a difference for a player whether the storyteller takes a random number of dice, rolls and says "he smacks you good" and the storyteller taking the same number of dice every time the emissary smacks somene good. In the first example the player and the character feel railroaded, in the second they feel like "ok, I am so going to learn a new combo and set up a trap for you". Big difference, if you can't see it, your loss and the loss of your group.
Second, I never said I would let WW do the skullwork for me and assuming so pulling "facts" out of your arse. I never said that I wanted stats 'cause I am too lazy to make up my own, so don't assume I am. And like I said, WW does not operate on the same level as you, 'cause you are ubercool and all, got your bunch of fanbois around here and of course customtailor anything 'cause you never ever want to use stock characters (*gasp*). Well not everyone is the ubercreative hobby author, kissed by the muses and blessed by creativity herself. Some people just want custom stats as a guideline and tailor them to their campaign if they need to. That is nothing bad, be the storyteller inexperienced or not. If that works for someone you have surely no right to call bullshit on that. Actually I think that is pretty arrogant of you.
So, back to the level on which the WW writers operate. Their campaign setting has to be viable for a lot of people some are uncreative idiots like me, others are overly creative gods of writing like Jakk (btw, I really think you should have gotten the nobel price last year). Anyway, none of them are actually hurt by stats (or even prevented from adjusting them to their own campaign *gasp*), but some might be hurt by the lack of them. They are guidelines to go by, helping those who need them. It happens to inexperienced or not so well prepared storytellers a lot that situations get unrealistic without stats. there is the lunar soak monster who takes 35 levels of damage in 5 rounds while he should be dead after 32 (regeneration taken into account and all that) or npcs which roll a different number of dice every damn time. things like that can spoil the immersion and nobody can tell me that these things don't happen to pros, too when they operate fully without stats for certain antagonists. stats on the other hand prevent you most of the time from pulling unrealistic stuff like that. so stats don't hurt your story, they help it.
First of all I never said that everything needs stats, only the stuff players can get into conflict with. There is a difference for a player whether the storyteller takes a random number of dice, rolls and says "he smacks you good" and the storyteller taking the same number of dice every time the emissary smacks somene good. In the first example the player and the character feel railroaded, in the second they feel like "ok, I am so going to learn a new combo and set up a trap for you". Big difference, if you can't see it, your loss and the loss of your group.
Second, I never said I would let WW do the skullwork for me and assuming so pulling "facts" out of your arse. I never said that I wanted stats 'cause I am too lazy to make up my own, so don't assume I am. And like I said, WW does not operate on the same level as you, 'cause you are ubercool and all, got your bunch of fanbois around here and of course customtailor anything 'cause you never ever want to use stock characters (*gasp*). Well not everyone is the ubercreative hobby author, kissed by the muses and blessed by creativity herself. Some people just want custom stats as a guideline and tailor them to their campaign if they need to. That is nothing bad, be the storyteller inexperienced or not. If that works for someone you have surely no right to call bullshit on that. Actually I think that is pretty arrogant of you.
So, back to the level on which the WW writers operate. Their campaign setting has to be viable for a lot of people some are uncreative idiots like me, others are overly creative gods of writing like Jakk (btw, I really think you should have gotten the nobel price last year). Anyway, none of them are actually hurt by stats (or even prevented from adjusting them to their own campaign *gasp*), but some might be hurt by the lack of them. They are guidelines to go by, helping those who need them. It happens to inexperienced or not so well prepared storytellers a lot that situations get unrealistic without stats. there is the lunar soak monster who takes 35 levels of damage in 5 rounds while he should be dead after 32 (regeneration taken into account and all that) or npcs which roll a different number of dice every damn time. things like that can spoil the immersion and nobody can tell me that these things don't happen to pros, too when they operate fully without stats for certain antagonists. stats on the other hand prevent you most of the time from pulling unrealistic stuff like that. so stats don't hurt your story, they help it.