[Emperors of the Fading Suns] [Emperors of the Fading Suns] OOC Thread

[CrazyIvan]

So, I'm just going to sit over here with my non-mass combat friends. :tongue:

Suddenly, a teeming mass of research assistants burst forth from the supply closet, screaming in unison "Where's My Stipend!?"

 

[xarvh]

@Feantari: Fangs is not a special character, is the whole troop.


Technically, Mirror is ordering her troops to cast a spell, since every single one of them is able to cast it.

 

[Feantari]

Well right, that's why this is a weird edge case.

 

[JayTee]

Suddenly, a teeming mass of research assistants burst forth from the supply closet, screaming in unison "Where's My Stipend!?"

Then I issue a command phrase that shuts down the Genesis/Magitech cyborgs that I created, and get to work looking for whatever bug caused them to think that they were actually people. :mad:

 

[CrazyIvan]

So yeah, my take-away from this is three:


1. I hate edge cases. I really do.


2. It would be nice if Warstriders were represented as a unit of some magnitude. We may be envisioning them as special units, but right now, on the ground, there's only a single Warstrider any of us is wielding with any degree of regularity. My suggestion is a Magnitude of the Warstrider's cost (3 for a Common, 5 for a Colossus or Royal). That makes it manifestly inferior to Emperor Ox Expansion, but on roughly the same scale.


3. I think I'm alright with the content of the Mass Combat rules, especially given that most others seem satisfied with them, but yeah...totally avoiding Mass Combat in the future.

 

[Feantari]

So yeah, my take-away from this is three:
1. I hate edge cases. I really do.


2. It would be nice if Warstriders were represented as a unit of some magnitude. We may be envisioning them as special units, but right now, on the ground, there's only a single Warstrider any of us is wielding with any degree of regularity. My suggestion is a Magnitude of the Warstrider's cost (3 for a Common, 5 for a Colossus or Royal). That makes it manifestly inferior to Emperor Ox Expansion, but on roughly the same scale.


3. I think I'm alright with the content of the Mass Combat rules, especially given that most others seem satisfied with them, but yeah...totally avoiding Mass Combat in the future.

I think those values are reasonable. The white treatise has a hound of five winds as mag 3, I'd think a common or scout 'strider should be about that.

 

[xarvh]

A Magnitude will just add to the damage and half of it to the Speed of the unit.


Since warstrider deal already enormous amount of damage, I'm not sure it would be worth the Speed increase.

 

[cyl]

The original build of Cunning Fangs should have been a nightmare in Mass Combat. White Reaper is a mass combat martial art, and Sorcery is a mass combat scale discipline.
Warstriders aren't actually all that demanding - you keep talking about mobility and fatigue values. Cunning Fangs is a Lunar, she has no mobility penalties, and we've yet to be in a battle long enough for fatigue to come into play.

She still is a nightmare as a special character in a unit.
Since she doesn't have a single dot in War, she can't handle herself in the heart of chaos, so no leading units or fighting alone in a battle for her.


That was already true with the original MC.


To be efficient, Fangs has to be part of a unit and follow a leader. Then she can indeed prove to be a nightmare as an extremely powerful special character.


As for the mobility penalty, you can indeed get rid of it, but that only works when night falls.

@Feantari: Fangs is not a special character, is the whole troop.
Technically, Mirror is ordering her troops to cast a spell, since every single one of them is able to cast it.

I disagree, the fact that Fangs turned into a giant thingy does not prevent Mirror from fighting.


They can fight side by side, Fangs protecting Mirror, Mirror protecting Fangs' legs for example. (I want to kill myself for calling the reference, but remember the Transformers movies )


The only difficulty was to consider Fangs' stats for the unit, but that could have been easily solved with a simple equation: (Mirror + Fangs) /2.


The fact that Mirror is the leader does not magically separate her from the troops.


She is still part of the unit, she does not just give orders, she also fights in the dirt.

 

[xarvh]

@cyl: I want to be able to handle decently as many things as possible with as little rules as possible.


The fact that the rules we are using now are (sorta) handling an edge case without needing any major tweak, is a huge success.


Indeed, the house rules (2 pages worth of stuff) handle MORE than the vanilla ones (11 pages, correct for more verbose description).


I can assure you, by adding an "(A + B)/2" exception you'd be opening a huge can of worms.

 

[cyl]

I can assure you, by adding an "(A + B)/2" exception you'd be opening a huge can of worms.

I hardly see how that would have made things unmanageable.


You have to consider that there is a possibility that several exalts may find themselves fighting together in a single Magnitude 1 unit at one point or another, so we need to have a way to figure how the Soldier Average handles this type of situation... since it might come up again.


We can't just turn this type of unit into the same thing that is created with the spell Unity of the Close Fist (you take the best of all the traits), so the easiest way to handle that is to make a ratio.

A Magnitude will just add to the damage and half of it to the Speed of the unit.
Since warstrider deal already enormous amount of damage, I'm not sure it would be worth the Speed increase.

That is true, and you also have to consider that the Warstrider can't loose dots of Magnitude anyway... and if one or several warstriders were to be in a unit, calculating its Magnitude would prove to be rather complicated.


I'd rather have them handled as special characters making extra solo attacks if they are in a mixed unit or as a full warstriders unit.

 

[xarvh]

I hardly see how that would have made things unmanageable.

More rules, more mess.


Also, as my attempt to house rule demonstrates, it takes time for everyone to get acquainted with new stuff.

You have to consider that there is a possibility that several exalts may find themselves fighting together in a single Magnitude 1 unit at one point or another, so we need to have a way to figure how the Soldier Average handles this type of situation... since it might come up again.

