cyl
Creepy smile
Delegates 
Allies are good too.
Allies are good too.
[Emperors of the Fading Suns] [Emperors of the Fading Suns] Projects Discussion
- Thread starter xarvh
- Start date
JayTee
Eight Thousand Club
Meritocracy. Simultaneously encourages mortals to better themselves and work towards the betterment of our nation while ensuring that we'll always be on top in whatever area we focus on.
cyl
Creepy smile
I'm not a big fan of meritocracy because it can be easily twisted, just like democracy.
It can become more about obtaining power and keeping one's position, focusing on the individual's goals and achievements, instead of the betterment of the whole community.
Political power is a burden, a responsibility, not something you can earn through your actions and certainly not something that can unlock personal advantages.
IMHO it has to stay a duty, that way we will have candidates more dedicated to their job and less interested by their personal careers and agendas (a problem most modern states know to the exception of a few northern states where congressmen can be assaulted in the subway because they don't have a car+driver+bodyguards).
One may try to make himself noticeable, and we should reward prowess to stimulate growth and betterment, but ultimately it is the "wise rulers" who have to pick their allies based on their insight on their personalities and the needs of the community.
A clan or caste system subordinated to the ruling body (the Circle) is probably better suited to promote both solidarity and efficiency.
There is also one concern I have about organized structures: they are easy marks.
If you want to alter the structure it is rather easy to spot who's in charge and influence them (a technique Malek & Melia are very familiar with).
Then the options are limitless; assassination, blackmail, corruption, extortion, kidnapping, poisoning etc etc
Since we can train a lot of people to be fit for duty, we just need to think of a clever way to preserve some sort of "anonymity" to protect the leaders and the structure.
In Mass Combat for example, all our soldiers are equally skilled. If a leader falls, anyone in the unit can take the reins and help the unit holding the line, and that is a great advantage in battle.
We already have exalted and spirits working against us, so I think the best way to protect the dominion structurally is to make the structure as unpredictable as possible.
For example; if we have 150 people trained in the arts of governing, those can become political leaders on short notice if the Circle wants to shuffle the structure.
The key will then be to make this shuffling process as unpredictable as possible, not unlike the laws in Nexus, in order to confuse a potential attacker.
One leader is easy to single out and affect, but if there are several potential leaders and none of them stay in office long enough for an alteration to have any kind of middle to long term effect, then the whole structure can move forward and is protected at the same time.
It can become more about obtaining power and keeping one's position, focusing on the individual's goals and achievements, instead of the betterment of the whole community.
Political power is a burden, a responsibility, not something you can earn through your actions and certainly not something that can unlock personal advantages.
IMHO it has to stay a duty, that way we will have candidates more dedicated to their job and less interested by their personal careers and agendas (a problem most modern states know to the exception of a few northern states where congressmen can be assaulted in the subway because they don't have a car+driver+bodyguards).
One may try to make himself noticeable, and we should reward prowess to stimulate growth and betterment, but ultimately it is the "wise rulers" who have to pick their allies based on their insight on their personalities and the needs of the community.
A clan or caste system subordinated to the ruling body (the Circle) is probably better suited to promote both solidarity and efficiency.
There is also one concern I have about organized structures: they are easy marks.
If you want to alter the structure it is rather easy to spot who's in charge and influence them (a technique Malek & Melia are very familiar with).
Then the options are limitless; assassination, blackmail, corruption, extortion, kidnapping, poisoning etc etc
Since we can train a lot of people to be fit for duty, we just need to think of a clever way to preserve some sort of "anonymity" to protect the leaders and the structure.
In Mass Combat for example, all our soldiers are equally skilled. If a leader falls, anyone in the unit can take the reins and help the unit holding the line, and that is a great advantage in battle.
We already have exalted and spirits working against us, so I think the best way to protect the dominion structurally is to make the structure as unpredictable as possible.
For example; if we have 150 people trained in the arts of governing, those can become political leaders on short notice if the Circle wants to shuffle the structure.
The key will then be to make this shuffling process as unpredictable as possible, not unlike the laws in Nexus, in order to confuse a potential attacker.
One leader is easy to single out and affect, but if there are several potential leaders and none of them stay in office long enough for an alteration to have any kind of middle to long term effect, then the whole structure can move forward and is protected at the same time.
