[Gaming Group] Real World Exalted

[Aasharu]

Well, make a character in the character creation thread. I updated the first post with the 4 people who have already made characters, and I'd like to keep the party at no more then 6 people. However, if enough people want in, we can bump it up to 8, although that's rather unwieldy.

 

[FluffySquirrel]

Oooh, I'd also be interested in playing.. in GMT, but if it's starting early, that wouldn't be a problem for me..


Shame about the disallow of lunars, I think I'd tend towards a changing moon myself, but could also go for a Solar - Dawn caste


I own every splat and book from the exalted series.. except for 2e alchemicals.. which seemed to go annoyingly quickly out of print in the UK


Anyhoo, will post a profile in the other thread on offchance there's a space remaining ^^

 

[ShadowDragon8685]

Character creation thread? Yeeesh! *goes to look*


[edit] Is it in a different forum from this one?

 

[HowlingCoyote]

Character creation thread? Yeeesh! *goes to look*
[edit] Is it in a different forum from this one?

It's right here.

 

[Aasharu]

OK, so a bit about how we're going to do Character creation here. Essentially, what you're going to do is make two different characters: your unexalted, mortal self, and your exalted self. Now, for how to do this:

Attributes: For attributes, you'll start with four dots for your primary attributes, three for your secondary, and two for your tertiary. Remember that your character is based on you, so try to be realistic on this. For instance, I would not have any of my physical attributes above 2, with a strength of 1. Don't worry if, for instance, you're planning to play a Dawn caste, but Physical attributes should be your tertiary. You'll get plenty of points in the next section.


Abilities: For abilities, you get 10 ability points. You all get Lore 1 for free, since you are all capable of reading what I'm posting. You also get Lore specialty (Read the Books +3), and please post a general list of what books you have as well. Again, try to be realistic: I doubt any of you are generals or soldiers, so none of you are likely to have any dots in War, for instance. Again, don't worry if realistic isn't good for your exalt type; when you actually Exalt, that will all change.


Everything Else: Select virtues as normal, calculate willpower, the whole nine yards. You don't have any backgrounds, (yet...) and you have Essence 1. Choose intimacies as normal, all of which should be things in the real world, as that's part of the experience. Deposited in a fantastical magical world, and elevated to demigod status, can your character continue to care for the people he left behind in his old world? You also have 5 bonus points.


Again, if this seems way underpowered, don't worry, it is, but you won't be for long.

Now, on to your Exalted self:

Attributes: You gain an additional 4, 3, and 2 points to allocate. Furthermore, your primary, secondary and tertiary attributes do not have to be the same as the PST attributes you had as a mortal.


Abilities: Select 5 favored abilities, and you gain 25 ability points. All other normal rules about Abilities for a new Exalted apply.


Advantages: You get 7 dots for backgrounds, but may only purchase the Artifact or Manse backgrounds. You may, however, purchase any of them up to 5, if you wish. You get 10 charms, as normal, and choose a flawed virtue, but not a specific flaw: due to the events that brought you here, you will all have a specific, storyteller-crafted flaw. Your Essence jumps up to 2. Finally, you have 15 bonus points.


So, in essence, you will all start off as weak mortals, then become slightly overpowered Exalts. Also, you may boost the lore ability, but you may not purchase any other specialties. You will all automatically start off with an understanding of Old Realm, and whatever language you speak in real life, but nothing else.

Ask me if you have any questions, or tell me if there's anything I missed.

 

[Toptomcat]

You'd have to beat me away with a stick to keep me from applying for this one.


Edit: Do you want the full sheets posted in the thread you have for our character bios, or should we PM them to you?

 

[Aasharu]

Edit them into your post for your character. Also, we're going to bump the number of people up to 8. That will give us a nice buffer in case people can't make it, while not being too unwieldy. Also, I encourage you to make choices about your character based on what you want, not on what other people are doing. If there are a few holes in the group, that's fine. As I said, this will be roleplay intensive.


