Arynne
Salmon of Doubt
You're beginning to make me want a Manse of my own now... 
[Emperors of the Fading Suns] [Emperors of the Fading Suns] Projects Discussion
- Thread starter xarvh
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cyl
Creepy smile
IIRC it's just a few hours in any given day from sundown to midnight. Demanding, but not especially time consuming.Arynne said:You're beginning to make me want a Manse of my own now...
The main problem with demons is keeping them in line... the humans of Ankss are bound to get severely hurt or at least chewed up a little without a decent containment plan.
Kacie
One Thousand Club
I believe it was Manse 5. Kinda needs to be for the whole flying fortress thing.
Willpower recovers when you sleep; you roll your highest virtue, and the successes are the amount of WP recovered. With Temperance 3, Mirror recovers on average 1.5 WP per 24hrs.
I thought the whole point of PP's was doing stuff that was too tedious to do in game? Sitting around and spending 8hrs to summon a demon once a day is exactly the sort of thing that should be covered by a PP.
In one "season" an Exalt should be able to summon ~100 demons. Demons do not need sleep or food or breaks, and thus can work 24/7, so to speak, unlike the 8hr day of a human. The demons' task is to restore the Manse - they won't be wandering around randomly, they're going to be focused on the manse. Keep the people of Ankss away from the manse, and there is no problem.
Therefore, in one season, an Exalt can summon up a 100 demon workforce that is stronger, specialized in construction, and works all the time compared to a 100 human workers. Looking solely at time, 100 demons = 300 humans, which is about 8/3 to 10/3 yrs of work, or 2.7 to 3.3 yrs.
If Fangs and Mirror spend one season both summoning, that's 2 PP, 200 demons (600 humans), which translates to ~ 1.7 yrs, plus one season to do all the summoning. (And I'm not going to do compound interest on summoned demon's work over one season. Not worth it.) When Fangs & Mirror are a) not summoning, and b) not sleeping, they can be directing & coordinating the work-force.
Siham spending a PP should be able to provide the materials through his wonky crafting stuff.
From there it's a question of how hands-on directing the demons needs to be, or if between the memories of the God and the collective know-how of Fangs, Siham, and Mirror if a comprehensive enough blueprint and work schedule can be drawn up for the demons such that they don't have to supervise. Either that or Fangs & Siham train up a squad of supervisors.
Malfeas will know what's going on, but we're facing being wiped out by Deathlords in the extremely near future, and if we have the time later to worry about Malfeas, then we can train/hire a mortal crew and make revisions to the Manse, enough to throw off the collective knowledge of the demons. Not perfect, but we don't have the luxury of waiting.
Willpower recovers when you sleep; you roll your highest virtue, and the successes are the amount of WP recovered. With Temperance 3, Mirror recovers on average 1.5 WP per 24hrs.
I thought the whole point of PP's was doing stuff that was too tedious to do in game? Sitting around and spending 8hrs to summon a demon once a day is exactly the sort of thing that should be covered by a PP.
In one "season" an Exalt should be able to summon ~100 demons. Demons do not need sleep or food or breaks, and thus can work 24/7, so to speak, unlike the 8hr day of a human. The demons' task is to restore the Manse - they won't be wandering around randomly, they're going to be focused on the manse. Keep the people of Ankss away from the manse, and there is no problem.
Therefore, in one season, an Exalt can summon up a 100 demon workforce that is stronger, specialized in construction, and works all the time compared to a 100 human workers. Looking solely at time, 100 demons = 300 humans, which is about 8/3 to 10/3 yrs of work, or 2.7 to 3.3 yrs.
If Fangs and Mirror spend one season both summoning, that's 2 PP, 200 demons (600 humans), which translates to ~ 1.7 yrs, plus one season to do all the summoning. (And I'm not going to do compound interest on summoned demon's work over one season. Not worth it.) When Fangs & Mirror are a) not summoning, and b) not sleeping, they can be directing & coordinating the work-force.
Siham spending a PP should be able to provide the materials through his wonky crafting stuff.
From there it's a question of how hands-on directing the demons needs to be, or if between the memories of the God and the collective know-how of Fangs, Siham, and Mirror if a comprehensive enough blueprint and work schedule can be drawn up for the demons such that they don't have to supervise. Either that or Fangs & Siham train up a squad of supervisors.
Malfeas will know what's going on, but we're facing being wiped out by Deathlords in the extremely near future, and if we have the time later to worry about Malfeas, then we can train/hire a mortal crew and make revisions to the Manse, enough to throw off the collective knowledge of the demons. Not perfect, but we don't have the luxury of waiting.
