fighting deathlords

Kindle said:
As for the Autobot Gods, I tend to agree with you. However, I see them as more or less Fractured parts of him, kind of like the Primordials did in Creation, rather than as separate gods. If they were to die, so would Autochon. In general, it took a whole lot of Exalts to take down the Fractured portions of the other Primordials. I liken the stories of one Exalted killing a primordial to the stories of Hercules and how he held up the world, so that Atlas could get the golden apples for him. Its more a fantastical story, told to bolster the hearts and courage of the masses, than anything else (I'm sure going to get it for saying this, aren't I? :lol: ).
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Autocthon is considered the weakest in raw power when compared to other primordials. So there are 7 yozis we know of and lets say 7 malfeans we don't nkow of. That makes of at leats 112 sub gods equivalents in the primordial war who are around the uncounquered sun in power+ behemoths and the primordials themselves.  


How in the name of creation could the exalted defeat them? Suprise attack or no suprise attack it just doesn't add up. And the numbers I mentioned do not include the races of the primordials children. Keep in mind that the exalted weren't so old and so well equiped as they were in the golden first age.


I think the power of the sub gods is an overstatement unless the elementals dragons and the celestines are a lot weaker than what we assumed.
 
Kindle said:
As for 95% of Lunars beating an Autobot, I have to simply disagree. I have been playing an Autobot in a campaign since the book came out and I've defeated many, many Lunars in one on one combat. That's where Autobots shine, is in one on one fights. I had a 44L soak, from nearly the start of the campaign (Stamina 6 + Articulate Plate 12L + Subcutaneous Armor Plating x3, 9L + The Maker's Advanced Defense Array 20L) and now I'm up to 48L, since I'm now Essence 7. Combine this with Probability Degradation Matrix (for enemies within 30 yards, 10's only count as one success, 1's take away successes and the target number for all rolls is increased by 1), Accelerated Response System (2m for a Full parry) and Celerity Enabling Module (pick a target, can dodge or parry as often as they attack) and I pwned the Lunars that dared attack me...and that's only my defenses. Autobots might not be all that, but they aren't push overs by any stretch of the imagination. Oh, and I also healed 1L every round. If Desperate for essence, I could always shoot them with the energy drain submodule of my Essence pulse cannon (started at 18 essence drain, plus successes on the hit, soakable only using their Permanent Essence) and gain back more essence than I used.
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We aren't talking about your soak monster machine god protocol essence 6-7 alchemical of death. We are talking about a battle between an essence 3 moonsilver alchemical against a Lunar who has his own territory in Creations map! The only lunars that have territories in Creations map are Tamuz, Uka, Ma-Ha suchi, Rakshi and so on... even if he is weaker than them he should be able to defeat an essence 3 alchemical.


Another thing that annoyed me is the 2 Alchemical invade Yu shan. When Yu-shan had already 10 times the normal guard at the said gate. Just to make it clear 10 times the normal guard means 30 celestial Lions at the front, a gate that can not be opened in any way and has an insane soak and number of HL, 60 celestail lions after you open the gate + anybody you came to help them in containing what's invading Yu-shan. But clearly two alchemicals should be able to slay them all, unleash automatons which will bring great disturbance in Yu shan AND return safely home...
 
Sorrow said:
Kindle said:
As for 95% of Lunars beating an Autobot, I have to simply disagree. I have been playing an Autobot in a campaign since the book came out and I've defeated many, many Lunars in one on one combat. That's where Autobots shine, is in one on one fights. I had a 44L soak, from nearly the start of the campaign (Stamina 6 + Articulate Plate 12L + Subcutaneous Armor Plating x3, 9L + The Maker's Advanced Defense Array 20L) and now I'm up to 48L, since I'm now Essence 7. Combine this with Probability Degradation Matrix (for enemies within 30 yards, 10's only count as one success, 1's take away successes and the target number for all rolls is increased by 1), Accelerated Response System (2m for a Full parry) and Celerity Enabling Module (pick a target, can dodge or parry as often as they attack) and I pwned the Lunars that dared attack me...and that's only my defenses. Autobots might not be all that, but they aren't push overs by any stretch of the imagination. Oh, and I also healed 1L every round. If Desperate for essence, I could always shoot them with the energy drain submodule of my Essence pulse cannon (started at 18 essence drain, plus successes on the hit, soakable only using their Permanent Essence) and gain back more essence than I used.
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We aren't talking about your soak monster machine god protocol essence 6-7 alchemical of death. We are talking about a battle between an essence 3 moonsilver alchemical against a Lunar who has his own territory in Creations map! The only lunars that have territories in Creations map are Tamuz, Uka, Ma-Ha suchi, Rakshi and so on... even if he is weaker than them he should be able to defeat an essence 3 alchemical.