Also, ShadowDragon has requested that his character be transformed into a female during the transition, so that's why his character is a girl.

 

[ShadowDragon8685]

Also, ShadowDragon has requested that his character be transformed into a female during the transition, so that's why his character is a girl.

That's not what I requested, but it's the closest compromise the GM seems willing to tolerate at chargen. Note to self: pick up Swiss Army Knife of the First Circle at soonest convienance.


The reasoning behind this (besides the fact that I am an unreprentant perv) is to avoid it being a complete re-hash of my story. Which, to avoid things getting too meta-meta, I might just need to forget I wrote.


I do, however, have some questions: With the new way you're dividing attributes, it's entirely possibly to get 6/6/6s. As a mortal, I'm a fat bastard, so physical would obviously be my tertiary... Actually, physical and social would probably both be terteriaries, with mental primary. As a Dawn-Caste with the body of a crazy-fast reacting teenager, things could be different, naturally, but... Ah, I'll figure it out. We do have BP, after all.


Now, on to Virtues. As mortals, none of us probably have a Virtue above 2. I see people on the side of the highway every day on the way to and from work, but I usually don't stop unless they're actively signalling for help, and even then I just call the state troopers and roll Join Traffic again. (And yes, I think of it in those terms, usually with DragonForce pumped up.)


But I'd say Compassion is still my Primary virtue. As an Exalt, it would jump, but you've told us to calculate Virtues as normal for mortals. Even stretching it any saying that I have Compassion 3 and just ususally surpress my primary virtue (at no penalty) in favor of not being late to work leaves us a bit stunted; not to mention that in order to be very realistic, I'd have at most Valor 2. Not the best traits for a Dawn Caste; worse, Virtues are the most critical factor in determining motes, bar none. With realistic, stunted non-Heroic Mortal Virtues, especially at chargen (when Virtues grant Willpower for free, which in turn grant motes) we'll be massively handicapped in the motes department; there will be Terrestrial builds that will at equal Essence out-mote us.


Needless to say, this is a bad thing.


Might I suggest house-ruling the Solar (and equavilent) multiplier for motes up by one? IE, instead of ([Essence *3] + Willpower) for Personal mote pools, it's [Essence * 4], and instead of * 7 for Peripheral, it's * 8?

 

[Andoriol]

To make sure it gets seen: ShadowDragon suggested fusing all of the elemental crafts into a single ability, are we using this system and/or what other house-rules are we going to be running? Any idea yet?

 

[Andoriol]

Now, on to Virtues. As mortals, none of us probably have a Virtue above 2. I see people on the side of the highway every day on the way to and from work, but I usually don't stop unless they're actively signalling for help, and even then I just call the state troopers and roll Join Traffic again. (And yes, I think of it in those terms, usually with DragonForce pumped up.)
But I'd say Compassion is still my Primary virtue. As an Exalt, it would jump, but you've told us to calculate Virtues as normal for mortals. Even stretching it any saying that I have Compassion 3 and just ususally surpress my primary virtue (at no penalty) in favor of not being late to work leaves us a bit stunted; not to mention that in order to be very realistic, I'd have at most Valor 2. Not the best traits for a Dawn Caste; worse, Virtues are the most critical factor in determining motes, bar none. With realistic, stunted non-Heroic Mortal Virtues, especially at chargen (when Virtues grant Willpower for free, which in turn grant motes) we'll be massively handicapped in the motes department; there will be Terrestrial builds that will at equal Essence out-mote us.


Needless to say, this is a bad thing.


Might I suggest house-ruling the Solar (and equavilent) multiplier for motes up by one? IE, instead of ([Essence *3] + Willpower) for Personal mote pools, it's [Essence * 4], and instead of * 7 for Peripheral, it's * 8?

Um, I used Anathema to make a (non-heroic) mortal and you get the same number of points available for virtues.


And on the valor thing, it's perfectly reasonable that it's at 1 or 2, if you don't like it, buy another point in it with your bonus points, it's what I was doing, bumping my valor up from 1 to 2 in the transition.