Kacie
One Thousand Club
Seconding JayTee's motion of meritocracy.
cyl
Creepy smile
Voting against.
Too predictable and too easy to tear apart / paralyze / embezzle considering the context.
Too predictable and too easy to tear apart / paralyze / embezzle considering the context.
JayTee
Eight Thousand Club
Any system can be corrupt. The benefit of a meritocracy is that "what benefits cross" is the merit we're judging by.
And I'm not about to buy dots in Bureaucracy just so I can navigate a system safeguarded against assassination and crap like that. There are easier methods of doing that.
And I'm not about to buy dots in Bureaucracy just so I can navigate a system safeguarded against assassination and crap like that. There are easier methods of doing that.
xarvh
Malevolent Entertainer
Problem is, WHO is doing the merit judgement?
"Power to those invested by the Gods" is the most ancient recipe for disaster.
Now, the difference is that these Gods (ie, the PCs) may actually care and intervene, but at this point you'd be just governing by delegates which, if I understand, it's not what you want.
"Power to those invested by the Gods" is the most ancient recipe for disaster.
Now, the difference is that these Gods (ie, the PCs) may actually care and intervene, but at this point you'd be just governing by delegates which, if I understand, it's not what you want.
cyl
Creepy smile
Some systems are hardier to corrupt than other.
Our enemies are extremely dangerous essence users and they already hit Cross hard, and will continue to as the dominion grow.
Also, I was not implying that Siham should invest in Bureaucracy.
IIRC Argis can take care of it, and Malek or his successor will be able to train in this ability among other through the custom Larceny training charms I built.
Since I became the Eclipse it was supposed to be my job to handle this, unfortunately I had other more important investments to make like training soldiers and establishing other supply lines on the fly.
Say the majority favors a Meritocracy: what then do you have in mind to shield a meritocracy and the individuals from someone sent to tear it inside out (like DarthMalek could be) ?
Our enemies are extremely dangerous essence users and they already hit Cross hard, and will continue to as the dominion grow.
Also, I was not implying that Siham should invest in Bureaucracy.
IIRC Argis can take care of it, and Malek or his successor will be able to train in this ability among other through the custom Larceny training charms I built.
Since I became the Eclipse it was supposed to be my job to handle this, unfortunately I had other more important investments to make like training soldiers and establishing other supply lines on the fly.
Say the majority favors a Meritocracy: what then do you have in mind to shield a meritocracy and the individuals from someone sent to tear it inside out (like DarthMalek could be) ?
JayTee
Eight Thousand Club
Body guards, secured locations where they can work, schedules that are kept mostly secret from the general populous. Same thing as every other government, really.
Kacie
One Thousand Club
Do as ancient China did; have a series of tests for placement. Once the tests are created, approved, and in use, it's no longer tied to the Exalted.xarvh said:
xarvh
Malevolent Entertainer
@cyl: Any dedicated Exalt will vanquish any group of mortals in any context, even just because Mortals have basically no defense against social Charms.
I still can't wrap my head around how the Guild pulls this out and am not sure it makes sense.
(Anyway, it would be awesome to have a game where DBs try to take over the Guild or something).
@JayTee: The above is especially true if you want to protect them from physical harm.
The lowliest of the DB will assassinate your representatives regardless of secret routes and guards, without much effort.
I still can't wrap my head around how the Guild pulls this out and am not sure it makes sense.
(Anyway, it would be awesome to have a game where DBs try to take over the Guild or something).
@JayTee: The above is especially true if you want to protect them from physical harm.
The lowliest of the DB will assassinate your representatives regardless of secret routes and guards, without much effort.
xarvh
Malevolent Entertainer
It's what modern China does as well.Kacie said:
The problem is, who decides who passed the test and who does not?
Who updates the tests as things change?
Who ensures that the skills required to pass the (uncheatable) test are the same required to run the city?
JayTee
Eight Thousand Club
If we're going to say "An enemy exalt will take out our mortals no matter what we do", then we might as well never leave cross, because once we do, our government is dead. So, we either need to find a way to safeguard our government against exalts, or just flat out take that chance.
xarvh
Malevolent Entertainer
My point is that you are willing to consider assassination (which would attract a lot of attention from the PCs) rather than infiltration or manipulation.