Another thing that annoyed me is the 2 Alchemical invade Yu shan. When Yu-shan had already 10 times the normal guard at the said gate. Just to make it clear 10 times the normal guard means 30 celestial Lions at the front, a gate that can not be opened in any way and has an insane soak and number of HL, 60 celestail lions after you open the gate + anybody you came to help them in containing what's invading Yu-shan. But clearly two alchemicals should be able to slay them all, unleash automatons which will bring great disturbance in Yu shan AND return safely home...
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Yeah you sum me feelings up pretty nicely.


I tell grand (as in epic) stories myself... and I know that the biggest problem is to stay realistic in the epicness. The writers clearly failed. What happens if the player characters really meet an alchemical in this campaign. They kill him and then they say, "meh your average abyssal is stronger, no idea how those squishies invaded gem".
 
I've always assumed that the Celestines and the elemental dragons are exactly as noted in the Core book... 1st ed.


With lesser elemental dragons at essence 5-6, the celestines hovering around around 7-8, and if they got some damn creation-wide worship as in the First Age, they'd -might- make it to 9.


And yes.,.. the cap of 10 for essence applies...


Yes... this does mean that the spirits ARE weaker... and likely the component souls of the Primoridal as well... to get higher in power, they need to get trade offs... like say... inmobile.
 
Safim said:
Sorrow said:
Kindle said:
As for 95% of Lunars beating an Autobot, I have to simply disagree. I have been playing an Autobot in a campaign since the book came out and I've defeated many, many Lunars in one on one combat. That's where Autobots shine, is in one on one fights. I had a 44L soak, from nearly the start of the campaign (Stamina 6 + Articulate Plate 12L + Subcutaneous Armor Plating x3, 9L + The Maker's Advanced Defense Array 20L) and now I'm up to 48L, since I'm now Essence 7. Combine this with Probability Degradation Matrix (for enemies within 30 yards, 10's only count as one success, 1's take away successes and the target number for all rolls is increased by 1), Accelerated Response System (2m for a Full parry) and Celerity Enabling Module (pick a target, can dodge or parry as often as they attack) and I pwned the Lunars that dared attack me...and that's only my defenses. Autobots might not be all that, but they aren't push overs by any stretch of the imagination. Oh, and I also healed 1L every round. If Desperate for essence, I could always shoot them with the energy drain submodule of my Essence pulse cannon (started at 18 essence drain, plus successes on the hit, soakable only using their Permanent Essence) and gain back more essence than I used.
Click to expand...
We aren't talking about your soak monster machine god protocol essence 6-7 alchemical of death. We are talking about a battle between an essence 3 moonsilver alchemical against a Lunar who has his own territory in Creations map! The only lunars that have territories in Creations map are Tamuz, Uka, Ma-Ha suchi, Rakshi and so on... even if he is weaker than them he should be able to defeat an essence 3 alchemical.


Another thing that annoyed me is the 2 Alchemical invade Yu shan. When Yu-shan had already 10 times the normal guard at the said gate. Just to make it clear 10 times the normal guard means 30 celestial Lions at the front, a gate that can not be opened in any way and has an insane soak and number of HL, 60 celestail lions after you open the gate + anybody you came to help them in containing what's invading Yu-shan. But clearly two alchemicals should be able to slay them all, unleash automatons which will bring great disturbance in Yu shan AND return safely home...
Click to expand...
Yeah you sum me feelings up pretty nicely.


I tell grand (as in epic) stories myself... and I know that the biggest problem is to stay realistic in the epicness. The writers clearly failed. What happens if the player characters really meet an alchemical in this campaign. They kill him and then they say, "meh your average abyssal is stronger, no idea how those squishies invaded gem".
Click to expand...
Actually... I've been running a game for the past few months, and I have to say that so far... the single alchemical player in my game has managed to steamroll EVERY SINGLE Lunar he's met in one on one combat.