 

[ShadowDragon8685]

Um, I used Anathema to make a (non-heroic) mortal and you get the same number of points available for virtues.
And on the valor thing, it's perfectly reasonable that it's at 1 or 2, if you don't like it, buy another point in it with your bonus points, it's what I was doing, bumping my valor up from 1 to 2 in the transition.

Points available isn't the Bad Thing, Andoriol. It is my custom to build my Dawn Castes with Valor 5 and Compassion (Primary) 5 with BP or XP-Usable-at-Chargen, thus giving me an automatic Willpower 8 and letting me bump that up to 10 for a few BP more.


But, if forced to constrain myself to a "realistic" estimation of my own virtues, I wouldn't put any BP into them during the Mortal phase because I'm a self-centered, intemperate, cowardly jerk who has aspirations of being a great hero who'd defend others at personal risk and like to think of myself as compassionate, but when the chips are down I'd probably run away; and when the paycheque comes in, instead of donating to one of any number of important relief funds or charity, I horde it to buy more RPG books and save the rest for a new computer.


Hence, I'd have an insurmountable climb to high Virtue once we get into the Exalted phase; I'd literally have to dump everything all-in.

 

[Andoriol]

Um, I used Anathema to make a (non-heroic) mortal and you get the same number of points available for virtues.
And on the valor thing, it's perfectly reasonable that it's at 1 or 2, if you don't like it, buy another point in it with your bonus points, it's what I was doing, bumping my valor up from 1 to 2 in the transition.

Points available isn't the Bad Thing, Andoriol. It is my custom to build my Dawn Castes with Valor 5 and Compassion (Primary) 5 with BP or XP-Usable-at-Chargen, thus giving me an automatic Willpower 8 and letting me bump that up to 10 for a few BP more.


But, if forced to constrain myself to a "realistic" estimation of my own virtues, I wouldn't put any BP into them during the Mortal phase because I'm a self-centered, intemperate, cowardly jerk who has aspirations of being a great hero who'd defend others at personal risk and like to think of myself as compassionate, but when the chips are down I'd probably run away; and when the paycheque comes in, instead of donating to one of any number of important relief funds or charity, I horde it to buy more RPG books and save the rest for a new computer.


Hence, I'd have an insurmountable climb to high Virtue once we get into the Exalted phase; I'd literally have to dump everything all-in.

Ah, 'fraid it was that... mmn... I don't know the rules well enough at the moment to suggest a fix on that one... you're going to have to dump the Valor 5 Compassion 5 though, straight up. Personally, while I know the dots come out right for me, I also know I've got more issues than just the one, so I'm actually considering asking for another virtue flaw with no corrosponding bonus points.


Honestly, can't help you there... maybe you rule that the points are severly suppressed until Exaltation, at which point the surge of awesome shakes up your whole psyche? I 'dunno, it's between you and Aarashu on that one.

 

[ShadowDragon8685]

Which is why I suggested incrementing the modifier placed on the Essence-score motes.

 

[HowlingCoyote]

I updated my sheet with my build so far, though it may change a bit. Take a look and let me know if you find any errors, or if I've just done something plain wrong.

 

[Toptomcat]

We're getting exactly the same number of Virtue dots that a normal Solar would get at chargen. So your complaint is that if you build to concept- a concept demanded by the central conceit of the game- the resulting character isn't as effective as it could be if you'd made optimal mechanical choices?


If being an iron-willed steely-nerved Dawn that can and will thrash a Terrestrial one-on-one is inconsistent with your own personality as you see it, then why be dead set on making that character? The ST said that things would be roleplay-heavy anyway, and the whole point of this chronicle is the self-insert aspect.


And if you're really concerned about having a tiny mote pool, spend the BPs to raise your starting Essence to 3. That will more than make up for the difference caused by having non-optimal Virtues.

 

[Andoriol]

Which is why I suggested incrementing the modifier placed on the Essence-score motes.