Arynne
Salmon of Doubt
Weren't there rules in one of the books for mass demon summonings for building projects and the like?
cyl
Creepy smile
It's in the corebook.
A 5dots Manse = 10 years (with 100 workers).
1st circle demons are stated to be worth 5 mortals there, which makes mass summoning even more interesting.
It can be up in a single year with 200 demons... but it's all the three of you are going to achieve in that whole year (summoning + generating monthly resources + handling the demons)... but with 200 demons summoned within a single season, you're bound to have visits from a/ the death star, b/ siddies assassins, c/ GSPs, d/ bigger guns.
Personally, considering the context and the involvement in the affairs of the Scavenger Lands required if we don't want them to become shadowlands in the coming months, I'd advise spreading it over 2-3 years.
A 5dots Manse = 10 years (with 100 workers).
1st circle demons are stated to be worth 5 mortals there, which makes mass summoning even more interesting.
It can be up in a single year with 200 demons... but it's all the three of you are going to achieve in that whole year (summoning + generating monthly resources + handling the demons)... but with 200 demons summoned within a single season, you're bound to have visits from a/ the death star, b/ siddies assassins, c/ GSPs, d/ bigger guns.
Personally, considering the context and the involvement in the affairs of the Scavenger Lands required if we don't want them to become shadowlands in the coming months, I'd advise spreading it over 2-3 years.
xarvh
Malevolent Entertainer
Willpower recovery is ill-defined at least in the Core, and if you use Virtues for recovery then it is limited to Conviction.
I personally prefer to use "recover 1 every morning", which is just barely enough for a summon a day assuming everything goes well.
The whole point of PP is using a montage for something that would be otherwise boring to write IC.
And to give us an idea of how much effort it takes to complete something.
ie: the PCs ARE doing long and possibly tedious stuff, we just don't write about it.
If Fangs is limited to 1 demon per day, that limit still applies when considering the means to complete a Project.
So, if both Mirror and Fangs spend a season summoning demons (we may have the down time for that) we get 200 demons worth 1000 workers.
This would allow completion of a 5-dots Manse in 1 year.
Since we are just repairing the Manse and the demons will start working already in the first season, we can say that the repairs will be complete two seasons after the last demon has been summoned.
The demons will still require supervision from either Fangs or Siham.
So far:
* Air-aspected
+10 Manse 5
+4 Maintenance (can be covered with demons)
-5 Greater Mobilty (still tethered to the Demesne
-5 Indestructable
-2 Fortress (reduced because overlaps with Indestructable)
-2 = ?
Decide how to use those last 2 points.
An elevator would be 1 point.
The Manse can fly up to 2000m away from the ground, and 10Km away from the vertical of the Demesne.
With all this it would be a 3-points project.
Mirror could contribute to no more than 1 PP, the rest would be up to Fangs and Siham.
I personally prefer to use "recover 1 every morning", which is just barely enough for a summon a day assuming everything goes well.
The whole point of PP is using a montage for something that would be otherwise boring to write IC.
And to give us an idea of how much effort it takes to complete something.
ie: the PCs ARE doing long and possibly tedious stuff, we just don't write about it.
If Fangs is limited to 1 demon per day, that limit still applies when considering the means to complete a Project.
So, if both Mirror and Fangs spend a season summoning demons (we may have the down time for that) we get 200 demons worth 1000 workers.
This would allow completion of a 5-dots Manse in 1 year.
Since we are just repairing the Manse and the demons will start working already in the first season, we can say that the repairs will be complete two seasons after the last demon has been summoned.
The demons will still require supervision from either Fangs or Siham.
So far:
* Air-aspected
+10 Manse 5
+4 Maintenance (can be covered with demons)
-5 Greater Mobilty (still tethered to the Demesne
-5 Indestructable
-2 Fortress (reduced because overlaps with Indestructable)
-2 = ?
Decide how to use those last 2 points.
An elevator would be 1 point.
The Manse can fly up to 2000m away from the ground, and 10Km away from the vertical of the Demesne.
With all this it would be a 3-points project.
Mirror could contribute to no more than 1 PP, the rest would be up to Fangs and Siham.
xarvh
Malevolent Entertainer
BTW, there ARE drawbacks from using demons, but probably not those Cyl imagines.
Kacie
One Thousand Club
I'm very pleased with this assessment; it feels very fair. I am fine with Mirror only being able to spend 1 PP, and if 1PP from each of Mirror, Siham, and Fangs will see the project through to completion, I'm very happy. Especially as I now do have ideas on what to do with the other PP.