This was accompalished by gaining init and spamming away... and getting insanely good rolls for the attacks. And yes, we used power combat, which meant that the ping wasn't 1.


And yes... that essence 3 alchemical managed to punk an essence 8 lunar with the help of an essence 3 solar*...


This was done due to the fact that the lunar managed to roll REALLY badly on the parry roll... a total of 3 suxx, while the alchemical managed to hit 24 suxx on 23 die. The alchemical then procedded to roll 13 successes on the damage roll. This combined with the previous hits took said lunar down to incapacitated instantly.  :shock:


Said lunar, being an NPC, was taunting them by fighting them one on two in human form and having fun doing so... until that hit.
 
Sorrow said:
Kindle said:
As for the Autobot Gods, I tend to agree with you. However, I see them as more or less Fractured parts of him, kind of like the Primordials did in Creation, rather than as separate gods. If they were to die, so would Autochon. In general, it took a whole lot of Exalts to take down the Fractured portions of the other Primordials. I liken the stories of one Exalted killing a primordial to the stories of Hercules and how he held up the world, so that Atlas could get the golden apples for him. Its more a fantastical story, told to bolster the hearts and courage of the masses, than anything else (I'm sure going to get it for saying this, aren't I? :lol: ).
Click to expand...
Autocthon is considered the weakest in raw power when compared to other primordials. So there are 7 yozis we know of and lets say 7 malfeans we don't nkow of. That makes of at leats 112 sub gods equivalents in the primordial war who are around the uncounquered sun in power+ behemoths and the primordials themselves.  


How in the name of creation could the exalted defeat them? Suprise attack or no suprise attack it just doesn't add up. And the numbers I mentioned do not include the races of the primordials children. Keep in mind that the exalted weren't so old and so well equiped as they were in the golden first age.


I think the power of the sub gods is an overstatement unless the elementals dragons and the celestines are a lot weaker than what we assumed.
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Well it DOES say in 2nD Ed, and I'm sure somewhere in First ED, that Autobot gave the Exalts the weapons to kill the Primordials. That's gotta count for something, even if they were destroyed.
 
So your essence 8 lunar rolled three successes on his parry while he was fighting in human form while the essence 3 alchemical rolled 24 successes on 23 dice? Ahem. Sorry if I don't include this into any statistic.
 
Reminds me of the time our 'master' archer of Essence five did a level five botch (five ones) for a fucking 28 dice attack x.x We have a level system for how fucking bad a botch can be...and well...five is EPIC. So...use your imaginations of what happened to him and everyone in a hundred foot radius...
 
Safim said:
So your essence 8 lunar rolled three successes on his parry while he was fighting in human form while the essence 3 alchemical rolled 24 successes on 23 dice? Ahem. Sorry if I don't include this into any statistic.
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No... THAT was the extreme case, one where things just went horribly wrong in game... complete with plot derailment...


But yes... the other lunars were comparable... build as normal starting lunars (casted and tattooed) and given x-amount of charms to make them (and occassionally higher essence) 'experienced' and they got punked.
 
Haku said:
Safim said:
So your essence 8 lunar rolled three successes on his parry while he was fighting in human form while the essence 3 alchemical rolled 24 successes on 23 dice? Ahem. Sorry if I don't include this into any statistic.
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No... THAT was the extreme case, one where things just went horribly wrong in game... complete with plot derailment...


But yes... the other lunars were comparable... build as normal starting lunars (casted and tattooed) and given x-amount of charms to make them (and occassionally higher essence) 'experienced' and they got punked.
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Can you please come over with the starting stats for this fella? Either the lunar player fails at combat strategy or the alchemical is twinked pretty heavily... I'd bet on the second.
 
Reminds me of the time our 'master' archer of Essence five did a level five botch (five ones) for a fucking 28 dice attack x.x We have a level system for how fucking bad a botch can be...and well...five is EPIC. So...use your imaginations of what happened to him and everyone in a hundred foot radius...
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5 botches? Makes sense, the more dice you have the harder is to botch, but IF you botch while using a huge dice pool you can be sure...it's gona be bad.