Personally, I don't like that fix, what if you 'sold' your 'extra' virtues for BP to use as a mortal and then used your BP as an Exalted to get some of them 'back'?

 

[ShadowDragon8685]

We're getting exactly the same number of Virtue dots that a normal Solar would get at chargen. So your complaint is that if you build to concept- a concept demanded by the central conceit of the game- the resulting character isn't as effective as it could be if you'd made optimal mechanical choices?
If being an iron-willed steely-nerved Dawn that can and will thrash a Terrestrial one-on-one is inconsistent with your own personality as you see it, then why be dead set on making that character? The ST said that things would be roleplay-heavy anyway, and the whole point of this chronicle is the self-insert aspect.

As I tend to say, if you can't survive the rollplay, you don't get to roleplay. It's one thing when I'm writing a story where the only possible results are "win," "Draw" and "run away to fight another day," but in real Exalted combat, "draw" and "run away" are the exceptions, not the rule.

And if you're really concerned about having a tiny mote pool, spend the BPs to raise your starting Essence to 3. That will more than make up for the difference caused by having non-optimal Virtues.

I was planning to do that anyway, but it really won't make up for having non-optimal virtues. Let's look at this now:


Essence 2, Compassion5/Valor 5/Temperance 1/Conviction 2, Willpower 10:


Personal Pool: 16, of which 6 comes from Essence score, and 10 comes from Willpower.


Peripheral Pool: 37, of which 14 comes from Essence score, 13 comes from Virtues and 10 comes from Willpower.


Total number of motes: 53


Essence 2, Compassion 3/Valor 2/Temperance 1/Conviction 2, Willpower 5:


Personal Pool: 11, of which 6 comes from Essence score, and 5 from Willpower.


Peripheral Pool: 26, of which 14 comes from Essence score, 7 comes from Virtues and 5 comes from Willpower


Total number of motes: 37


Essence 3, Compassion 5/Valor 5/Temperance 1/Conviction 2, Willpower 10:


Personal Pool: 19, of which 9 comes from Essence score, and 10 comes from Willpower


Peripheral Pool: 44, of which 21 comes from Essence score, 13 comes from Virtues and 10 comes from Willpower.


Total number of motes: 63


Essence 3, Compassion 3/Valor 2/Temperance 1/Conviction 2, Willpower 5:


Personal Pool: 14, of which 9 comes from Essence score, and 5 from Willpower.


Peripheral Pool: 33, of which 21 comes from Essence score, 7 comes from Virtues and 5 comes from Willpower


Total number of motes: 47


There's a difference of 16 motes in either case. Now, this may seem like a lot of motes, but if you throw on a decent set of artifact armor and a decent artifact sword, that's it, you've had it! You can be wiped out in one round by a good flurry-munchkin; hell, just a couple of half-way decent mortal flurriers with a good coordinator.


And of course, since the only Backgrounds we're allowed to buy are Manses and artifacts, the problem will be even larger. Either we let those background points go to waste, or we fuck ourselves over with artifact mote costs. Those Manses will require artifacts to put the hearthstones in, of course, and most likely they'd be Manse In Absentia, being useful and loved only for the hearthstones since I doubt we're going to visit them any time soon (if ever.)


[edit] I should point out that it will take until Essence four to make up the gap in your Peripheral Pool. You won't make up the gap in your Personal pool until Essence six, which is unattainable in 'normal' play. Furthermore, the cost of getting those extra motes back goes up up up once play has commenced; you no longer get free Willpower dots when you purcase a Virtue in-game, thus increasing your effective cost.

 

[Andoriol]

I was planning to do that anyway, but it really won't make up for having non-optimal virtues. Let's look at this now:


Essence 2, Compassion5/Valor 5/Temperance 1/Conviction 2, Willpower 10:


Personal Pool: 16, of which 6 comes from Essence score, and 10 comes from Willpower.