JayTee
Eight Thousand Club
Oh, that's easy to handle:
1: Write a code of conduct
2: Reward those who go out of their way to keep to that code
3: Heavily reward those who report people who break the code, or who report others who try to convince them to break the code.
1: Write a code of conduct
2: Reward those who go out of their way to keep to that code
3: Heavily reward those who report people who break the code, or who report others who try to convince them to break the code.
xarvh
Malevolent Entertainer
Break it: use the code of conduct to destroy your political opponents, reap the rewards, and bring the machine to a standstill because everyone is afraid to break the code of conduct.
As an alternative, sieze control of those who judge whether the code has been broken or not.
As an alternative, sieze control of those who judge whether the code has been broken or not.
cyl
Creepy smile
I'm all for finding a way to increase security within the dominion and in the government, and obviously not one bit for taking chances.JayTee said:
My point about "shuffling the rulers" was that if you introduce a little chaos and makes things less predictable, it effectively makes essence users less dangerous
For starters, the system is harder to figure out so it will take longer for a spy to understand how it rolls, giving us more opportunities to detect him (detecting essence users being the key here )
Secondly, with a larger group of potential rulers and regular rotation we gain continuity.
Even if one ruler is taken down we have XXX more of them ready to step in.
Finally, the greater the number of people trained in the arts of governing, the harder it will be to identify the targets and take our government down.
One saboteur can take a whole group or one ruler down once, but he cannot repeat that feat several times without risking detection / capture / death.
Which is why I think prudent planning, training people and having several back ups is preferable to Meritocracy.
Kacie
One Thousand Club
Cyl, why do you think a meritocracy wouldn't train people to step into their place? That's part of being promoted is making sure your replacement is well-trained.
Clear lines of command do make it easier for your enemies, but are a godsend for your people. Meritocracy gives them incentive to work. Everything can be corrupted. If Malek wants to babysit, more power to him, he's welcome to it.
Clear lines of command do make it easier for your enemies, but are a godsend for your people. Meritocracy gives them incentive to work. Everything can be corrupted. If Malek wants to babysit, more power to him, he's welcome to it.
JayTee
Eight Thousand Club
@xarvh: Step off my turn, son. Being a contrary bastard is the domain of the PCs :tongue: (and also, Common sense rules. If you think someone is abusing the code for their own personal gain, report it and have an investigation done)
@cyl: Complexity for the sake of paranoia is bad design, simpler/elegant solutions are better.
@cyl: Complexity for the sake of paranoia is bad design, simpler/elegant solutions are better.
cyl
Creepy smile
Not if they have to fear for their lives, no.
No one wants to sit on a throne when kings die like flies.
Alternatively if you don't rotate the members of the social group it's easy for an exalt to paralyze it and implement ideas in their minds.
Ideas like "strikes", "demonstrations", "disobedience", "betrayal", and ultimately "rebellion".
Renewing the people in charge regularly and randomly ensures that the corruption doesn't paralyze the system for too long, and that the corrupting agent has to stay on site because the next month / week / day, his work is already undone.
If you leave people in office for too long, then you need to regularly check them for signs of influence and corruption... which takes time and requires an exalt.
xarvh
Malevolent Entertainer
Being a PC, you don't get to call the ST "son". =P
Also, as an ST, it is my duty to warn you of obvious flaws in your plans, even just because (as much as I try to be objective) reality is MY brain, not yours, and I know how my brain works better than you do.
Also, as an ST, it is my duty to warn you of obvious flaws in your plans, even just because (as much as I try to be objective) reality is MY brain, not yours, and I know how my brain works better than you do.
xarvh
Malevolent Entertainer
Anyway, you guys are facing problems that every social group since Homo Erectus has been facing, and this is awesome and amusing and entertaining. =D
cyl
Creepy smile
@JayTee : oh I find my solution rather simple.
It has only 2 steps, one of which Malek or Argis can easily handle
- put everything in place to detect foreign essence users (only the hardcore will sneak past by our security)
- train a large group of rulers and install a random rotation controlled by exalts to constantly renew the group to limit corruption (as in "things not working good") and ensure continuity.
That way the only solution for a saboteur to take down the whole government is to identify and corrupt every single potential ruler we have trained, which will take months.