Enters the magic of arithmetic average: Leader + (A + B + C + ...)/N


This is what "Soldier Average" stands for, and it's something you have to calculate anyway in vanilla MC.

 

[cyl]

Then the crazy couple unit traits should look something like:


Magnitude 1


Speed 4


Attack 6+12 (Mirror 15, Fangs is at least at 9) = 18


DV 3 + 6 (Mirror is at PDV 7 Fangs is at least at PDV 5) = 9


Damage 4 + at the very least 12 = 16L /1


Rate: 1


Armor 15 + Soak 1 (drill) = 16


HLs: 7+2 (valor 2+1 halved)


And on top of that, Fangs can make her extra solo attack once per action of the unit adding even more damage


Is that vaguely accurate ?

 

[Feantari]

If the special character is boosting the average I don't think they get a separate attack, but I'd have to double check...

 

[cyl]

Special Characters


* Max [Magnitude] Special Characters in a Unit.


* Must stick with the Unit and act at the same tick.


* Attacks with the normal stats (Dex+Ability) but Ability is capped by the Leader's War.

A SC still has the ability to attack on his own when he's in a unit.


It doesn't matter if there are 8 guys in the unit or just 2, the SC has the right to make his extra attack.


That makes sense in a way because not all exalts are cut for being unit leaders and sometimes, they may have to fight under a npc's command.


The SC system allows non leaders to still take part in the battles, so there is no reason why we shouldn't apply it regardless of the number of troops.


Additionally if there was another exalt with the couple, they would have to choose who would be the SC.

 

[cyl]

Also I really want Malek to be BFF with Fangs & Mirror so I can enroll then into a magnitude 2 unit and it can enjoy their ridiculously damaging extra attacks.

 

[xarvh]

Two averaged fighters will lose against the same fighters not averaged, because their maximum suxx goes down and defense trumps offense.


@cyl: can we close this about averaging? It adds to the confusion we have in the thread. I'll be happy to discuss it via IM or in a separate thread, maybe in the Exalted Discussion Forum.

 

[JayTee]

So, I found Siham's theme song. One of them, at least.


[media]



[/media]
Now I just need a Changing Moon Lunar mate to be the Dee Dee to my Dexter, and everything will be perfect.

 

[cyl]

Two averaged fighters will lose against the same fighters not averaged, because their maximum suxx goes down and defense trumps offense.
@cyl: can we close this about averaging? It adds to the confusion we have in the thread. I'll be happy to discuss it via IM or in a separate thread, maybe in the Exalted Discussion Forum.

Sure thing boss.

 

[xarvh]

Thanks mate.


Now, if only I hadn't overwritten the stats of the labyrinth horrors, pushing forward this game would be MUCH easier.

 

[Kacie]

I have no idea when/how Fangs & Mirror are going to sync back up and be able to interact with the other PCs.


Whenever they can do that, if the Immaculates and the Crown of Heaven hasn't been dealt with, that's something with which Fangs & Mirror could help. Fangs has the dream communication spell (allows 2way talking, no interception), which would allow them to coordinate with Argis et all on an ambush, without the spy being able to know.


I say the Immaculates, because likely there's a spy, either a person, hidden device, or a spell, that alerts the Immaculates to a situation where they could pick off one or two Anathema and not face all the PCs at once. Fool the spy, lure the Immaculates, hit hard.


Of course there's no need to wait for Fangs & Mirror to put such a plan into action.


I haven't forgotten about Legion, either - but I bet she's going to be harder to lure out, and she probably doesn't have spy whom we can exploit in this way (silent communication via dreams or Wind-Carried Words).

 

[Feantari]

Argis probably needs some influence from the kill it dead crowd on this issue, because he's not inclined that way and still trying to deal with having just killed someone.

 

[Kacie]

If you'd prefer that the Immaculates be captured instead of killed, that can be the goal. Then we'd get a chance to talk to them and 1) find out why they are so persistent when there are far worse threats out there (see Fall of Lookshy) and 2) attempt to talk them into at least being neutral, if not helpful.


Mirror, at least, doesn't feel the need to kill Immaculates. Fangs might strongly disagree. (I can't speak for the other PCs, but I suspect those who survived the initial terror from the skies hunt, ie Malek, might have a strong grudge.)


I really like how you've portrayed Argis in this dual with Fangs, over in "Stone, Rain, and Silence", and in Ripping Roots, once Five Onyx Dreams rescued Kalek & Argis. He's being/becoming the embodiment of the enlightened martial artist, consistently and compelling.

 

[cyl]

I have no idea when/how Fangs & Mirror are going to sync back up and be able to interact with the other PCs.

That's what happens when you dive into the Labyrinth.
Have you told anyone you were going there... just in case ?

Mirror, at least, doesn't feel the need to kill Immaculates. Fangs might strongly disagree. (I can't speak for the other PCs, but I suspect those who survived the initial terror from the skies hunt, ie Malek, might have a strong grudge.)

Indeed, if you want to spare the immaculates, capture and release them before Malek comes back.


If you don't he will kill them in their cells if he has to.


Those bastards killed dozens of exiles from Mirunda when we were on the run and they did it just to draw us out in the open.


They've hit hard on desperate people, showing not the slightest ounce of mercy, behaving themselves like servants of the void would, so he's not about to forgive and forget so soon.


They have the second place in his kill list, right after Legion.

 

[xarvh]

@Kacie: you guys will have a few opportunities to join back to the fold, don't worry.

 

[Kacie]

@xarvh: thanks, I wasn't worried. I figured there'd be opportunities.


My preface was more to say "hey guys, here's a plan, but you guys might implement it (or a different plan) before we get back."