Peripheral Pool: 37, of which 14 comes from Essence score, 13 comes from Virtues and 10 comes from Willpower.


Total number of motes: 53


Essence 2, Compassion 3/Valor 2/Temperance 1/Conviction 2, Willpower 5:


Personal Pool: 11, of which 6 comes from Essence score, and 5 from Willpower.


Peripheral Pool: 26, of which 14 comes from Essence score, 7 comes from Virtues and 5 comes from Willpower


Total number of motes: 37


Essence 3, Compassion 5/Valor 5/Temperance 1/Conviction 2, Willpower 10:


Personal Pool: 19, of which 9 comes from Essence score, and 10 comes from Willpower


Peripheral Pool: 44, of which 21 comes from Essence score, 13 comes from Virtues and 10 comes from Willpower.


Total number of motes: 63


Essence 3, Compassion 3/Valor 2/Temperance 1/Conviction 2, Willpower 5:


Personal Pool: 14, of which 9 comes from Essence score, and 5 from Willpower.


Peripheral Pool: 33, of which 21 comes from Essence score, 7 comes from Virtues and 5 comes from Willpower


Total number of motes: 47


There's a difference of 16 motes in either case. Now, this may seem like a lot of motes, but if you throw on a decent set of artifact armor and a decent artifact sword, that's it, you've had it! You can be wiped out in one round by a good flurry-munchkin; hell, just a couple of half-way decent mortal flurriers with a good coordinator.


And of course, since the only Backgrounds we're allowed to buy are Manses and artifacts, the problem will be even larger. Either we let those background points go to waste, or we fuck ourselves over with artifact mote costs. Those Manses will require artifacts to put the hearthstones in, of course, and most likely they'd be Manse In Absentia, being useful and loved only for the hearthstones since I doubt we're going to visit them any time soon (if ever.)

Kay... but we're not going to be munchkining or whatever you'd call it. A large part of this is going to be 'Oh fuck! I'm gonna die I'm gonna dieI'mgonnadie-!' etc. Personally, I'd like to buy a third Essence dot and/or spells, but I'm not going to because it doesn't feel right for the roleplaying aspect.


This is going to be a roleplay heavy game, and look at the group getting set up, ~8 Solars. Fuck, we're not going to run into many things that'll challenge a group like that for a while (as long as no one gets the wyld hunt on our asses or we get seperated by a considerable margin, but I digress).


And if you're really that bothered by it, 'sell' your 'extra' virtues for BP that you use in other areas as a mortal and 'buy back' some of your virtues when you get the extra BP as an Exalt.

 

[ShadowDragon8685]

Kay... but we're not going to be munchkining or whatever you'd call it. A large part of this is going to be 'Oh fuck! I'm gonna die I'm gonna dieI'mgonnadie-!' etc. Personally, I'd like to buy a third Essence dot and/or spells, but I'm not going to because it doesn't feel right for the roleplaying aspect.
This is going to be a roleplay heavy game, and look at the group getting set up, ~8 Solars. Fuck, we're not going to run into many things that'll challenge a group like that for a while (as long as no one gets the wyld hunt on our asses or we get seperated by a considerable margin, but I digress).


And if you're really that bothered by it, 'sell' your 'extra' virtues for BP that you use in other areas as a mortal and 'buy back' some of your virtues when you get the extra BP as an Exalt.

Eight Solars can do down just as easily as eight Heroic Mortals if they're deeply unoptimized. You being a fucking Solar Exalt doesn't matter one shit if all you have between you and things that want to do you harm is a Melee Excellency; you'll be burning through your motes of Essence in two rounds. One if you're deeply unoptimized and have a lower Melee pool to start with, requiring you spend more on that Excellency to be safe.


Being Exalted, even Solar Exalted, doesn't grant you immunity from either jack or shit, but it does make you a big fat target. Frankly, I can't see the Death Lords passing up a chance to capture eight deeply unoptimized Solars; they grab you, Abyssalize your shards, then have their other DKs just gank you flat-out so they can put them in a more optimized mortal.