In turn it reminds me of the master occultist/socialite who tried to convince the spirit of the road to speed their caravan up at twice the normal pace...and did a triple botch, the spirit hated him eternally after that and for the whole road they went at half the normal pace...they pissed on its road at the end of it.


Also a dawn expert of survival tried to find food when the wyld hunt was on them and tripled botched...
 
Yeah...suffice it say the 'Widowmaker combo' designed to slay an army...well, it slayed an army...just not the right one.
 
Safim said:
Haku said:
Safim said:
So your essence 8 lunar rolled three successes on his parry while he was fighting in human form while the essence 3 alchemical rolled 24 successes on 23 dice? Ahem. Sorry if I don't include this into any statistic.
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No... THAT was the extreme case, one where things just went horribly wrong in game... complete with plot derailment...


But yes... the other lunars were comparable... build as normal starting lunars (casted and tattooed) and given x-amount of charms to make them (and occassionally higher essence) 'experienced' and they got punked.
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Can you please come over with the starting stats for this fella? Either the lunar player fails at combat strategy or the alchemical is twinked pretty heavily... I'd bet on the second.
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It's not so much as fair... but there isn't much you can fucking do when said Alchemical kept getting 15 init (dex + wits + weapon) BEFORE using anima power (+ 6 for scene) and then would every now then boost reflexively his dex with anima power (at 3 motes per dex up to double his dex), stunting back the essence spent.


So... yes... he does have an init of 26 before he rolls init.


His attack die pool is 15 (dex 5, melee 5, ms Beam-klave 5) +5 (anima power! when he can). He tends to flurry with spam attacks, typically 3-5 attacks in 1 turn, and depends on Acelerated Response System (reflexive parry) for defense. Damage was typically 9L if strength isn't boosted with anima power or with charm.


And given that I as the ST was the one on the other end... I avoided custom charms... and yes... heavy DBT lunars are weakened, as super soak is not a valid type of defense in Power Combat (soak of 30, that's nice, I'll ping you to death with essence), and I didn't go with cheese like super soak lunar + heal + hearthstone of wellness or adamant skin.


Which leaves me with going full dodge/parry, or taking the hits and hoping they don't hurt too bad. Granted, there IS Wary Swallow Method and Feline Guard, which works wonders for parries (don't get me started on lunar dodge charms) given that they couldn't  be used after the lunar attacks or does stuff... but remember that both are throwing relatively large pools of dies, and that the lunar HAS to burn the essence first before he can attack, and factor in willpower if he has a combo.


For those lunars with parries, he went with ranged attacks with his Gryo-chakram to wear down their essence pools, and frailing away with beam-klave.


It's possible I'm letting the player go easy... but for a lunar to get any decent charm combination / effects, that requires experience. And this was him at starting, when he met the starting Pack Lunars.


*Shrugs*
 
Well lets just say this wasn't very representative of the average lunar/alchemical fights in creation and be done with it.
 
Uh huh... and how would you catagorize the average duel between a lunar and an alchemical?


I mean the only ones that we know of from the book was between Excessive Blossom (moonsilver alchemical) and Ten Stripes (experienced tattooed lunar)... and you DO remember how THAT ended for the lunar, right?
 
I think we need an EM style challenge for Haku and Safim to finish this arguement >.>
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I'm willing to do that... using some form of live chat for the duel... and the WW die roller for the rolling.
 
Safim said:
Not going to create another character for a fight that probably will never happen :/
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Why not? a character with no history or persona beyond the bare minimums and access to only -canonica- charms/items...


EDIT - and canonical character creation.
 
Starting Lunars against starting alchemical you say? Starting Lunars should own a starting alchemical unless the alchemical has really broken artifacts... But that's not the point. Point is that a poweful Lunar like Ten-stripes shouldn't loose to an essence 3 alchemical.


Perhaps the alchemical player has a powerful combination of charms and artifacts and knows how to play his character much more efficiently than you know how to play a Lunar, whom you use for the first time.


I will post a Lunar and then you will tell me if the alchemical would be able to defeat him. No need to fight :) . Just tell me how much xp and freebies the alchemical has and I will try to make one Lunar with the same. Tell me how many artifact dots I am allowed to have. I will try to make the Lunar as well rounded as possible. Ofcourse full moon Lunars are more or less geared towards combat, but I will give out some xp to non-combat abilities.
 
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