And I forgot to elaborate on that:
That is very convenient for normal people and bad guys alike, which is why it still stands I believe.
A lot of people are backing it up and making sure it works properly.
Take that comic where Arianna dines with the Prince and they cut the meat from the standing undead cow, I wouldn't be surprised at all if you told me a Prince Merchant was sitting at that table.
It has only 2 steps, one of which Malek or Argis can easily handle
- put everything in place to detect foreign essence users (only the hardcore will sneak past by our security)
- train a large group of rulers and install a random rotation controlled by exalts to constantly renew the group to limit corruption (as in "things not working good") and ensure continuity.
That way the only solution for a saboteur to take down the whole government is to identify and corrupt every single potential ruler we have trained, which will take months.
This former student of constitutions and governmental structures enjoys the transposition to the Exalted universe very much.xarvh said:
And I forgot to elaborate on that:
The Guild has no code of conduct, if you want to buy it and can pay the price, they'll bring it to you, discretely even if you pay an extra.
That is very convenient for normal people and bad guys alike, which is why it still stands I believe.
A lot of people are backing it up and making sure it works properly.
Take that comic where Arianna dines with the Prince and they cut the meat from the standing undead cow, I wouldn't be surprised at all if you told me a Prince Merchant was sitting at that table.
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Kacie
One Thousand Club
The problem with a convoluted chain of command is that you may wound yourself worse than the enemy can.
If the people in the system are confused as to who's in charge, then the enemy has already won.
For example - the Scarlet Empire. The Scarlet Empress confused the lines of control - it was obvious she was in control, but after her, it's entirely unclear who has rank over whom. Chaos and greed give a likely result of civil war.
Lunars set up an almost entirely hands-off system - they don't so much rule as set up societies and see which one works best. (Tirana being an exception to the Thousand Streams.)
I assume the PCs want more hands-on than the Thousand Streams method. Therefore, it makes sense for them to set up the initial structure of government and advancement, and check back in on it every so often or when a crisis hits. They set up the tests, decide what constitutes "passing" and how well, and then set some level of flexibility to answers, using statistics, cleverness, or whatever they want to excel and be important in their government. (An Exalt might want the most clever and best cheaters to excel, for example!) They then set up a tribunal, panel, or some other institution (with its own selection criteria) to judge the results of tests.
That's a broad recipe for a bureaucratic meritocracy. If the test expectations are widely known and the subjects well-versed, there should be many applicants that would be acceptable, leading to a wide pool in case of catstrophy.
To guard against greed/corruption: design the system such that the positive incentives are greater than the incentives to cheat. For example of how not to do things: if you overrun your budget, you may get to draw on surplus/rainy day funds, and despite a verbal lashing, functionally you exceeded your budget with negligible penalties. If you come in under budget, instead of getting rewarded, the high-ups think you need less money next year - functionally your reward is a budget cut! (this is an actual, greatly-simplified example from my work)
Instead, if those who come in under budget also manage to meet or exceed the requirements of the project, they should receive a bonus and a recommendation to work on bigger projects/ have extra weight given to their next proposal. Those who overrun have demerits against receiving new projects/grants, unless they can demonstrate outstanding circumstances why their project overran.
(I submit this in lieu of getting to post IC.)
If the people in the system are confused as to who's in charge, then the enemy has already won.
For example - the Scarlet Empire. The Scarlet Empress confused the lines of control - it was obvious she was in control, but after her, it's entirely unclear who has rank over whom. Chaos and greed give a likely result of civil war.
Lunars set up an almost entirely hands-off system - they don't so much rule as set up societies and see which one works best. (Tirana being an exception to the Thousand Streams.)
I assume the PCs want more hands-on than the Thousand Streams method. Therefore, it makes sense for them to set up the initial structure of government and advancement, and check back in on it every so often or when a crisis hits. They set up the tests, decide what constitutes "passing" and how well, and then set some level of flexibility to answers, using statistics, cleverness, or whatever they want to excel and be important in their government. (An Exalt might want the most clever and best cheaters to excel, for example!) They then set up a tribunal, panel, or some other institution (with its own selection criteria) to judge the results of tests.
That's a broad recipe for a bureaucratic meritocracy. If the test expectations are widely known and the subjects well-versed, there should be many applicants that would be acceptable, leading to a wide pool in case of catstrophy.