[edit] My rule of thumb is to always build as if Jon Chung were the ST. A character who's mechanically powerful can enjoy roleplaying just as well as a character who isn't, but a character who isn't will seldom survive, let alone enjoy, getting into combat, which is part and parcel of Exalted.

 

[Andoriol]

Eight Solars can do down just as easily as eight Heroic Mortals if they're deeply unoptimized. You being a fucking Solar Exalt doesn't matter one shit if all you have between you and things that want to do you harm is a Melee Excellency; you'll be burning through your motes of Essence in two rounds. One if you're deeply unoptimized and have a lower Melee pool to start with, requiring you spend more on that Excellency to be safe.


Being Exalted, even Solar Exalted, doesn't grant you immunity from either jack or shit, but it does make you a big fat target. Frankly, I can't see the Death Lords passing up a chance to capture eight deeply unoptimized Solars; they grab you, Abyssalize your shards, then have their other DKs just gank you flat-out so they can put them in a more optimized mortal.

The way you wrote that comes across as defensive and angry, I'd appreciate it if you tried to avoid that, I'm just trying to help.


It seems (seems, I don't know for sure) that you're assuming that everyone else is optimized. Unless I'm horribly mistaken (and I could be, I haven't read all the books) a Solar fighting a Heroic Mortal shouldn't be a major contest unless that Mortal is several degrees of whup-ass more powerful than the Solar...


Okay, that's not exactly how I want to say that, but... unless that Heroic Mortal has considerably more experience (big E and little e) than the Solar, shouldn't a Solar still beat the crap out of the Mortal?


People aren't perfect beings of destruction in a certain area unless they're an Elder Exalt, 'normal' people probably won't have stuff at five dots in anything, virtues, abilities, anything. They have flaws and failings and issues galore even if they aren't struck with the great curse.


To summarize: If you really lived in Creation, you wouldn't be a munchkin.


On the Deathlords, you might have a point, if the Deathlords were aware of them (us, whatever, blech, pronoun trouble) they'd probably try to capture/kill the group if they were obviously weak. The thing that I'm seeing is this: How does anyone else know that you're unoptimized? All of Creation isn't in kahootz to kill you (it's all trying to kill you yes, but it's fighting itself as well), all any one group would probably know is that the group isn't combat heavy (if they found them in the first place).


That said, we're going to be meta-gaming like all get out and avoiding flaring animas and caste-marks at all costs. We know what is all out there to get us and we're going to avoid attracting its attention.


And I might of missed it, but did you reply to the 'sell the virtues as a mortal, buy them back as an Exalt' idea?


[edit] Okay, this:

My rule of thumb is to always build as if Jon Chung were the ST. A character who's mechanically powerful can enjoy roleplaying just as well as a character who isn't, but a character who isn't will seldom survive, let alone enjoy, getting into combat, which is part and parcel of Exalted.

I can understand and sympathize, I just don't see an 'un-optimized' character being an issue unless Aasharu actively tries to kill us out of spite, and unless he's a lying sack of shit, combat won't even be a major part of this for a while, in which time you can adjust your stats closer to your optimized build.


For once, the writers adage: "Your characters are a part of you, but they're not you" doesn't hold up. This character is supposed to basically be you, flaws and failings and all.

 

[Toptomcat]

My rule of thumb is to always build as if Jon Chung were the ST. A character who's mechanically powerful can enjoy roleplaying just as well as a character who isn't, but a character who isn't will seldom survive, let alone enjoy, getting into combat, which is part and parcel of Exalted.

I can understand and sympathize, I just don't see an 'un-optimized' character being an issue unless Aasharu actively tries to kill us out of spite, and unless he's a lying sack of shit, combat won't even be a major part of this for a while, in which time you can adjust your stats closer to your optimized build.


For once, the writers adage: "Your characters are a part of you, but they're not you" doesn't hold up. This character is supposed to basically be you, flaws and failings and all.