I'd say that it's pretty bad to have the Yozi know the ins and outs of your super flying fortress, which is what happens if you only use demons for the work. We may wish to have Siham create some robot/automata or cajole some minor gods/spirits into helping out on the most sensitive sections; not a total fix, but at least buys us some more time.
I'd say that it's pretty bad to have the Yozi know the ins and outs of your super flying fortress, which is what happens if you only use demons for the work. We may wish to have Siham create some robot/automata or cajole some minor gods/spirits into helping out on the most sensitive sections; not a total fix, but at least buys us some more time.
JayTee
Eight Thousand Club
I feel I should point out that I can literally poof in to existence 10,000 meat puppets who's sole purpose in life is to serve and obey me and who have whatever stats I like via Wyld Shaping Technique within a couple of days at most.
Summoning Demons seems hella inefficient to me, but if y'all are dead set on letting that course of action, I wont stop you.
Summoning Demons seems hella inefficient to me, but if y'all are dead set on letting that course of action, I wont stop you.
xarvh
Malevolent Entertainer
That still feels kinda game-breaking.
xarvh
Malevolent Entertainer
Building up the Meat Puppet Army would indeed decrease the needs for the Manse Project, we discussed it some time ago on this thread, what was of that Project?
JayTee
Eight Thousand Club
It's not game breaking, it's how it was intended to be used and why it's there in the first place, to poof in to existence whatever you want/need.
I don't remember what we discussion for prior uses of the meat puppet army.
I don't remember what we discussion for prior uses of the meat puppet army.
xarvh
Malevolent Entertainer
Not meat puppets but robots: http://www.roleplay.zone/threads/projects-discussion.55118/page-27#post-847817
JayTee
Eight Thousand Club
Oh, yeah. Well, considering how they're extras either way, I don't think it really matters if they're meat puppets or robots. I'd go with robots just 'cause it fits Sihams style, but it can go either way and get the same results.
Arynne
Salmon of Doubt
Maybe you could invent a spell for conjuring an army of golems? Like Summoning the Stalwart Servitor x 50?
JayTee
Eight Thousand Club
It's definitely an idea I'd consider. CrazyIvan seems to have disappeared from the interwebs, so I feel like it should pick up Sorcery sooner or later, although not without extensive houseruling.
xarvh
Malevolent Entertainer
There is a drawback in using automatons for the Manse: they would need to be moved all the way from Cross to Ankss. Easier and cleaner than summoning hundreds of Malfeas' own, but still something that needs consideration.
JayTee
Eight Thousand Club
Yeah, but that would take like... a week, maybe two, tops? Much faster than spending an entire season summoning demons.
xarvh
Malevolent Entertainer
You'd need to power them away from the Gate and at least adjust them to be able to travel on the long distance. Natural environments are unforgiving against manmade objects.
JayTee
Eight Thousand Club
Automatons are self-powered, and unless they somehow get stuck or caught in a landslide or whatever, their soak will be high enough to weather whatever they come across. They aren't exactly made of glass.
xarvh
Malevolent Entertainer
Glass would be more impervious to biofouling.
It's not the single event, it's the additional wear.
It's not the single event, it's the additional wear.
xarvh
Malevolent Entertainer
I'm just saying that they will need some design considerations.
JayTee
Eight Thousand Club
Not really, Brass Legion golems can march for days without wear or tear. But if you really want to make a thing out of it I can poof them in to existence with extra protection or whatever else they need.
cyl
Creepy smile
Land shiiiiips !xarvh said:
Problem solved :tongue:
They can also be used to transport the wyld shaped resources to Ankss.
Golems seems more viable than people or demons, assuming you build them to be as efficient as demons, they would cost 5 times more. So for 1000 extras (followers 4), you'd get only 200 golems, which is precisely the amount you need to achieve the same result.
There is one drawback to using golems + wyld shaped resources though... they cost xp (resources 3 per month for unpaid labor + followers 4).
With demons, you at least avoid the investment on golems, but at the same time it will take a whole season to summon them every time you need them to work on something, it's less discrete, and it may have drawbacks.
Golems will always be there unless destroyed or not used during the story, which isn't going to happen soon since we have Mirunda to rebuild, and Ankss & Cross to improve, and very soon Nathir as well.
xarvh
Malevolent Entertainer
That would indeed solve the problem.cyl said:
Not sure about the XP thing though, they don't need to be permanent.