To guard against greed/corruption: design the system such that the positive incentives are greater than the incentives to cheat. For example of how not to do things: if you overrun your budget, you may get to draw on surplus/rainy day funds, and despite a verbal lashing, functionally you exceeded your budget with negligible penalties. If you come in under budget, instead of getting rewarded, the high-ups think you need less money next year - functionally your reward is a budget cut! (this is an actual, greatly-simplified example from my work)
Instead, if those who come in under budget also manage to meet or exceed the requirements of the project, they should receive a bonus and a recommendation to work on bigger projects/ have extra weight given to their next proposal. Those who overrun have demerits against receiving new projects/grants, unless they can demonstrate outstanding circumstances why their project overran.
(I submit this in lieu of getting to post IC.)
cyl
Creepy smile
I am not challenging the good elements tied to Meritocracy at all.
I think it's a good system and it gives good results... in theory... when you're left alone and no one comes to hack your system to pieces to slow you down.
My first concern is to make the government more enduring than regular social structures which Exalts like Malek can tear apart for breakfast.
No matter what system you plan on building, or how good people feel about it, a saboteur will take it all down with social charms regardless of incentives unless you can do something to counteract his action.
Exalts are simple that way. Mortals can't beat them, armies can't beat them, societies can't beat them.
But we have ways to make their sabotage work harder.
I knew this random thing I had going on had to come from somewhere, and writing this post I remembered the source.
It's from a man-wa called Shin Angyo Onshi (excellent source of inspiration for Exalted if you haven't read it).
During the final battles (armies of demons vs humanity), the hero is bound to be defeated by his arch nemesis because he can read the hero's mind and anticipates his strategy.
The hero, a very clever guy, then does something unexpected, he builds a game of dice to give his orders, depriving his arch nemesis of the ability to read his mind.
At first it's a disaster because his orders are completely incoherent, and many die, but as the battle rages on, the arch nemesis is completely confused because he doesn't understand what's happening, and ultimately he has to retreat his forces because the heroes and the troops kick ass, and I won't spoil more than that
This is a different situation, but the same principle still work.
If exalts can attack individuals and groups alike, then to protect the individuals, the ruling body, and the system, we have to change the people in office regularly without interrupting the work.
That way, it will be almost impossible to slow our progress.
Let me detail the way I see this thing working:
- the Council makes the general rules and laws, with common sense as a guide
- someone trains a sizable group of future potential candidates for office (during the selection process we can use meritocracy if needs be, but really, we can make a cunning politician and clever ruler out of the dumbest swamp guy, all we need is a few weeks )
- the Council then delegates enough decision-making and executive powers to the rulers and officials (Mayor and Deputies) so that the Exalt don't have to micro manage everything
- we use this list of highly trained people and combine it with a random rotation, shuffling their functions regularly and limiting the time of their mandate to avoid too much exposure
- every member of the "government caste" will have another activity / function in the dominion, to continue working when he's not summoned to work at the City Hall.
There will be very little confusion for the people because they will know the people who can become rulers and officials - they'll be their neighbors, bosses, coworkers, friends, lovers etc etc - and the general rules will be set by the Council anyway.
They will take regular and completely random shifts in the administrative offices according to the Council's designs (or their delegates if you want to leave the exalts out of this one), and that way, these constant renewals and updates maintain the integrity of the system.
It has several benefits outside of just being very confusing and hard to attack for enemies:
1- a larger group of citizens is implicated in politics, with a much higher participation rate
2- civil service is considered an honorable duty and promoted as such
3- you avoid careerists and people who are in it only for the money / power / fame / advantages
All members of the government castes are equals, and every citizen can become part of it on the next recruiting process.
4- No one is left behind, there is no competition, no one loses, every one wins doing his duty, and it promotes solidarity and interdependence, as well as the enlightenment that comes with being part of something greater than being on your own.
The incentive then becomes serving the community to the best of your abilities for a limited period of time, with the security that everything has been done to protect you, and more importantly, your community.
The members of the government caste will still have their own lives and personalities, but part of their day will be dedicated to keep up with the activities of the office, and when their names come up on the list of "people who are to work at the city hall this week", they put on their "I LOVE MY CITY" polo and go to work whistling happily as they go work their asses off for the greater good.