I'd like to energetically second this. This is a different kind of game. Exalted can be played as the kind of game you're thinking of. But we're not doing that, and there are other kinds of games within Exalted as well. We're playing one of those other games, not Chungian RPG.net Exalted.

 

[ShadowDragon8685]

The way you wrote that comes across as defensive and angry, I'd appreciate it if you tried to avoid that, I'm just trying to help.

Sorry if it came off that way, it wasn't meant that way.

It seems (seems, I don't know for sure) that you're assuming that everyone else is optimized. Unless I'm horribly mistaken (and I could be, I haven't read all the books) a Solar fighting a Heroic Mortal shouldn't be a major contest unless that Mortal is several degrees of whup-ass more powerful than the Solar...

You are; if someone is a Solar, but has Dexterity 2, Melee 1, the First Melee Excellency, and a straight sword, that Solar will get his ass kicked, every single time, by a Heroic Mortal with Dexterity 4, Melee 5 (Straight Swords +3), and no magic whatsoever.


It's easily possible for a Heroic Mortal to kill a non-combat optimized Solar, but it's altoegther much, much easier for even basic spirits to kill a combat-optimized Solar who isn't combat-optimized enough. Trust me, I've crunched the numbers with a 63-XP Solar build of mine who was tweaked to kill spirits and a Celestial Lion; the Solar lost.


One of Heaven's beat cops for crying out loud, not even a named Deity of Ass-Whupping!

Okay, that's not exactly how I want to say that, but... unless that Heroic Mortal has considerably more experience (big E and little e) than the Solar, shouldn't a Solar still beat the crap out of the Mortal?

Depends on how that Experiance is spent. If the Heroic Mortal has sunk all of it into becoming an unconquerable master of Mortal Kombat and the Solar has sunk 90% of hers into Bureaucracy, Ride and Lore charms, the Solar will die. Of course, the ST could play the Mortal like an imminantly conquerable idiot to let the Solar survive, but that leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

People aren't perfect beings of destruction in a certain area unless they're an Elder Exalt, 'normal' people probably won't have stuff at five dots in anything, virtues, abilities, anything. They have flaws and failings and issues galore even if they aren't struck with the great curse.
To summarize: If you really lived in Creation, you wouldn't be a munchkin.

Most people in Creation survive combat by not getting into it. Those who do, and whose jobs are more than bringing battle to those who don't want to get into it (IE, bullies, thugs, bandits, and town guards,) are going to be either green-troop cannon fodder who will easily kill even a combat-optimized Solar if he's optimized for single combat and they force him into the context of Mass Combat, or champions of mortal battle who can and will lop the head off a deeply-unoptimized Solar.

On the Deathlords, you might have a point, if the Deathlords were aware of them (us, whatever, blech, pronoun trouble) they'd probably try to capture/kill the group if they were obviously weak. The thing that I'm seeing is this: How does anyone else know that you're unoptimized? All of Creation isn't in kahootz to kill you (it's all trying to kill you yes, but it's fighting itself as well), all any one group would probably know is that the group isn't combat heavy (if they found them in the first place).

Death Lords would certainly be aware of us the first time we ran into a DK, since it seems unlikely we'd be able to kill said DK.

That said, we're going to be meta-gaming like all get out and avoiding flaring animas and caste-marks at all costs. We know what is all out there to get us and we're going to avoid attracting its attention.

Another reason to optimize willpower: Personal essence pool!

And I might of missed it, but did you reply to the 'sell the virtues as a mortal, buy them back as an Exalt' idea?

You can't sell virtues like that. And even if you could, the point was to play us, not caricatures of ourselves. There's no way in hell I could justify having Compassion 5.

[edit] Okay, this:

My rule of thumb is to always build as if Jon Chung were the ST. A character who's mechanically powerful can enjoy roleplaying just as well as a character who isn't, but a character who isn't will seldom survive, let alone enjoy, getting into combat, which is part and parcel of Exalted.