@xarvh : reading bureacracy and social charms again I'm not sure that rotating people at the office will protect the office itself. Can you confirm that please ?
The descriptions mention, social units / organization.
If an exalt commits essence to a group, logically if the group isn't composed of the same people, then the charm ceases to work, doesn't it ?
The way I see it it's kind of like a flurry breaker, you can't touch what's not there anymore.
The essence affects the people, not the desks
I think it's a good system and it gives good results... in theory... when you're left alone and no one comes to hack your system to pieces to slow you down.
My first concern is to make the government more enduring than regular social structures which Exalts like Malek can tear apart for breakfast.
No matter what system you plan on building, or how good people feel about it, a saboteur will take it all down with social charms regardless of incentives unless you can do something to counteract his action.
Exalts are simple that way. Mortals can't beat them, armies can't beat them, societies can't beat them.
But we have ways to make their sabotage work harder.
I knew this random thing I had going on had to come from somewhere, and writing this post I remembered the source.
It's from a man-wa called Shin Angyo Onshi (excellent source of inspiration for Exalted if you haven't read it).
During the final battles (armies of demons vs humanity), the hero is bound to be defeated by his arch nemesis because he can read the hero's mind and anticipates his strategy.
The hero, a very clever guy, then does something unexpected, he builds a game of dice to give his orders, depriving his arch nemesis of the ability to read his mind.
At first it's a disaster because his orders are completely incoherent, and many die, but as the battle rages on, the arch nemesis is completely confused because he doesn't understand what's happening, and ultimately he has to retreat his forces because the heroes and the troops kick ass, and I won't spoil more than that
This is a different situation, but the same principle still work.
If exalts can attack individuals and groups alike, then to protect the individuals, the ruling body, and the system, we have to change the people in office regularly without interrupting the work.
That way, it will be almost impossible to slow our progress.
I disagree.
Let me detail the way I see this thing working:
- the Council makes the general rules and laws, with common sense as a guide
- someone trains a sizable group of future potential candidates for office (during the selection process we can use meritocracy if needs be, but really, we can make a cunning politician and clever ruler out of the dumbest swamp guy, all we need is a few weeks
)- the Council then delegates enough decision-making and executive powers to the rulers and officials (Mayor and Deputies) so that the Exalt don't have to micro manage everything
- we use this list of highly trained people and combine it with a random rotation, shuffling their functions regularly and limiting the time of their mandate to avoid too much exposure
- every member of the "government caste" will have another activity / function in the dominion, to continue working when he's not summoned to work at the City Hall.
There will be very little confusion for the people because they will know the people who can become rulers and officials - they'll be their neighbors, bosses, coworkers, friends, lovers etc etc - and the general rules will be set by the Council anyway.
They will take regular and completely random shifts in the administrative offices according to the Council's designs (or their delegates if you want to leave the exalts out of this one), and that way, these constant renewals and updates maintain the integrity of the system.
It has several benefits outside of just being very confusing and hard to attack for enemies:
1- a larger group of citizens is implicated in politics, with a much higher participation rate
2- civil service is considered an honorable duty and promoted as such
3- you avoid careerists and people who are in it only for the money / power / fame / advantages
All members of the government castes are equals, and every citizen can become part of it on the next recruiting process.
4- No one is left behind, there is no competition, no one loses, every one wins doing his duty, and it promotes solidarity and interdependence, as well as the enlightenment that comes with being part of something greater than being on your own.
The incentive then becomes serving the community to the best of your abilities for a limited period of time, with the security that everything has been done to protect you, and more importantly, your community.
The members of the government caste will still have their own lives and personalities, but part of their day will be dedicated to keep up with the activities of the office, and when their names come up on the list of "people who are to work at the city hall this week", they put on their "I LOVE MY CITY" polo and go to work whistling happily as they go work their asses off for the greater good.
@xarvh : reading bureacracy and social charms again I'm not sure that rotating people at the office will protect the office itself. Can you confirm that please ?
The descriptions mention, social units / organization.
If an exalt commits essence to a group, logically if the group isn't composed of the same people, then the charm ceases to work, doesn't it ?
The way I see it it's kind of like a flurry breaker, you can't touch what's not there anymore.
The essence affects the people, not the desks