I can understand and sympathize, I just don't see an 'un-optimized' character being an issue unless Aasharu actively tries to kill us out of spite, and unless he's a lying sack of shit, combat won't even be a major part of this for a while, in which time you can adjust your stats closer to your optimized build.

You don't understand Exalted combat. Aasharu doesn't understand Exalted combat. Let me spell it out to you: This is the game of one-hit wonders on Elder Exalted. Your health boxes don't mean jack unless you're massively twinked for health boxes; most weapons will put you out of the fight, either put you down in one hit, or stack so much Wound penalty upon you that you're no longer competitive as a threat.


It is very easy to throw an overwhelming monster at the PCs without meaning to, and then watching that monster's dice pools slaughter them because you don't have a true grasp of just how powerful the monster is, or how weak the PCs are. There's no easy measure of combat power in Exalted; in D&D, you can look at your player's level, compare it to the CL of the monster, and unless you've massively over or underfunded them, you can be pretty sure what the results will be, barring unusual circumstances like DR nobody can overcome, or SR nobody can overcome with a spell-happy party. In Exalted, there is no such measure. It's easily possible to take a 'stock' monster, throw it at PCs expecting a cakewalk, and wind up with half a party kill if the PCs were unoptomized.


It's not that I expect Aasharu will be an asshole. But I expect that he might well accidently throw something at us that we can't handle.

For once, the writers adage: "Your characters are a part of you, but they're not you" doesn't hold up. This character is supposed to basically be you, flaws and failings and all.

I think I'm adequately demonstrating the case for why I shouldn't have more than Valor 2, then.

I'd like to energetically second this. This is a different kind of game. Exalted can be played as the kind of game you're thinking of. But we're not doing that, and there are other kinds of games within Exalted as well. We're playing one of those other games, not Chungian RPG.net Exalted.

None of which makes "Build like Jon Chung is STing, and hope for fluffy kitten STing" invalid advice; just like "prepare for war, hope for peace" is good advice.


I'm not saying it will be Chungian, I'm saying that I would feel much safer if I could build as if I were preparing for Chungian.

 

[Toptomcat]

I think we've mutually reached the point where we're talking at each other, not to each other. Let's wait a while and say what the ST says to all this.

 

[HowlingCoyote]

I have to agree with both sides in this debate, odd as that sounds. My fears are the same as ShadowDragon's but, at the same time, I built a character on the premise of the game as posted. I have serious reservations about that, for all the reasons cited above (ST: 'oops, I didn't meant to kill the party!').


If I understand the premise correctly, we've been brought to Creation because of our knowledge of the setting and it's secrets. As such, our 'mortal' selves are simple mortals. But, Solar shards are supposed to bind to 'hale hosts' and people with heroic motivations... in other words, heroic mortals (not necessarily the same as Heroic Mortals). I think that discrepancy is what's resulting in the gap between the real us and the kind of Solar we could build if we were building from scratch.


Don't get me wrong, I *like* the mandatory inclusion of flaws and our real-world limitations. But, it doesn't quite result in what Aasharu was going for.

...you will all start off as weak mortals, then become slightly overpowered Exalts.

Rather, we start off as the weak mortals that we are, and then become slightly underpowered Solars, with the option of having really powerful toys (until someone takes them from us).


My suggestion for a solution is to add in a small amount of extra bonus points (5-10, I'd say 8 ) that can only be spent on attributes, favored or caste abilities, virtues, willpower, essence, and favored or caste charms. That's not quite enough to become Chung the Chungian, but it should alleviate that disparity we're seeing.

 

[FluffySquirrel]

I agree with some of the others, I think part of fun will be that we -will- start out as relatively underpowered and unoptimised solars.. .. and all the more fun.. we KNOW just how bad things could get.. it's gonna be hilarious ^^


Soon as we get there, we'd just be racing for perfect defenses and various other stuff to save our asses while we try to actually learn how to be solars.. and will likely be having to rely on each other a hell of a lot more than optimised solars would.. it'll be fun!